Ospreys from the new hide

[Stuart Philpott]

Would love to see more images, don't get to see many Ospreys around here

I'd like to see more too buddy, is it Gazj's works please?? I think I've pinned him down but would love to be sure. Grats to all parties, wow sums it,i'd settle for a distant speck being an osprey frankly,probably want a full frame dive tomorrow though Still want some pics here to crit as well gotta have me cake and eat it

Guys I'd love there to be more constructive crit here,tis all win,it's such a good way to learn especially other folks reposts,but it takes time I guess a like button don't and many of us are under pressure.shame though crits really good for us all of us. It's just folks opinion ,But one can learn much the guy giving the crit doesn't have to be a better photographer either we all have eyes. Should be fun though. always this should be fun.

This is a great example of sharing for me apart from the fact I can't see the images and get to talk to the guy that took them,even if only to say wow,although if there is more i'd love to be able to chat and express an opinion too. I probably won't get the chance to see or photograph ospreys for yonks if ever who knows. So as a guy that loves nature like you orrible lot it's cool seeing these rarer birds posted.

Gordon cheers for posting,good luck with your endevors Bill cheers for posting what you did too we should have more constructive critique here,

Lads if it is our Gaz i'd love to see him add some pics to this if and when he has time,he helped me much and inspires me still

take care

Stu

 

[OldCarlos]

i looked at made my own opinion on the images

As Did Bill.

Show some respect Bill

Jeeeez. Some folk are so touchy it's unreal.

Also just have a quick look at some of Gordons images , maybe you will then be a bit more respectfull of the man

The initial comments were about photo's posted on this thread I believe & in no way can that be construed as being disrespectful about any others. (unless other posts have been modded/deleted which I've missed, having just read the thread for the first time & not seen the pics being referred to)

One of the increasing features of this "critique" bird forum is that useful critique is now seldom given...........

Totally agree with you & part of the reason I rarely try.
As has been pointed out, they are `opinions` & we all vary, but unless specifically asked for, critique isn't worth the hassle for me tbh. Too many folk just love the adulation & smoke blowin up their arris.

 

[BillN_33]

As Did Bill.



Jeeeez. Some folk are so touchy it's unreal.



The initial comments were about photo's posted on this thread I believe & in no way can that be construed as being disrespectful about any others. (unless other posts have been modded/deleted which I've missed, having just read the thread for the first time & not seen the pics being referred to)



Totally agree with you & part of the reason I rarely try.
As has been pointed out, they are `opinions` & we all vary, but unless specifically asked for, critique isn't worth the hassle for me tbh. Too many folk just love the adulation & smoke blowin up their arris.

Thanks Carl

sometimes I do not think that it is worth posting anything anywhere unless you know the person - unfortunately it takes time to get to know someone - but fortunately you do get to know people

My point would be - less than 3 years ago I had never taken a bird image, never mid a "proper" one....... I did not know how or what equipment I should use .... I had never heard of post-processing, to me what came out of the camera is what you got.

Gradually through this forum I have learned an enormous amount, I have taken stick, had my disputes but I have always taken on board what people have said about the images posted, mine and others - I have now got to the situation were I enjoy the images that I take and can continue learning because I understand more.

I always passed on what I know and have learned to others, I do not hide it and I am quite happy for everyone to improve to the best of their ability, at my age and time of life that gives me satisfaction, seeing images on here getting better and better.

When friends say, that's a great image Bill, I always say it's not really just look around on the internet and see what others produce

The kit we can buy today and processing software has made it possible for us all to produce images that are good and that we can be proud of ............ some people hold back and do not tell what they know .. that's not for me

If my images were great, marvellous or whatever ......... I would be a renowned photographer making loads of dosh ......... my images are just average and anyone who takes care can produce quality images if they just take on board the advice and comments that are so freely offered.

When I see the forum treading water or going backwards I speak out

but every month or so there will always be a situation like this - it just seems to be the norm

sometimes I can be a bit direct!!

 

[OldCarlos]

I always passed on what I know and have learned to others, I do not hide it.....

Yep, I understand. Maybe it's an age thing?
It surprised me when I first looked at folk's flickr pics, just how many hide the exif.

sometimes I can be a bit direct!!

Always my preferred option too.

If you/anyone are prepared to comment on an image (which after all are in the critique forum) you should be applauded, not criticised.

 

[Gaz J]

I'd like to see more too buddy, is it Gazj's works please?? I think I've pinned him down but would love to be sure. Grats to all parties, wow sums it,i'd settle for a distant speck being an osprey frankly,probably want a full frame dive tomorrow though Still want some pics here to crit as well gotta have me cake and eat it

Guys I'd love there to be more constructive crit here,tis all win,it's such a good way to learn especially other folks reposts,but it takes time I guess a like button don't and many of us are under pressure.shame though crits really good for us all of us. It's just folks opinion ,But one can learn much the guy giving the crit doesn't have to be a better photographer either we all have eyes. Should be fun though. always this should be fun.

This is a great example of sharing for me apart from the fact I can't see the images and get to talk to the guy that took them,even if only to say wow,although if there is more i'd love to be able to chat and express an opinion too. I probably won't get the chance to see or photograph ospreys for yonks if ever who knows. So as a guy that loves nature like you orrible lot it's cool seeing these rarer birds posted.

Gordon cheers for posting,good luck with your endevors Bill cheers for posting what you did too we should have more constructive critique here,

Lads if it is our Gaz i'd love to see him add some pics to this if and when he has time,he helped me much and inspires me still

take care

Stu

Not my images being spoken about here. I only saw the diving osprey. I only know Gary through FB and I can understand how chuffed he was to get the image. I would be doing cartwheels also.

Processing is a can of worms. It's a very personal issue. Getting other wildlife photographers to look at other peoples images is pretty pointless because if you took 20 wildlife photographers and gave them a RAW file to process you'd end up with 20 different images. If you then took all the images and asked for a consensus you would probably end up with 2 or 3 that were regarded as the "best" but even then it's just opinion. One extremely well known and highly regarded wildlife photographer has been quoted as saying he hardly processes his work and doesn't know one end of a computer from the other.

I agree with Bill that critique is a lost art on here. Most cannot be bothered to give it because it just doesn't go down well with so many people. It's a huge learning tool though.

There is a big backlash against pay and display photography going on at the moment and it extends right up to major wildlife comps where photographers are being asked to remove images from their entry by the organisers.

Anyone can critique my stuff any time they like. If I think it's valid I will take note. If not I ignore it, whoever the individual is and however well known he is. Being a professional anything photographer only means you try and earn money from it. It doesn't mean that your view is the b all and end all. Loads of great amateur wildlife guys out there who could put many pros to shame.

 

[OldCarlos]

There is a big backlash against pay and display photography going on at the moment and it extends right up to major wildlife comps where photographers are being asked to remove images from their entry by the organisers.

What really annoys the hell outa me, is photographers who don't let on some of their pics are from paid sites & actually pretend they've spent months/years staking out truly wild birds/animals.

 

[Gaz J]

What really annoys the hell outa me, is photographers who don't let on some of their pics are from paid sites & actually pretend they've spent months/years staking out truly wild birds/animals.

This isn't about using the hides but about presentation of images from the hide for the best representation of what is available from the hide. I can understand Gordon wanting to show what can be achieved and maybe he hasn't the time to spend processing images to get the best out of them. Equally I can understand Bill saying that the images could be improved on to give a better impression of what can be achieved.

I have absolutely no issue with these hides, I have used them and will use them again and I know Gordon and his brother and they are both good blokes. I don't even bother adding that I've taken them from a hide. 99.9% of osprey images taken in this country will come from these hides. I think that the work these guys do is beneficial to the species and we probably end up with more survivors than if they didn't. I'm not just talking about Ospreys here.

I have seen so much negative stuff written about hides yet I know people who produce wonderful macro images of insects were the insects are bred in captivity and never see the light of day yet no one ever seems to question the ethics of this.

If the bird has a choice it's wild. If it doesn't then it's not. People will say they do this to bring them in, they do that and it's not right yet those same people will put perches out in the open to draw animals and birds away from their natural protective cover for their own photographs.

 

[BillN_33]

This isn't about using the hides but about presentation of images from the hide for the best representation of what is available from the hide. I can understand Gordon wanting to show what can be achieved and maybe he hasn't the time to spend processing images to get the best out of them. Equally I can understand Bill saying that the images could be improved on to give a better impression of what can be achieved.

I have absolutely no issue with these hides, I have used them and will use them again and I know Gordon and his brother and they are both good blokes. I don't even bother adding that I've taken them from a hide. 99.9% of osprey images taken in this country will come from these hides. I think that the work these guys do is beneficial to the species and we probably end up with more survivors than if they didn't. I'm not just talking about Ospreys here.

I have seen so much negative stuff written about hides yet I know people who produce wonderful macro images of insects were the insects are bred in captivity and never see the light of day yet no one ever seems to question the ethics of this.

If the bird has a choice it's wild. If it doesn't then it's not. People will say they do this to bring them in, they do that and it's not right yet those same people will put perches out in the open to draw animals and birds away from their natural protective cover for their own photographs.

I only made the following comments

"they are reasonable images, but your processing could be a lot better
the first image is good but technically the rest are weak"

I would have made these comment had it been a house sparrow


Maybe I should expand a little

I looked at the images from a techical and processing standpoint, as well as at their composition, there were 4 images and gave my opinion

The first image - I said that it was good only because it was an Osprey with a fish in it's mouth - technically and processing wise it could have been a lot better

The image of the Osprey in the water - again, technically, (correct in camera settings, focus etc, etc), I felt that it was weak - processing wise, again it could be a lot better

The image of the Heron - OK the pose was reasonable, but the image was not in focus or had camera or slow shutter speed movement and again processing could have been a lot better

I would not describe any of the images as stunning etc., etc., - indeed far from it and I felt to do so would be misleading

I felt that if you want to showcase such an opportunity, (the commercial use of his hide - the opportunity to see Ospreys in the UK), at least care should be taken in producing images that are not only compositionally attractive, but as importantly, technically spot on and processed to a good level. There are many images on the internet that meet this criteria.

This is a photographic forum which asks for critique, not a bird watching forum.

For some reason Gordon felt that if he brought attention to the images that I produce, this somehow would define my ability to review the images that he posted, making suggestions that I felt my images were fantastic and that I felt that I was a master of processing - none of which I had said or indicated. Indeed he offered to have my images reviewed by his "professional" wildlife photographer friends and provide feedback - I failed to see how any of this was relevant to my comments on the 4 images posted.

Others felt that I was disrespectful

I did not mean to be offensive, just to offer an honest opinion, but it is the last word he will get from me concerning any image, as we seem to have a communication problem

 

[den]

Fair play to you Bill, I see were you're coming from but as Gordon stated they were not his images ,I know of Gordon's work and also the regular photographers he gets visiting the hides , I did see the images and while they did apear to lack some good processing , comp etc I used my common sense and just thought it was a good opportunity for Gordon to show off and spread the word on his new set up , I didn't think for one minute he was asking for CC on behalf of the guy who took the pic , this is were I based my comment about being disrespectful to Gordon as there is more substance to his work and photography , hope that makes sense , maybe I should have elaborated more ...,

 

[BillN_33]

Fair play to you Bill, I see were you're coming from but as Gordon stated they were not his images ,I know of Gordon's work and also the regular photographers he gets visiting the hides , I did see the images and while they did apear to lack some good processing , comp etc I used my common sense and just thought it was a good opportunity for Gordon to show off and spread the word on his new set up , I didn't think for one minute he was asking for CC on behalf of the guy who took the pic , this is were I based my comment about being disrespectful to Gordon as there is more substance to his work and photography , hope that makes sense , maybe I should have elaborated more ...,

Thanks Den, you know above all how important, to you and others, it is to produce the best images that you can for posting in this section .......

I have never seen any of Gordon's work and was not commenting on anything other than the 4 images and contents of the thread

 

[gramps]

As an 'Advertiser' surely he was promoting his hide services by showing some examples of what can be seen and photographed by those who visit.
The diving Osprey being covered in the newspaper is something of note, whether the image was superb or in need of better processing ... when I took the series of images shown in my avatar they were rubbish as I was caught unaware and was in the wrong setting, nevertheless I was well pleased to have it published and paid for in four newspapers.
The only issue here IMO is the Advertiser posting in the wrong forum, but I think it was pretty clear what he was doing and I enjoyed seeing the different images ... like my fox photos the Heron wasn't best produced but I've never caught a Heron jumping like that so it was different and nice to see.

 

[BillN_33]

As an 'Advertiser' surely he was promoting his hide services by showing some examples of what can be seen and photographed by those who visit.
The diving Osprey being covered in the newspaper is something of note, whether the image was superb or in need of better processing ... when I took the series of images shown in my avatar they were rubbish as I was caught unaware and was in the wrong setting, nevertheless I was well pleased to have it published and paid for in four newspapers.
The only issue here IMO is the Advertiser posting in the wrong forum, but I think it was pretty clear what he was doing and I enjoyed seeing the different images ... like my fox photos the Heron wasn't best produced but I've never caught a Heron jumping like that so it was different and nice to see.

I guess I won't be getting any complimentary tickets to his hide then!!

not that I have ever been to a professional hide ...... just the odd shed down at Blashford Nature reserve - (surprisingly I have only ever found one in S Africa - I have asked the guys on the "Reserve" to build me one for next year)

 

[htid]

I guess I won't be getting any complimentary tickets to his hide then!!

not that I have ever been to a professional hide ...... just the odd shed down at Blashford Nature reserve - (surprisingly I have only ever found one in S Africa - I have asked the guys on the "Reserve" to build me one for next year)

I went to a hide in Blaauwberg nature reserve in cape town, that was pretty good.

 

[speyghillie]

Hi All,
What really annoys the hell outa me, is photographers who don't let on some of their pics are from paid sites & actually pretend they've spent months/years staking out truly wild birds/animals.
Are you suggesting that Ospreys are not wild birds or it takes no skill to get an Osprey image at a paid hide
, ok so here is a question and i will take my day today, i have a few clients in the hide and we get Ospreys diving, the light is poor and the Ospreys are fast, later in the day we go and photograph Red Grouse, no hide just stalking them over the moor, which is easier for me to guide to ?

Yes if its from a hide they should say so, but to suggest that Ospreys are not wild is just nonsense, can Red Grouse be bred in captivity ?
Which is the truly wild bird an Osprey or a Red Grouse ? , one stalked up and the other from a hide, if you have time please answer as its important when you make a sweeping statement about truly wild birds.

You see some species can only really be photographed from a hide but they are no less wild, but tell me which takes more skill as a wildlife photographer Ospreys from a paid hide or stalked up Red Grouse ?
I could always take a 1000 images of a robin on a stick and spend all day on a computer with super editing, nice image but not what everyone wants.
As for competition Judging, well that's a bit of a joke, one example, there was a major wildlife photographic comp not that long ago with hundreds of entries if not thousands, everybody was shocked to see the winning image was a feeder Stag, (some of you might know what that is) looking through some trees, a nothing image everybody thought, well it turns out the guy that won with the image was guided on that day by one of the judges, it all came to light much later.
Got to fly... and stalk Red Grouse without a hide....... but will check back later to see if anybody has answered my question.
Cheers Gordon.

 

[Gaz J]

Hi All,
What really annoys the hell outa me, is photographers who don't let on some of their pics are from paid sites & actually pretend they've spent months/years staking out truly wild birds/animals.
Are you suggesting that Ospreys are not wild birds or it takes no skill to get an Osprey image at a paid hide
, ok so here is a question and i will take my day today, i have a few clients in the hide and we get Ospreys diving, the light is poor and the Ospreys are fast, later in the day we go and photograph Red Grouse, no hide just stalking them over the moor, which is easier for me to guide to ?

Yes if its from a hide they should say so, but to suggest that Ospreys are not wild is just nonsense, can Red Grouse be bred in captivity ?
Which is the truly wild bird an Osprey or a Red Grouse ? , one stalked up and the other from a hide, if you have time please answer as its important when you make a sweeping statement about truly wild birds.

You see some species can only really be photographed from a hide but they are no less wild, but tell me which takes more skill as a wildlife photographer Ospreys from a paid hide or stalked up Red Grouse ?
I could always take a 1000 images of a robin on a stick and spend all day on a computer with super editing, nice image but not what everyone wants.
As for competition Judging, well that's a bit of a joke, one example, there was a major wildlife photographic comp not that long ago with hundreds of entries if not thousands, everybody was shocked to see the winning image was a feeder Stag, (some of you might know what that is) looking through some trees, a nothing image everybody thought, well it turns out the guy that won with the image was guided on that day by one of the judges, it all came to light much later.
Got to fly... and stalk Red Grouse without a hide....... but will check back later to see if anybody has answered my question.
Cheers Gordon.

I know of a photographer who was asked to remove a kingfisher image taken at a hide from his entry into a major wildlife comp run in the UK. When the awards, highly commended etc were announced there was an osprey in the list which anyone who has been to the few hides that specialise in osprey photography would know were it had been taken. Not only that it was baited with a fixed bait. The photographer who had been asked to remove his kingfisher contacted the organisers and asked for an explanation as to what was the difference between his kingfisher and the osprey.

Unsurprisingly the organisers never answered.

 

[BillN_33]

I went to a hide in Blaauwberg nature reserve in cape town, that was pretty good.

I have looked around and contacted a few people but there are hardly any ........... also you have to be careful as most of the land in S Africa is private and fenced

I tend to stick between Wilderness and Plet Bay, being based in Knysna ..... I do venture inland trying to find specific species, but it can be very hot and I have been advised not to walk through the "forests" alone as I have done ........ although there are lots of birds in S Africa it is such a big country that they are spread out a little.

Most of the "day" Reserves nearby tend to focus on animals and not birds and my bird shots are taken on the Reserve we live on or near the "lakes" in Wilderness and the lagoons near the Knysna heads ........ all the close up shots are taken in the "back garden"

I may try to get to Namibia next year ..... as some friends are coming out, but my wife is not too keen .. so I guess that is a "no" ........ Cape Town is over 5 hours away and just too far for me ....... my wife goes with a few friends, but I have never been, (apart from the Airport)

 

[Stuart Philpott]

Not my images being spoken about here. I only saw the diving osprey. I only know Gary through FB and I can understand how chuffed he was to get the image. I would be doing cartwheels also.

Processing is a can of worms. It's a very personal issue. Getting other wildlife photographers to look at other peoples images is pretty pointless because if you took 20 wildlife photographers and gave them a RAW file to process you'd end up with 20 different images. If you then took all the images and asked for a consensus you would probably end up with 2 or 3 that were regarded as the "best" but even then it's just opinion. One extremely well known and highly regarded wildlife photographer has been quoted as saying he hardly processes his work and doesn't know one end of a computer from the other.

I agree with Bill that critique is a lost art on here. Most cannot be bothered to give it because it just doesn't go down well with so many people. It's a huge learning tool though.

There is a big backlash against pay and display photography going on at the moment and it extends right up to major wildlife comps where photographers are being asked to remove images from their entry by the organisers.

Anyone can critique my stuff any time they like. If I think it's valid I will take note. If not I ignore it, whoever the individual is and however well known he is. Being a professional anything photographer only means you try and earn money from it. It doesn't mean that your view is the b all and end all. Loads of great amateur wildlife guys out there who could put many pros to shame.

Gaz thanks for clearing that up for me,yup cartwheels would be here too. I have no probs with paid hides ,at all (providing due care is given for the subjects ). They provide a chance for folks whom yes sure have the money ,but not always the time to get more of a chance of some pics. Being able to predict where a wild animal/bird is is no easy thing,so sure the element of fieldcraft is taken by the vendor ,but i'd imaging there is still a huge challenge to get images like Gary Jones has.,apologies for the confusion Gaz. Gaz I knew nothing of the backlash about the use of paid hides,in competitions,I have never entered any.

Thanks for the reply Gaz again my apologies for getting mixed up

take care

Stu

 

[den]

I have just won a competition featuring a little owl , I was asked on two occasions to confirm my shot was not from a paid for hide/workshop and to give full details on location etc , I used a hide but I certainly didn't pay myself to get the shot, technically not sure we're I stand on this one

 

[Stuart Philpott]

Heart felt grats Den all credit and earnt too,seriously chuffed for ya Den!!. I get that after all the big thing about all this for me is trying to get pics of these animals using the skills i'm learning and have learnt before picking up a camera,my fallow for example,in the wild. The same subject I could go for in a more captive context,but it doesn't "do it " for me I've just never dwelt on this in a competitive context Den, after all i'm learning all this,so feel it's maybe a bit early. But point taken with images taken at country parks where the deer are used to folks they would be a damn site easier to aquire than chasing the rascals I do.But I suppose whatever is the best pic "in the judges eye that is" wins. I'm unsure Den if I did take an image that was worthy of such things, would it be better because I'd spent months trying to work out habits using FC etc than someones whom simply walked up to a deer at an estate and nailed an incredible image ,or walked into a paid for hide for the same? Obviously it must do now in some competitions,not essentially paid hide senario ,but I suppose,someone elses work is evident in getting that pic,so maybe that is the important proviso? Point taken Den in a competitve context, you have me unsure too,although I still feel that if someone wants to use a paid hide then great,each to their own. I've seen some incredible images here taken from other folks hides,the guys that took those pics have still to execute and "see" the image, paying for a hide doesn't eradicate the skills needed to bring a cool image back. Maybe it gives one a better chance of actually taking a pic,but skills are still needed.

interesting Den cheers ha and another grats

Stu

 

[gramps]

Which is the truly wild bird an Osprey or a Red Grouse ? , one stalked up and the other from a hide,

I've not heard of any captive Ospreys and assume that Red Grouse are/can be bred for the shooting crowd.
I've never seen Red Grouse and only once had the opportunity to photograph an Osprey when it made a brief stop-over on the Somerset Levels ... that was from a hide but it never occurred to me that I was in any way 'cheating' or taking advantage of the bird, for me it was just a great opportunity to photograph an amazing bird.
In general I don't have the opportunity to go out and find such species so am happy on occasion to pay to use a hide. I would never enter such images in a competition, though obviously some have (wasn't the Hedgehog in last years Countryfile Calendar from a wildlife hospital or something similar?).
I would never state that a captive animal was wild but then I would not see the need to automatically state that one had been taken from a hide, if asked or it was a necessary issue I would not conceal the fact ... I guess some folk are very pedantic when it comes to photographing animals, whereas for me it's a hobby I enjoy.
What of people visiting Bempton Cliffs for the Gannets or The Farnes or Skomer for the Puffins ... hardly 'stalked and found' but always appreciated both by the photographer and those viewing the photos.
Strikes me that some of us need to loosen up a bit and enjoy what we do as long as our doing it does not adversely impact the species (any more than mankind in general always does!).

 

[OldCarlos]

This isn't about using the hides but about presentation of images from the hide for the best representation of what is available from the hide.

Are you suggesting that Ospreys are not wild birds or it takes no skill to get an Osprey image at a paid hide

Let me be clear, I'm not against using hides at all for any wildlife & certainly not for ospreys, paid or otherwise, I was commenting on how some 'togs use images taken from paid hides then pretend they've spent months of hard work getting the image, as though they are some kind of professional film maker working alongside David Attenborough.

There are 3 or 4 guys localish to me who I know have done this regularly. I've heard them telling people how hard it is to get certain shots & the importance of understanding wildlife & the surroundings etc.

One of the guys has some stunning images of kingfishers, but they are from a hide where he's been at least 4 times & paid £60 each time. As said, the images are fantastic & we would all be proud to have taken them, but if anyone asks he tells them they were from a local, wild site, which he's not at liberty to disclose.

Another guy has started getting images of little owls & reckons it's taken him years to find their nesting site. I know he found the place by accident because another guy I know had been set up & taking photo's from there for many years.

For some, It's become a race of one-upmanship & ego's.

 

[FourRingCircus]

Which is the truly wild bird an Osprey or a Red Grouse?

Hi Gordon. As you know, they are all wild birds and nobody can say otherwise. Carl would seem to suggest that there is a diference between an Osprey visiting your lochan and a 'trully wild' Osprey. There isn't. They are the same bird without any question. Anyone telling you different is being a bit silly to be frank. The only real difference however, is between the photographers themselves.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with paying to take photographs, if that's what you want to do. There is also nothing wrong with 'encouraging' trully wild wildlife to fish at a specific spot by providing food. Finally, there is nothing wrong with making some sort of living by providing the service of a paid hide, providing it is done with the interests of the wildlife as a priority, which I know for a fact that Gordon does.

About twenty-five years ago, I was standing at a Lochan not far from where Gordon is. I was watching for a chance encounter with an Osprey. Four chaps rolled-up in a Range Rover and proceeded to scan the water with intent. I asked if they were looking for an Osprey and was met with some derision when they brushed off my enquiry in a few words, suggesting they had driven up from Southampton to see a very rare duck. I was bemused by this, as I'd never met any serious twitchers before. However, they all pointed to a black dot on the water, congratulated themselves and headed back to their car. Another enquiry from me as they walked away discovered that they were heading straight back to southampton.

Is there anything wrong with this? No, of course not - people are free to pursue whatever interests them. Am I on some sort of moral high-ground for not understanding their pursuit? No, I'm not. The same goes for paid hide work. Do I understand it? Yes! Do I take part in it? No! Is there anything wrong with it? No!

The plain and simple truth is that I'm jealous of many of the images obtained in this manner, but for me, the joy in my photography is the thrill of the chase! It's the acheivement of finding and photographing my subject, any subject, on my own terms and with my own knowledge. The other truth is that my images are not the same as everyone else's. Ospreys, Kingfishers, Sparrowhawks etc all begin to look fairly mundane and boring when the background, or the style, is the same. Almost invariably, my images are barely mediocre when compared to paid-hide work. However, I live in hope. What does annoy me (and I've never seen Gordon do this) is when people with hides belittle those who do not join-in and laugh out loud at people who spend many hours in vain to get 'that shot' which turns out to be a dot on the skyline.

It's a very personal thing, but I reckon I get mnore satisfaction from a decent image of a chance encounter, than many of these 'pros' who pretend that an image on their wall or in a newspaper has been hard fought and won.

Finally, I am indebted to Gordon for my own (decent) Crested Tit image, as he helped me to find it by puting me in the right spot, without any money changing hands. But I don't feel guilty about it, even though it gives him something to niggle me about being a tight fisted Aberdonian!!!

 

[OldCarlos]

Hi Gordon. As you know, they are all wild birds and nobody can say otherwise. Carl would seem to suggest that there is a diference between an Osprey visiting your lochan and a 'trully wild' Osprey.

No, I am not.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with paying to take photographs, if that's what you want to do. There is also nothing wrong with 'encouraging' trully wild wildlife to fish at a specific spot by providing food. Finally, there is nothing wrong with making some sort of living by providing the service of a paid hide, providing it is done with the interests of the wildlife as a priority, which I know for a fact that Gordon does.

Agreed.

It's a very personal thing, but I reckon I get mnore satisfaction from a decent image of a chance encounter, than many of these 'pros' who pretend that an image on their wall or in a newspaper has been hard fought and won.

Same here.

 

[FourRingCircus]

What really annoys the hell outa me, is photographers who don't let on some of their pics are from paid sites & actually pretend they've spent months/years staking out truly wild birds/animals.

Sorry Carl - I wasn't having a go at you and I may have taken what you said a bit more literally than you actually meant it.

I reckon we are very much on the same page with this.

 

[speyghillie]

Hi All,
Finally, I am indebted to Gordon for my own (decent) Crested Tit image, as he helped me to find it by puting me in the right spot, without any money changing hands. But I don't feel guilty about it, even though it gives him something to niggle me about being a tight fisted Aberdonian!!!
But you are bloody tight, and you never mentioned the cracking little red robin in the snow, all good but you still owe me a coffee.... probably never see that.

And the duck twenty five years ago was if i remember correctly an American Ring necked duck that was blown off course, my old boss the Laird at Rothiemurchus started charging people a pound to see it when i was at the fishery and we had buses turn up.

I've not heard of any captive Ospreys and assume that Red Grouse are/can be bred for the shooting crowd.
Not true Gramps, Red Grouse cannot be bred for the shooting crowd or in captivity, so totally wild.

I do think if an image from a hide it should be stated, but the only way to get close to Ospreys and some other species is using a hide, but number one is the respect of the Ospreys, photographers are lovely people but they have to come second, has been that way since i left Rothiemurchus and started on my own.

I can go from hero to zero in one morning with Ospreys using a hide, but can much easier get Red Grouse out on an open moor or Ptarmigan in the winter in the Mountains. which is harder to get a really good image of... Ospreys by a mile.
I know paid hides are not for everyone, but thankfully some do, and its always a challenge to get a half decent image as the move pretty fast and the North of Scotland is not famous for good early morning light.
What about a competition with images in raw, no digital jiggery pokery, after all nowadays i can take a pretty poor image from the camera and make it outstanding with software i bought, or even put a perched Osprey on your head.... with my mobile phone..

Cheers Gordon.

 

[gramps]

I've not heard of any captive Ospreys and assume that Red Grouse are/can be bred for the shooting crowd.
Not true Gramps, Red Grouse cannot be bred for the shooting crowd or in captivity, so totally wild.

Every day a school day

 

[Gaz J]

I have just won a competition featuring a little owl , I was asked on two occasions to confirm my shot was not from a paid for hide/workshop and to give full details on location etc , I used a hide but I certainly didn't pay myself to get the shot, technically not sure we're I stand on this one

The only things you've paid for Den is your gear and you've paid with time and effort.

It's getting silly. If I pay you to take me to the little owls that you photograph as part of your business and I sit there all day and they don't come, then the following day I go back without you and they are they all day. What's the difference in any images I get.

if comps start down this road then people will just lie and unless it's an osprey no one will be able to prove otherwise.

 

[wezza13]

i have no problem with paid hides either.

Never used one but I'm pretty sure it's still very tricky to photograph diving Ospreys and Kingfishers, so there is still lots of skill involved!

And I imagine that there is still a chance that there is a no-show?

Like a hide in the garden, 99.9% of the time you're guaranteed to get those Blue Tits and Sparrows on your feeders.

But there's also a mathematical chance that they won't show