Photo book publishers

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Ray Cox

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Ray
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Am new to this forum so hi all. I am looking for an online photo book publisher, preferably UK-based, that accepts image files in Adobe RGB 98 (which they will then convert directly to CMYK). In common with most pro snappers my workflow is based around that colour space, yet all the photo book publishers I've found request images in sRGB. This will only lead to significant colour shift and compromise in quality, even when correct colour management is applied throughout the process of conversion, soft proofing etc. My specialist subject is gardens/plants and the conversion results in a particularly noticeable drop in saturation of greens, one of the most important colours in the genre. The only company that seems to offer an option is Blurb which accepts CMYK files when you use Adobe Indesign for the layout. But I'm not familiar with the app, don't have time to learn it and can't justify the cost of having to add it to my CC Photography sub. Any help appreciated.
 
Hi and welcome to TP

Now, I am sure others will come along soon and help correct my over simplified understanding (or indeed misunderstanding?).

Are you sure that Blurb don't convert to sRGB for the actual printing?

It was my understanding that the CMYK in printing was primarily (100% ?) in regard to the wet ink printing process such as offset litho but very few photographic printing companies now print (NB inkjet is not wet in this context) wet. They use a digital print process and the files of choice are sRGB.

PS goes off to check something........?

Edit ~ the HP indigo can accept CMYK but the profile appears to be one that emulates CMYK.....so OK? Inkjet for commercial printing has come on so the Fuji Jetpress says that it exceeds CMYK gamut for better colours.

Hope you can find what you want :)
 
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First, it sounds like you just want a printer for a limited run, not a publisher? A publisher commissions you, or puts a book together from your submission, and takes it to market. Sounds more like you're self-publishing here.

InDesign isn't necessary for Blurb, only that you can output a pdf to the specified pdf standard, but I admit that it's a bit of a minefield. Another constraint beyond the one of colour space that's bothering you is that quality can be limited by the means of reproduction - and Blurb printing is good but not truly photo-quality in resolution (get out your loupe and you'll see what I mean). Have you had a Blurb book in the hand?

Sorry I'm not being much help, but if you are fixated on photo qaulity, I think that first you need a printer of photo books - ie one that uses photographic reproduction of photo files (so not Blurb). So It's maybe down to finding one who'll accept Adobe rgb? Surely, somewhere out there ...? Also, have you tried the sRGB route through to actual print? If not, do a proof run.

As an aside and if it was required, soft proofing and cmyk conversion are easy in PS, but I don't think it likely that cmyk is relevant to a photo book - it's more relevant to a conventional / digital press - shall we say general purposes?
 
Box Brownie said:
They use a digital print process and the files of choice are sRGB.
Click to expand...
Blurb use (or used to use) HP Indigo presses. If you want to send them a pdf with embedded images from your page layout program they offer a cmyk profile to suit their presses that you can embed. So it's up to you.
 
Box Brownie said:
one that emulates CMYK
Click to expand...
Well that's a mystery, because it exists as cmyk in photoshop ... and my memory is that that's what you embed into the page layout and exported pdf. (I have done this).
 
From a firm offering Indigo printing - "The HP Indigo digital press uses CMYK (cyan/ magenta/yellow/black) inks as its base set. They conform to the PANTONE®* ink. Predictable color output can only really be achieved if you also work in the same CMYK color space. All data that you send the HP Indigo digital press should be converted to CMYK too."

They go on to say this - "
Many images start off being digitally captured, whether by camera or scanner, in the RGB (red/blue/green) color space. The RGB color space is much larger than the CMYK color space and this means it is able to display a much wider gamut of colors than can be achieved using CMYK. The colors tend to be more subtle and brighter. How often have you noticed that your images look better on screen CMYK?

Because of its color gamut it is advisable to work for as long as possible with an RGB image. This has several advantages:

1. It enables the maximum number of color hues to be digitized for the production of the highest quality prints and images. Always save a copy of your RGB image - it may be useful later for including in a web page.

2. You will find that RGB images are faster to work with in image manipulation applications than CMYK and also take up less disk space.

3. You can control the RGB to CMYK conversion more accurately if you need to. But remember, once you have converted your RGB image to CMYK you cannot regain the same gamut of color by converting it back. Once the conversion has taken place all the "extra" color attributed to the RGB gamut is lost, and while you can convert a CMYK image into an RGB image you cannot regenerate that lost color. However, before you use your image in a design that is to be printed on an HP Indigo digital press you should convert it to CMYK. This way you will see in advance the appearance of the image. In particular you may notice that the greens and oranges may not be as bright but this unfortunately is the world of CMYK. If you don't convert it then the RIP will perform a default conversion that may give you unexpected results. One of the elements essential to a good CMYK conversion is the control of the black layer, whether in traditional offset or digital print. HP Indigo digital presses do not escape this rule." (Hi-Tech Color in Boise, Idaho)
 
So if you send sRGB to Blurb, it seems that their Indigo RIP converts those images on the fly to CMYK. And you won't have had any preview until the copy's returned to you. Not to say that it won't work to send sRGB ..I'm just saying how it is.

In the meantime I got a Blurb book down and put the loupe on an image in it, and guess what - the dots were C, M, Y and K!
 
Ray there might be another consideration in all this melee, which is the feel of the paper used - texture and colour, but maybe above all, weight. It's getting all the things to hang together that makes for a pleasing book.
 
Thanks to droj and Box Brownie for your contributions. Just to clarify, the purpose of the photo books is indeed self-publishing: limited print runs for private clients commissining me to produce a book on their garden. My core market til now is the print media which take files in Adobe RGB 98. I expected the self-publshing photo book companies to use similar printing process, but as said they all seem to want sRGB. The issue isn't so much the conversion to CMYK - this is really the job of the printers to make sure that any colour shift from RGB is kept to an acceptable minimum. And of course I have the option to soft proof in P'Shop. The issue is the book companies' insistance in requiring images in Adobe 98 to be converted to the smaller RGB colour space. And that applies whether you opt for a book format where they use the digital printing process OR one that uses photo paper/wet system, both of which are offered by most companies. It helps a bit when they provide an ICC profile to allow accurate soft proofing but trying to get one of these for the specific paper you've chosen is like getting blood from a stone. On a more positive note, a few years ago I did get a social book published by one of these companies. Layflat design on photo paper using the wet printing process, and despite the fact I had to submit the files in sRGB the quality on the page was impressive. My issue now is that a book on gardens involves a much wider colour gamut and the client tends to be very conscious of how the colours of the subject matter (flowers, foliage etc) should look. Hence my wish to submit files in my standard Adobe RGB 98 colour space in order to retain the maximum amount of colour info and yield predictable results on the page. Incidentally these companies don't offer test prints so the first book I do will effectively be a 'test' book. Of course the other option would be to go to a traditional printer but then the cost becomes prohibitive for small print runs and they don't offer easy-to-master design software.
 
The only way to see what the quality is like is to make a short page count book with a range of images as a proof copy. If you choose Blurb wait until they have an offer on (40% off at times) and it won't' hurt too much.

I've made a dozen or so books with Blurb and I'd class the quality as acceptable for my personal use. I'm not sure I'd want to charge someone else enough to make a profit from the books though as they are expensive on short runs.

If the customer is willing to pay for quality then perhaps look to the printers wedding photographers use for their work.
 
As it happens I've opted for a company other than Blurb and will see how the test book turns out. Juggler, thanks for the Loxley suggestion, had forgotten about them.
 
Hope you can share your conclusions here, Ray, once you have the test copy in hand.
 
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