Opinions please on football club supplying to papers

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hey all.

I posted back in August about a local non league club asking me to take match day pictures (for free) , I’m a novice and was happy for the practise, they did say the odd one may be in the local gazette paper and on their Twitter/Facebook, which I agreed to, as long as I was given credit.

Well fast forward a few months and they are in almost every week of the local paper (with credit), a little frustrating but no big deal, and I’ve just seen a two page spread in the independent sport section, not sure how wide spread it is ?

I do have the pages but not sure if I can post ???

Should I just accept it and be happy for the club and the press they are receiving or should I say something, I’m not rich and anything I get I save for more gear but it’s all practise which I need, even now I’m getting slightly better but I’d only give myself 5/10 maybe.

Opionions please ??
 
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Well I don't know much about the situation as regards copyright, I would assume you have it as you took the pics. It is one thing to have them published in the local rag but an independant should pay for the use of your images.
Maybe Kipax can chirp in here as he is the sports expert.
 
It is one thing to have them published in the local rag but an independant should pay for the use of your images..

Not quite sure why your seperating the two.. they are both papers making money and local rags are usually owned by the far bigger companies anyway.. it's all the same and they should all pay..

Local rag.. pictures go with article... the person writing the article gets paid.. the person putting the paper together gets paid.. the people supplying the paper and printing gets paid... the tea lady and cleaner at the office get paid... Hell even the teenager delivering the papers gets paid... and the local rag makes money/profit ...
 
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It depends on what your purpose was for taking and supplying the images.
I used to shoot a sunday football league team because my friends played for them, We submitted match reports and I got paid the large amount of £15 per image used in the local rag, which went to the team to help pay pitch/ref fees etc.
 
My local newspaper / website now make the clubs write their own report and attach photos... no write up submitted by club .... no publicity. I was in your situation last season, i wasn't getting paid and The Sun online published 5 photos of mine. a number of emails to the paper and they claimed that they were given them by the club, they thought club owned them. they wouldn't pay and took photos down.

Hard lesson learnt and this season have spoken to club and they pay me for my photos.
 
You've learnt an important lesson here, and a lesson that every photographer should heed novice or otherwise.

DONT WORK FOR FREE.

I understand but if I’m not good enough to charge but the only way to get better is practise, something has to give a little

It depends on what your purpose was for taking and supplying the images.
I used to shoot a sunday football league team because my friends played for them, We submitted match reports and I got paid the large amount of £15 per image used in the local rag, which went to the team to help pay pitch/ref fees etc.

This, the team asked for a photographer to cover match days but couldn’t pay, they wanted to submit some with the match report and for Twitter/Facebook, I contacted them and agreed I’d never done this before and would try for them.

My local newspaper / website now make the clubs write their own report and attach photos... no write up submitted by club .... no publicity. I was in your situation last season, i wasn't getting paid and The Sun online published 5 photos of mine. a number of emails to the paper and they claimed that they were given them by the club, they thought club owned them. they wouldn't pay and took photos down.

Hard lesson learnt and this season have spoken to club and they pay me for my photos.

This is almost exactly my case, to get anything in the local paper, they have to submit a match report with a picture or two or nothing submitted, no publicity, I understand this and the club is run by volunteers and sponsorship, they submitted them to the independent, I assume as they are the only ppl to have unwatermarked version, but they still have my copyright info in exif.

Do you mind me asking about how/what you charged per pic, per game, per publicised pic etc ?
 
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As I see it, you haven't got anywhere to go with this.

You agreed to provide PR images FOC to the club to use for their own publicity. You didn't state where they could be used and they've done exactly what was agreed.

As for a byeline, newspapers have a specific exemption in the CDPA 1988 from the requirement to credit the author of a work (Section 79 5 & 6).
 
I understand but if I’m not good enough to charge but the only way to get better is practise, something has to give a little

Someone thinks your photos are good enough for publication - no more free work

We are often our own worst critics, but sometimes we just need to let someone else decide, and in publishing your work someone else has.

D
 
As I see it, you haven't got anywhere to go with this.

You agreed to provide PR images FOC to the club to use for their own publicity. You didn't state where they could be used and they've done exactly what was agreed.

As for a byeline, newspapers have a specific exemption in the CDPA 1988 from the requirement to credit the author of a work (Section 79 5 & 6).

I understand and they did credit me, I’m not thinking of anything for this but going forward, maybe I should just be happy, I’m getting practise and if they are printing, I must be getting better but just feel a little used as it’s 3-4 hrs of my time travelling and game tine, then a few hours sorting and uploading, happy to help but newspapers, as KIPAX said, get paid, everyone gets paid.

Someone thinks your photos are good enough for publication - no more free work

We are often our own worst critics, but sometimes we just need to let someone else decide, and in publishing your work someone else has.

D
Agreed, but maybe the fact it’s free is the reason they print ?

Do you guys know if I can post the articles here ?
 
B5B3B108-6888-4851-A09D-9C369C9CAC4C.jpeg 5E3FE9CB-31CD-4F98-9045-A58EECE20390.jpeg These are the articles, two page spread, MODS please remove if not allowed.
Kind of annoying as I don’t even think they are very good, of the hundreds they have, these would be in my bottom 20% :banghead:
 
... I must be getting better but just feel a little used as it’s 3-4 hrs of my time travelling and game tine, then a few hours sorting and uploading, happy to help but newspapers, as KIPAX said, get paid, everyone gets paid.

You need to face the fact that the paper is never ever going to pay for images at this level of sport. If they're free, they'll publish. If not, they won't.

Therefore the only people who will pay you are at the club itself. That's a conversation that you need to have, especially if you are ending up out of pocket.
 
You need to face the fact that the paper is never ever going to pay for images at this level of sport. If they're free, they'll publish. If not, they won't.

Therefore the only people who will pay you are at the club itself. That's a conversation that you need to have, especially if you are ending up out of pocket.
Appreciate you taking the time, certainly a talk I will need to have
 
I understand but if I’m not good enough to charge but the only way to get better is practise, something has to give a little

If you are not good enough, then you shouldn't be doing it. End of.
Low end football games are not exactly difficult to access, you could turn up at them all the time and practice. Easy.

Ultimately all you are doing is destroying and I mean totally destroying your and any other junior photographers chance of paid work at this kind of gig, because when you do get good enough, they'll not be employing you. They'll just be moving onto the next person who'll work for free.
 
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If you are not good enough, then you shouldn't be doing it. End of.
Low end football games are not exactly difficult to access, you could turn up at them all the time and practice. Easy.

Ultimately all you are doing is destroying and I mean totally destroying your and any other junior photographers chance of paid work at this kind of gig, because when you do get good enough, they'll not be employing you. They'll just be moving onto the next person who'll work for free.


Nice rant but exactly how much money do you think is floating about in Tier Ten football?
 
Nice rant but exactly how much money do you think is floating about in Tier Ten football?
6-7 years ago as mentioned was £15 from my local paper, which went to the team. The person with their picture in the paper usually bought you a pint :D
Mostly it was about promoting the status of the team and the players that I supported
 
Nice rant but exactly how much money do you think is floating about in Tier Ten football?

That's not a rant at all. Its not affecting me, and yes you are quite right there is very little money in these low end games and very little money from the local press.

However even on these super junior jobs you should at least be getting a small rate. Ultimately what happens is people will talk - 'I need a photographer, how much did you pay they guy you used? nothing? Perfect. Can I have his details?' and then they are calling you insisting on paying nothing for a job which should clearly be paid, because its definitely not in the category of low end football / local paper.

A local photographer I know has shot several local bands over the last few months. His good and really been putting in the effort, setting up lots of sessions with them. He's been working for free or basic expenses. He's now desperate to charge and receiving lots of enquiries, but when he quote rates, [which are in my opinion still way too low, I'd be charging at least 4 times as much as him] he is just met with, oh well I hear you shot so and so for free, we'd like the same. He hadn't been able to get any paid work at all. Its for free or not interested.

Seen this scenario a hundred times.
 
I recently offered a free session of real estate photography to local architecture practices on the basis that I would provide the images for free (and my time) but they would cover the travel. I made the point that if they were good enough to use and would like to use me again there would be a fee. I had one practice come back and take me up on my offer and were really happy with the images and asked me for my fees for the next gig.

I don't think it would be a bad idea for you to go back to them and say that the terms in which you offered the service initially have changed, especially now that they are sending the images to other papers (the size of which are irrelevant). They clearly think the images are good enough to use so you want to now negotiate a price for each image used. If they're publishing images every week they will either have to work quick to find another photographer to work for free or pay you for your time and images. If they don't want to do that then you're free to stop wasting your time for no reward.
 
If you are not good enough, then you shouldn't be doing it. End of.

A little harsh maybe?
and there's low end and low end, the Saturday afternoon town teams at the local rec are free to watch, shoot, but you get exactly that, no technique, barely and skill and awful lot of walking players, that's doing me no favours, get up a few teers and you get stadiums (albeit small) proper pitchside access and players that have a modicum of technical ability, which results ultimately in far better pictures.

I'm not saying it doesn't impact, but the fact they posted for someone to cover matchdays for free, gives an idea it's not massively top of there budget.

My original question was "Should I just accept it and be happy for the club and the press they are receiving or should I say something", I am/was confused as to how this all works and looking for ppl with more experience than me to give advice.
 
My original question was "Should I just accept it and be happy for the club and the press they are receiving or should I say something", I am/was confused as to how this all works and looking for ppl with more experience than me to give advice.

It depends what you want out of it. I think for me it made the team around £150-200 a year because they wouldn't run the same team images/news all the time. It did help on a good cup run, making the finals several years running.
 
Hi i am the club photographer at Dorchester Town so not far from you. I think you are going to be lucky to get payment for the pictures in the local press of this low level league (standard) knowing what i come up against with request to send in pictures from Dorchester games. I have a deal in place with the Dorset Echo (Weymouth) for Dorchester pictures and if i do any other sports i let them know and they will take them on the same terms as the Football ones if wanted. But and a Big But is if when i say i am covering say the Town's Rugby club as there is no football that day then they usually will say they are supplied by someone else and when i get to the game and see the photographer nearly always its ones i know who send in pictures for just a name credit, meaning the Echo will go with them for free even if they are not level, even in focus etc just to save money. There is a photographer who comes to some Dorchester games covering them for both NLP and your Indy, now i know he will not send in for free so i guess it is because Wincanton is so far down the steps.
On i side note when i started taking football pictures it was just up the road from you at Zeals FC as my lad played for them(still does) Even back then when i started i made the club aware they could use them but not to send into the press but they still did of course as they wanted to publicize the club as it had just been started up but they soon understood not to just send them in.
 
I'm not saying it doesn't impact, but the fact they posted for someone to cover matchdays for free, gives an idea it's not massively top of there budget.

They post and request for free because they know they will get someone.

if you request for someone to fix your brakes, tidy your house, build your wall or whatever for free its not going to happen so why should that happen in photography?
 
It depends what you want out of it. I think for me it made the team around £150-200 a year because they wouldn't run the same team images/news all the time. It did help on a good cup run, making the finals several years running.

not really looking for a reward, as such, it was a question of, if they are going to publish every week, should I be asking for something in return. but as stan has said below, very unlily.

Hi i am the club photographer at Dorchester Town so not far from you. I think you are going to be lucky to get payment for the pictures in the local press of this low level league (standard) knowing what i come up against with request to send in pictures from Dorchester games. I have a deal in place with the Dorset Echo (Weymouth) for Dorchester pictures and if i do any other sports i let them know and they will take them on the same terms as the Football ones if wanted. But and a Big But is if when i say i am covering say the Town's Rugby club as there is no football that day then they usually will say they are supplied by someone else and when i get to the game and see the photographer nearly always its ones i know who send in pictures for just a name credit, meaning the Echo will go with them for free even if they are not level, even in focus etc just to save money. There is a photographer who comes to some Dorchester games covering them for both NLP and your Indy, now i know he will not send in for free so i guess it is because Wincanton is so far down the steps.
On i side note when i started taking football pictures it was just up the road from you at Zeals FC as my lad played for them(still does) Even back then when i started i made the club aware they could use them but not to send into the press but they still did of course as they wanted to publicize the club as it had just been started up but they soon understood not to just send them in.

Cheers Stan, just as i expected really, it is what it is. but practice is practice.

Appreciate all the replies, thank you all.
 
They post and request for free because they know they will get someone.

if you request for someone to fix your brakes, tidy your house, build your wall or whatever for free its not going to happen so why should that happen in photography?

i have to admit, can't really argue against that one, you are correct.
 
Let me give you a further reality check on this. I've worked as a picture editor at a magazine. Virtually every issue we used to run out of budget for a couple of pages and we'd look for a photographer who'd provide us with free images.

We never respected those photographers, we knew their work was not good, we only used them because they were free and we had no intention of using them again.
That was it. Total exploitation.
 
Let me give you a further reality check on this. I've worked as a picture editor at a magazine. Virtually every issue we used to run out of budget for a couple of pages and we'd look for a photographer who'd provide us with free images.

We never respected those photographers, we knew their work was not good, we only used them because they were free and we had no intention of using them again.
That was it. Total exploitation.

If this was a panto we'd all be booing and hissing right now :D
 
How many times has it been said on here by myself and a few others who sell their photos.

Don't do 'free'. It's a simple as that,
 
What about Rex?, they nearly do free?...……….:exit: :)
 
You need to talk to the club. You're supplying them with images, and they are putting them out there.

If you can demonstrate that since you've been doing the photography, there has been a measurable increase in coverage - column inches in the press, an increase in likes / engagement on social media., then explain that how you should be rewarded for that somehow.

Is the club financially stable or is the sort of club where every penny counts and its run by volunteers? If the former there is a chance you could be put on some type of retainer for your services. If the latter, then its not going to help your financial situation.
 
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The obvious question is what do you get out of it? Experience? well you could take pics without leting them use them so nothing there. Your name mentioned in the paper on a sports pic? I bet the phone hasn't stopped ringing with work from that... or has it? Yep diddly squat there then.
The possibility of paid work when you get better? Nope they've already demonstrated by having you do them for nothing they are not going to pay, otherwise they'd have had a pro shooting, they'll just get another free shotter and kick you into touch.
So looking at this I cant see what you gain, well theres wear and tear on your kit, the risk of damaged gear, fuel.... time ect. From where I sit your being had mate.
 
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