Panorama this evening-China/Covid

there has been a massive increase in far-right political activity across much of Europe, a massive increase in racist attacks, particularly on people from Muslim cultures, a massive increase in anti-Semitism
There has been a steady increase of hate crime in Britain during the last decade, from 42,255 offences in 2012/13 to 103,379 in 2018/19 (https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/839172/hate-crime-1819-hosb2419.pdf) and this is worrying.

However there has also been an equally large growth of awareness. At any demonstration attended by extreme right wingers there are, almost invariably, far more counter demonstrators, which I find very encouraging. I agree that our government should do far more to silence hate speech and punish hate crimes.
 
Yeah; my next door neighbour is Chinese.

Next.

No detail, reference or factual information in your post, all just bad opinion. nothing worth commenting on.

Bad opinion okay then
you two seem to talk like you have spent time there but going by these replies it will be lucky if you have even visited.

I spent at least a month there every year and have done so for over 10 years, my wife is Chinese and her family all still currently live there so have some
Knowledge to what actually goes on there.

If you want actual factual information there is plenty all over the internet to back up everything I’ve said.
None of it opinion.

Don’t get me wrong I love the country but it has definitely made a u turn on the way it was heading a few years ago, it’s closing down now opening up.
 
Apologies for not getting back to you sooner re your other posts to me. After responding to Andrew F I really needed a break. Life was simpler when it was safe (allowed even)to travel and visit wildlife locations to take photos. I won't risk sitting in hides. In the meantime I've plunged into off-topic forums.
I've used your last post as a quote /alert although it was directed to 'Early Man' it covers aspects of what China is about that's causing the problems, as I see it .and it's shorter than the two to me.

First off I'm wondering how you have so much detailed knowledge of the affairs of China...not only the affairs but the 'thinking'. No other posts come anywhere near the level of detail of your input. You posted with equal detail in a thread about the Uighurs but I can't find that thread..Not in Hot Topics and not in Out of Focus/General Discussion unless I've just overlooked it. I'd be less than honest too ,if I didn't say that some of the posts , or sections of them, whether you intended them to be or not, come across as being defensive of the CCP. I say, CCP because it's the regime we're talking about rather than the people which is why I don't think those using the term 'Chinese' is appropriate. I wish politicians would, in relation to Russia too...the other country in the firing line, talk in terms of the Russian/Putin government rather than 'the Russians'.
If you'd rather not disclose that then fair enough.

I do not have a single sourse of information. I have had an interest in China since I was stationed there in the early 50’s.


For a Hong Kong Point of view I tend to rely on the South China morning post. This is a long established news outlet based in Hong Kong, which was bought by the owner of Alibaba as a means of showing China in a favourable light to the business world. He has turned it into a fast growing digital news outlet. That covers all areas of interest in China and the far East. It avoids direct Criticism of the Chinese Authorities but is never the less banned from publishing in mainland China. To balance this I also read stories emanating from Bloomberg who seems to follow the State department (republican) line in the USA. And various Murdoch publications that generally give a rightwing personalised point of view on everything, but largely led by his own self interest and power base. I do not read any official Chinese news sources.


These Sources give me a reasonable route to navigate through, and give very distinct points of view on both sides of most news stories. I generally make the assumption where the stories coincide in detail, it is likely to be factual. Were opinions differ it is likely to show normal bias, and where they are in denial they are likely to be covering up propaganda or lies.
I am happy that I am now able to understand most of what is going on and am able to distinguish what is what….





I don't see the criticism that is being directed at China as the result of failing to understand cultural differences I mean, the way the people of China and the CCP see the world. I strongly disagree with those who believe it's all about racism. Your posts to me, which you've clearly put a lot of effort into, have motivated me to do some research..or to put it in more appropriate terms..some digging around. It's been enlightening.
Just to set the scene, from what I've read. After the death of Chairman Mao Zedong in 1976 China adopted significant economic reforms resulting in rapid growth.People, on a personal level, had more freedom but political freedom remained off the table, so to speak. It was hoped,by the West, that rising income and expanding private enterprise would lead to political freedoms too. It wasn't to be because in 1989 the world saw what happened in Tiananmen Square (1989).Thereafter a loose unstable system of authoritarianism was adopted. Any challenge to the Party would result in imprisonment but more general discussions were allowed..mainly in academia.There was much more in terms of relations with other countries, there was even a semi-independent press which challenged, not the Party per se, but local government. Holding individuals to account,really.​
Now, the Party, under the leadership of President Xi Jinping is pushing in the opposite direction over concerns about loss of authority which has lead to an increasingly totalitarian system.(akin to that of Mao).Infact, as he's now abandoned the fixed term policy some worry he will be chairman for as long as he lives..just like Mao 1949-76.

I think your reply gives some of the relevant facts but not the whole picture. nor interpret them very well.

China has never been a western democracy. It has always been run by an absolute leader under a very powerful civil services.
This was true under the Emperors, Chairman Mao and now again under president Xi.
Communism has been something of an aberration and has lasted a very short period in a Chinese history. What we have now is a Hybrid Commerce, technological, and capatalist led “communist” system, that is communist in the sense, and in a similar way that Europe and the UK are largely run as a socialist form of capitalism. And quite unlike America which has an individualistic form of capitalism.

The difference is similar to the hive mentality of Bees and Ants. Where everything is done for the benefit of the colony as a whole. Where as The USA live more the solitary life of a Leopard who sinks or swims on his own efforts alone, and has no sense of working for the common good. And who competes with, rather than cooperates with his fellows.

Ji Jinping has risen by ability from a rural background. There is no doubt at all that he is an extremely able leader. He has completely changed the technical industrial and commercial fortune of China. He has modernised the entire infrastructure and manufacturing capacity of china in to a world leading power, in an astonishingly short period. Education research and development and scientific achievement are now high priority prime targets for further development.

The Road and Belt initiative is nothing to do with the debt enslavement of poor developing countries. It is about the building of infrastructure trading routes ports and Air routes. So as to enable trade between them and China and the rest of the world.
They like China were held back from the modern world, largely by the lack of such infrastructure.
Since the demise of the British empire the West has neglect both its own and the infrastructure of the developing countries. (The USA to the extent that much of its own infrastructure is close to collapse, in some cases literally)
The western world fears the Belt and Road initiative, because it fears it gives a trade advantage to China. And will position developing countries in the Chinese camp.
This is of course a very short sighted view. As were the west able to take advantage of it, the new infrastructure is open just as much for their own trade… However they have little to offer in trade these days, and are only interested in obtaining raw materials at low prices.


Under the leadership of Xi Jinping, China has become a leading power in virtually every field of endeavour. However the vast majority of China is yet to be developed. Its potential dwarfs it present achievements. In the light of these achievement Xi has been appointed President for life.
Which from a Chinese point of view is a natural development and reward, in the expectation of future Growth and wealth for the rest of China and its future.

I will cover the rest of your post later………… But I will probably combine many of your points as they follow a theme.
 
Bad opinion okay then
you two seem to talk like you have spent time there but going by these replies it will be lucky if you have even visited.

I spent at least a month there every year and have done so for over 10 years, my wife is Chinese and her family all still currently live there so have some
Knowledge to what actually goes on there.

If you want actual factual information there is plenty all over the internet to back up everything I’ve said.
None of it opinion.

Don’t get me wrong I love the country but it has definitely made a u turn on the way it was heading a few years ago, it’s closing down now opening up.


If you have relevant information please share it....
However your previous post only gave opinion. so we had nothing to answer.

It is certainty true that China has reacted to the new situation presented by Trump and the advent of his trade war.
Were that war to be against the UK, one could expect a very similar reaction.

The internet is a very poor source of information, at the moment it is flooded by American right wing opinion, and misinformation, in an attempt to justify extending the Trump's trade war.

Where is your wife from? Hong Kong, Rural mainland China an old regional city, or one of the new Industrial/ technical cities. they all tend to have very different experiences and opinions. As you are obviously aware China has a degree of regional autonomy, but a very strong central command structure.
 
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I do not have a single sourse of information. I have had an interest in China since I was stationed there in the early 50’s.


For a Hong Kong Point of view I tend to rely on the South China morning post. This is a long established news outlet based in Hong Kong, which was bought by the owner of Alibaba as a means of showing China in a favourable light to the business world. He has turned it into a fast growing digital news outlet. That covers all areas of interest in China and the far East. It avoids direct Criticism of the Chinese Authorities but is never the less banned from publishing in mainland China. To balance this I also read stories emanating from Bloomberg who seems to follow the State department (republican) line in the USA. And various Murdoch publications that generally give a rightwing personalised point of view on everything, but largely led by his own self interest and power base. I do not read any official Chinese news sources.


These Sources give me a reasonable route to navigate through, and give very distinct points of view on both sides of most news stories. I generally make the assumption where the stories coincide in detail, it is likely to be factual. Were opinions differ it is likely to show normal bias, and where they are in denial they are likely to be covering up propaganda or lies.
I am happy that I am now able to understand most of what is going on and am able to distinguish what is what….







I think your reply gives some of the relevant facts but not the whole picture. nor interpret them very well.

China has never been a western democracy. It has always been run by an absolute leader under a very powerful civil services.
This was true under the Emperors, Chairman Mao and now again under president Xi.
Communism has been something of an aberration and has lasted a very short period in a Chinese history. What we have now is a Hybrid Commerce, technological, and capatalist led “communist” system, that is communist in the sense, and in a similar way that Europe and the UK are largely run as a socialist form of capitalism. And quite unlike America which has an individualistic form of capitalism.

The difference is similar to the hive mentality of Bees and Ants. Where everything is done for the benefit of the colony as a whole. Where as The USA live more the solitary life of a Leopard who sinks or swims on his own efforts alone, and has no sense of working for the common good. And who competes with, rather than cooperates with his fellows.

Ji Jinping has risen by ability from a rural background. There is no doubt at all that he is an extremely able leader. He has completely changed the technical industrial and commercial fortune of China. He has modernised the entire infrastructure and manufacturing capacity of china in to a world leading power, in an astonishingly short period. Education research and development and scientific achievement are now high priority prime targets for further development.

The Road and Belt initiative is nothing to do with the debt enslavement of poor developing countries. It is about the building of infrastructure trading routes ports and Air routes. So as to enable trade between them and China and the rest of the world.
They like China were held back from the modern world, largely by the lack of such infrastructure.
Since the demise of the British empire the West has neglect both its own and the infrastructure of the developing countries. (The USA to the extent that much of its own infrastructure is close to collapse, in some cases literally)
The western world fears the Belt and Road initiative, because it fears it gives a trade advantage to China. And will position developing countries in the Chinese camp.
This is of course a very short sighted view. As were the west able to take advantage of it, the new infrastructure is open just as much for their own trade… However they have little to offer in trade these days, and are only interested in obtaining raw materials at low prices.


Under the leadership of Xi Jinping, China has become a leading power in virtually every field of endeavour. However the vast majority of China is yet to be developed. Its potential dwarfs it present achievements. In the light of these achievement Xi has been appointed President for life.
Which from a Chinese point of view is a natural development and reward, in the expectation of future Growth and wealth for the rest of China and its future.

I will cover the rest of your post later………… But I will probably combine many of your points as they follow a theme.

Are you part of the 50cent army?

It was actually Hu that opened the country to the west and started the great expansion in development and trade, Xi has actually reduced openness and turned the country to trying to take control of as much land around the world via investment ,development or intimidation.

The R&B initiative definitely ties these countries to China through debt and allows China to take resources as they please.
Again if you actually look into it loads of the money has disappeared from projects.
 
Are you part of the 50cent army?

It was actually Hu that opened the country to the west and started the great expansion in development and trade, Xi has actually reduced openness and turned the country to trying to take control of as much land around the world via investment ,development or intimidation.

The R&B initiative definitely ties these countries to China through debt and allows China to take resources as they please.
Again if you actually look into it loads of the money has disappeared from projects.

If I were in any ones army 50 cents would not be any sort of incentive.
I tend to a liberal- socialist point of view as do much of the UK population. and try to give a balanced opinion.

Hu certainly started the process of change, but it became somewhat corrupted by new wealth.
Xi has a more puritanical bent and has cleaned out much of the high level corruption.
But low level corruption is expected and is endemic in China and always has been.
It was even encouraged as a form of control by those early mandarins. As when you know of an underlings corruption, you can control him completely.
(If someone is milking the cow for his own benefit, he has to produce even more milk to hide his theft. Ergo some corruption can be efficient. and is self managing)

(I have know it used in at least one british company that I worked for)

The same process was used by Franco in Spain, who like China had a massive secret police network. and crime was controlled to a minimum.



It seems to me that You are more prone to giving distorted information about Chines intentions than I am.
I am coming from the position that I expect all countries to do what is in the best interests of that country.
In China's case. I modify that to read in China's long term interests. they think and plan so long term that it is sometime difficult to perceive the context..

It is not in China's interest to create Debtor nations in the way that the west has done. since the days of empires.
It is far more profitable to build up wealthy trading partners, as in the days of the old silk road.
This is the thinking behind the Road and Belt imitative. it will eventually become self supporting.
 
I do not have a single sourse of information. I have had an interest in China since I was stationed there in the early 50’s.


For a Hong Kong Point of view I tend to rely on the South China morning post. This is a long established news outlet based in Hong Kong, which was bought by the owner of Alibaba as a means of showing China in a favourable light to the business world. He has turned it into a fast growing digital news outlet. That covers all areas of interest in China and the far East. It avoids direct Criticism of the Chinese Authorities but is never the less banned from publishing in mainland China. To balance this I also read stories emanating from Bloomberg who seems to follow the State department (republican) line in the USA. And various Murdoch publications that generally give a rightwing personalised point of view on everything, but largely led by his own self interest and power base. I do not read any official Chinese news sources.

These Sources give me a reasonable route to navigate through, and give very distinct points of view on both sides of most news stories. I generally make the assumption where the stories coincide in detail, it is likely to be factual. Were opinions differ it is likely to show normal bias, and where they are in denial they are likely to be covering up propaganda or lies.
I am happy that I am now able to understand most of what is going on and am able to distinguish what is what….

Ok..Thanks (y)

I think your reply gives some of the relevant facts but not the whole picture. nor interpret them very well.

China has never been a western democracy. It has always been run by an absolute leader under a very powerful civil services.
This was true under the Emperors, Chairman Mao and now again under president Xi.
Communism has been something of an aberration and has lasted a very short period in a Chinese history. What we have now is a Hybrid Commerce, technological, and capatalist led “communist” system, that is communist in the sense, and in a similar way that Europe and the UK are largely run as a socialist form of capitalism. And quite unlike America which has an individualistic form of capitalism.

The difference is similar to the hive mentality of Bees and Ants. Where everything is done for the benefit of the colony as a whole. Where as The USA live more the solitary life of a Leopard who sinks or swims on his own efforts alone, and has no sense of working for the common good. And who competes with, rather than cooperates with his fellows.

Ji Jinping has risen by ability from a rural background. There is no doubt at all that he is an extremely able leader. He has completely changed the technical industrial and commercial fortune of China. He has modernised the entire infrastructure and manufacturing capacity of china in to a world leading power, in an astonishingly short period. Education research and development and scientific achievement are now high priority prime targets for further development.

The Road and Belt initiative is nothing to do with the debt enslavement of poor developing countries. It is about the building of infrastructure trading routes ports and Air routes. So as to enable trade between them and China and the rest of the world.
They like China were held back from the modern world, largely by the lack of such infrastructure.
Since the demise of the British empire the West has neglect both its own and the infrastructure of the developing countries. (The USA to the extent that much of its own infrastructure is close to collapse, in some cases literally)
The western world fears the Belt and Road initiative, because it fears it gives a trade advantage to China. And will position developing countries in the Chinese camp.
This is of course a very short sighted view. As were the west able to take advantage of it, the new infrastructure is open just as much for their own trade… However they have little to offer in trade these days, and are only interested in obtaining raw materials at low prices.


Under the leadership of Xi Jinping, China has become a leading power in virtually every field of endeavour. However the vast majority of China is yet to be developed. Its potential dwarfs it present achievements. In the light of these achievement Xi has been appointed President for life.
Which from a Chinese point of view is a natural development and reward, in the expectation of future Growth and wealth for the rest of China and its future.

I will cover the rest of your post later………… But I will probably combine many of your points as they follow a theme.


Another comprehensive reply..thank you. Look forward to reading more.

You can see how confusing it is for those who want to learn more about China when two sources come up with differing accounts about the Belt and Road Initiative. Infact, having read comments on here about sources I now go to a company called Media Bias/Fact check. So I read an article about 'debt diplomacy' by TRT World. I check Media Bias/fact check and see it has conservative values. So you see what I mean I've included ther article and the assessment.

The article .https://www.trtworld.com/africa/how-china-s-debt-trap-diplomacy-works-and-what-it-means-32133

Turns out it's Turkish-owned and right wing biased. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/trt-world/

So,having read that I go to the 'good old Guardian'..lol.. with the same question re debt-diplomacy and get quite a differeent assessment more akin to what you've said but still some reservations.


What does Media Bias/Fact Check say about the Guardian. They say that 'factual reporting is mixed' with loaded words and a left-bias


I'm not sure where one goes with this. Into the 'too hard tray ? :D I could maybe start with the South China morning Post.

Bloomberg assessed pretty much the same as the Guardian https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/bloomberg/

South China Morning Post https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/south-china-morning-post/

So.. as you do,best to read a couple of sources but all three are classed as Centre-left. I used to watch Bloomberg on TV via Sky but can't access it now. I have a Sky box from my subscription days but £50 a month to watch some football..I have no interest in the films you get with it.. was too much..a waste of money,really, so I stopped the subscription and was told I could keep the box which still gives me a reasonbable selection of programmes to watch..bar the sport.CNCB (Wall Street) and CNN I like.
 
I'm not sure where one goes with this. Into the 'too hard tray ?
I think that the only solution is to apply the principle of "all the world lies save thee and me - and I'm nae that sure o' thee". :naughty:
 
I don't know how accurate the rest of the content in this very detailed post is, but personally I can't agree with the bit that I'm quoting.

1. I wouldn't say that the migrant workers are mainly women, the ones I've seen are mainly men but there are certainly some women.

I don't really know what to say,Garry. Terry has just respnded to me in the Covid Panorama programme and said to get a balance he read at least two sources. One in Hong Kong and one in the US..I can't recall where I read that, about mainly women workers but it's a fact that whatever..within reason ...that someone posts there's inevitably someone-else who has direct experience and can challenge what has been said. I've just a quick Google. This article states 36% are women https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001671851400061X


2. Their working and living conditions are pretty poor, but through choice - they move to the cities to earn as much money as they can, and they want to take that money back home with them, so they prefer to sleep in the very cheap blockhouses, built for the purpose, rather than to live comfortably and expensively.

Well, it's true they live in poor conditions but my article, if what you say is correct, failed to acknowledge that aspect. Ie they choose to save money.

3. The overtime is excessive by our standards but not by theirs, and it isn't forced. In fact the opposite is true, if the employer offers them less than about 70 hours per week they move on to somewhere where they can work longer hours and earn more money.

I did mention in relation to human rights (in this thread) that comparing one country with another is an erroneous way to gauge culpability. 70 hours is a very long time for anyone to work but as with the 'mainly women' statement in the article I read you're telling me something different.

And this long hours, hard work ethic needs to be taken in context - even very senior people do exactly the same, it's probably one of the main reasons why China does so well.

You may be right about sandblasting, that's outside my personal experience, but what I've written above is based on my own knowledge, having been to loads of factories where the vast majority of the shop floor workers are migrants. These migrants work hard for 11 months, then return home for the Chinese New Year. They travel home by train because that's the cheapest method and they have a slow and uncomfortable journey because although China has fantastic trains, the ones used by the migrants are very overcrowded, slow and basic. Some work in the cities for several years, others for just one year, because they can earn a lot of money in just one year.

Hope that helps.

Not really..lol. but I appreciate the sentiment. How does one find out the facts. Not saying you're wrong,Garry. You could spend all day sourcing information and be non-the-wiser.
 
I think that the only solution is to apply the principle of "all the world lies save thee and me - and I'm nae that sure o' thee". :naughty:

Yes..of course..it all depends on one's agenda.


Maybe I'll just go back to photos from whence I came....:LOL:
 
I really don't know how most people can learn and check out the facts.

My own knowledge, such as it is, was gained by doing business in China and visiting a lot of factories over a long period of time. Also, I have a close friend who is Chinese by birth but who has spent most of his life here. He has acted as my translator in China many times, he is also unusual in that although he is extremely well integrated into British life he is a keen student of Chinese culture and history, and is also totally apolitical, so probably knows a lot more than most Chinese people. I also know his wife very well, and they both explain things to me.
 
Are you part of the 50cent army?

It was actually Hu that opened the country to the west and started the great expansion in development and trade, Xi has actually reduced openness and turned the country to trying to take control of as much land around the world via investment ,development or intimidation.

The R&B initiative definitely ties these countries to China through debt and allows China to take resources as they please.
Again if you actually look into it loads of the money has disappeared from projects.

Did you know a high proportion of the money for the Road and Belt has been raised in Dollars on the American investment markets.

Why use your own money when you can use someone else's? and it could make it rather difficult for those American investors if the USA was to try to interfere.
such investments rely on trust and free flow of money between the countries involved.
 
I really don't know how most people can learn and check out the facts.

My own knowledge, such as it is, was gained by doing business in China and visiting a lot of factories over a long period of time. Also, I have a close friend who is Chinese by birth but who has spent most of his life here. He has acted as my translator in China many times, he is also unusual in that although he is extremely well integrated into British life he is a keen student of Chinese culture and history, and is also totally apolitical, so probably knows a lot more than most Chinese people. I also know his wife very well, and they both explain things to me.


Well, that's good provenance from which to inform people. I see pmac has contributed and he's been there annually for a month at a time..has a Chinese wife whose family live in China and has a different take to Terry..:rolleyes: It was getting hard work trying to get information off the web ..a lot of reading not to mention excessive time spent..and in this lovely hot weather too.. All I did was to give a heads up re the Panorama programme...:)
 
Well, that's good provenance from which to inform people. I see pmac has contributed and he's been there annually for a month at a time..has a Chinese wife whose family live in China and has a different take to Terry..:rolleyes: It was getting hard work trying to get information off the web ..a lot of reading not to mention excessive time spent..and in this lovely hot weather too.. All I did was to give a heads up re the Panorama programme...:)

This is of course the problem, people's perceptions.
Many of us have lived in the UK most or all of our lives.
However we have entirely different perceptions of our politics and relative ease of living, our attitude to the police and per haps views on parliament the law and the EU..
We all filter the same facts and come up with different answers.
How much more true must that be when the culture is so different as between us and the Chinese.

I am very aware that my interpretations of the situation is not the only possible one. But I feel it is at least realistic, and is less likely to lead to confrontation, or war. If persued.
 
We all filter the same facts and come up with different answers.
On top of which is the truth of the "facts" from which we start. Material on a forum is unfiltered by any form of fact checking, so I start by disbelieving every assertion from posters who claim to have special knowledge of any subject. I'm doubly careful of claims by those keyboard warriors whose reaction to opposing views is steadily escalating unpleasantness.
 
On top of which is the truth of the "facts" from which we start. Material on a forum is unfiltered by any form of fact checking, so I start by disbelieving every assertion from posters who claim to have special knowledge of any subject. I'm doubly careful of claims by those keyboard warriors whose reaction to opposing views is steadily escalating
unpleasantness.
Exactly ...getting to the truth about anything take a great deal of effort...
the easier a "fact" is to find the less likely it is to be other than opinion dressed as fact.

Though even opinion can be very useful to understanding, as it is opinion that drive politics.
facts always need to be seen in context to have any relevant meaning.
 
you two seem to talk like you have spent time there but going by these replies it will be lucky if you have even visited.
My answer was to your question "Wow I have to ask have any of you even been to there or had close contact with anyone that is from there?". That's all. I see no point in engaging in a p***ing contest to see who knows 'China the best', cos the fact is, probably nobody on here does, to any real depth. Most folk don't even really understand the true nature of how the UK is organised, sociopolitically. As evidenced on here by those who don't think fascism is a major threat. And most people really don't understand the true extent of Western imperialism, and the impact this has had, on the entire world.

Propaganda.

I imagine that somewhere, in China, people are looking at TV images of the violence in the US, and commenting on how terrible the US regime is. They might also be looking at the UK, and commenting on it's impending social and economic collapse.

Propaganda.

As I've said already; I've no doubt terrible things are happening in China. But I also know for a fact, terrible things are happening in the name of so-called Western Democracy. Returning to the notion of 'getting your own house in order'; we can only affect global change, by showing people that a particular way of organising society, is positive and worth striving towards. Certainly, this has been partly effective, since WW2, with Europe leading the way in terms of politics and socioeconomic organisation. But that is collapsing, and we need to find new, better ways to progress. And that's not going to happen without major political change. Question is, do people have the stomach for that? The evidence we've seen so far, suggests not.

Those in Glass Houses.
 
My answer was to your question "Wow I have to ask have any of you even been to there or had close contact with anyone that is from there?". That's all. I see no point in engaging in a p***ing contest to see who knows 'China the best', cos the fact is, probably nobody on here does, to any real depth. Most folk don't even really understand the true nature of how the UK is organised, sociopolitically. As evidenced on here by those who don't think fascism is a major threat. And most people really don't understand the true extent of Western imperialism, and the impact this has had, on the entire world.

Propaganda.

I imagine that somewhere, in China, people are looking at TV images of the violence in the US, and commenting on how terrible the US regime is. They might also be looking at the UK, and commenting on it's impending social and economic collapse.

Propaganda.

As I've said already; I've no doubt terrible things are happening in China. But I also know for a fact, terrible things are happening in the name of so-called Western Democracy. Returning to the notion of 'getting your own house in order'; we can only affect global change, by showing people that a particular way of organising society, is positive and worth striving towards. Certainly, this has been partly effective, since WW2, with Europe leading the way in terms of politics and socioeconomic organisation. But that is collapsing, and we need to find new, better ways to progress. And that's not going to happen without major political change. Question is, do people have the stomach for that? The evidence we've seen so far, suggests not.

Those in Glass Houses.

It’s no P***ing contest as you make out, there are things being said about what it’s like there from people who have zero insight i was just highlighting that fact. I only talk about what I’ve seen, heard from people that live there and who have dealt in business there as I have plenty of friends that have done so also.

Yes our country might be very flawed too and I don’t deny that, but I can happily state not to that extent.

Read the news today from that area, life for talking out ... that says it all.


I had written a lengthy reply but deleted it as I do visit and have family there so I’m very weary to actually say much , so will bow out.
 
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It’s no P***ing contest as you make out, there are things being said about what it’s like there from people who have zero insight i was just highlighting that fact. I only talk about what I’ve seen, heard from people that live there and who have dealt in business there as I have plenty of friends that have done so also.

Yes our country might be very flawed too and I don’t deny that, but I can happily state not to that extent.

Read the news today from that area, life for talking out ... that says it all.


I had written a lengthy reply but deleted it as I do visit and have family there so I’m very weary to actually say much , so will bow out.

That aspect crossed my mind after reading your posts and learning of your personal situation..so fair play to you for those other posts.. So... respecting your decision..no need to reply.

Here's why I had concern.



 
It’s no P***ing contest as you make out
Well, you were going on about how having a Chinese wife, visiting china etc somehow gives you a greater insight into the reality of the situation in that country; boosting your own personal 'credentials' over those of others. So, I stand by my comment.

Yes our country might be very flawed too and I don’t deny that, but I can happily state not to that extent.
That's a particularly subjective perspective, and at what point do you become truly concerned; when the government is employing unidentifiable snatch squads to arrest individuals? Monitoring private communications? Kicking in people's doors in the middle of the night, dragging people out then having them smuggled out of the country to be imprisoned in a concentration camp, where they will be tortured into 'confessing' various crimes? Informing selected newspapers of certain court judgments, in order that hate and xenophobia against certain minority groups can be whipped up? Using the police to infiltrate legitimate groups, forming relationships with individuals, in order to undermine democracy? Using police to illegally inform private companies about union activists, in order to benefit private profit? Targeting minority groups disproportionately, to serve racist ideologies?

All this s***, and much, much more, is happening in the West. At what point DO you become concerned?
 
So, Donald f*** is going to ban TikTok. Because blah blah Chinese waffle blah users' data waffle blah etc.

FB, Twitter, Apple, Google etc etc have been doing this for years. So what's the difference? Oh; foreigners.

Pathetic. I wish we could ban Trump.

 
Pathetic. I wish we could ban Trump.
I'm reasonably confident that the U.S. electorate will grant your wish in the next few months. :naughty:
 
I'm reasonably confident that the U.S. electorate will grant your wish in the next few months. :naughty:


But a) will he accept a bad result for him or b) will he stand if he thinks he'll fail? He does NOT like losing and will lie and cheat to avoid it - ask any of the people who have had to play golf with him!
 
If he bans TikToK in the US. there are going to be millions of exceptionally disgruntled people in the USA.
I would not bet on his chances to even walk across a road in one piece.
 
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