Ring of fire/backlit shots,techs and ETTR Advice please

Stuart Philpott

Stuart Philpott

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Stu
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Guys can you give me some techs to start me off say shooting a hare/deer at 30M into the sun at around sunset.
Could you also tell me how I should expose....here is a bit on why I'm confused

We all understand that ETTR exposing to the right, gives us the best possible most detailed file to work from,It also means we don't have to boost exposure,so capturing the best possible rendition of noise.

Now I believe that one would under expose the above shot in some cases by quite a lot,this is to saturate colours and obviously enhance the backlighting hitting our subject,but won't that then give us a more noisy image than if one pushed exposure. the other problem of course is SS. By under exposing we have a faster shutter so more likely to capture a sharp frame ,especially important for us as our subjects do move. At sunset here that SS is dropping rapidely,so ISO is being employed at higher levels,increasing the possibility of a noisy image

Looking for some thoughts and advice here please guys. I'm going to get chances in this situation it's very likely and I'm not happy with my skillset to deal with it at all at the moment,being more than a little confused on which way I should go ,to grab the best possible image quality I can muster

Thanks so much for reading this and any help in advance,I feel I'm missing something and I just know i'm going to get chances they are already happening

many thanks

Stu
ps base premise of lit subject dark bkg camera in shade for best results understood
 
Hi Stuart ,i am no expert in this field at all,but what i found was a few pracice shots ,and i say this because i went armed with settings for a simalar situation with the owls ,and i came away with shots i didnt envisage at all,i gave that up and just tried a few settings untill i got the end result i liked ...it took a few attempts untill i got something i believed i could work with in PP.
 
The camera doesn't always do quite what I expect at this time of day Den,(oh cheers for the reply very kind:)). Did you basically approach this from the point of view of under exposing. It's someitmes hard to grab more than a couple of takes Den,so not always do I get the chance to vary techs and ponder. I sort of don't feel I know the base of what I should be trying for in camera Den .I feel if I had a better handle on that then I might get nearer to what I would like to achieve even if the techs might cary from one situation to another

many thanks mate hope your good

Stu
 
very tricky shot and likely to end up with silhouette of the hare or deer. possible options that come to mind are 1) take bracketed shots one exposed for the sky one for the ground and combine afterwards. this would work if the subject is static, 2) use an ND grad filter to reduce brightness of the sky, 3) use a flash to provide fill light as long as this doesn't disturb the subject. could be off camera and near the subject
 
newbie1 said:
very tricky shot and likely to end up with silhouette of the hare or deer. possible options that come to mind are 1) take bracketed shots one exposed for the sky one for the ground and combine afterwards. this would work if the subject is static, 2) use an ND grad filter to reduce brightness of the sky, 3) use a flash to provide fill light as long as this doesn't disturb the subject. could be off camera and near the subject
Click to expand...


Hey buddy cheers for the help,what's ya name??

I'm not so much going for the shot where the sky features,hence in part my post script(dark BKG), Certainly, where I feel I will have this chance again soonest (with some hares), images will def not feature sky.I don't have access to flash,but probably would find it impossible to use anyway as I tend to stalk ,even a tripod is a hinderance/ impossiblity, when one is face down in the mud with very little cover in the middle of a field,as I so often am.. The bracketing had crossed my mind,but the subject is so rarely still,it doesn't seem I'd get the chance to go there very often..

Mate thanks for taking the time,it's very kind,my reply might seem slightly ungrateful it's not that at all:) i'm just trying to run through what I actually might be able to use, in the actual situations I envisage,from your suggestions
thanks muchly mate:)

Stu
 
If you just want the hare or deer subject properly exposed and not worried about the sky then you could try "spot meter" mode on the subject. Look forward to see the results
 
Arrive early and get into a position where the sun is behind you is the only logical answer .in all honesty there is no reliable work round for shooting into the sun
 
Don't forget sunrise can also give you some good light too (y)

As others have said, plenty of trial & error.

The nearest I have to anything similar was at dawn with the sun more to the side;

"wonder if i'm allowed in" by Carl B, on Flickr

This was taken later in the day, but again the sun was more to the side than directly behind.

Brown hare (Lepus europaeus) by Carl B, on Flickr

(Just looked at the Exif, they were both spot metered)
 
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Sounds to me like you have a reasonable grasp of the situation... the only issue is that it's not possible to expose "optimally" for both the subject and the BG (without additional lighting).

I generally opt for silhouettes.


Wapiti by Steven Kersting, on Flickr


_SGK3693.jpg by Steven Kersting, on Flickr
 
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Only just seen this Stu.

As we all know, there's more than one way to skin a cat! And although some won't agree with me, this is my way :)

Firstly, I'm sure you'll already know most of this, so apologies mate if it looks like am teaching Grandma to suck eggs :D

I never alter the meter mode ever and always use matrix on Nikon, (can't remember if you're nikon or canon mate) Matrix evaluates the whole picture. The reason for always using matrix, I've (hopefully :D) learnt when the meter is being fooled by the light, as in the example you given above, harsh back lighting.

With harsh back lighting Stu, I feel there's always going to be a compromise but we have to look at getting as much of the subject correctly exposed as possible and to get that has to be over- exposure on the meter set to matrix, usually, a good guess would be 2 stops.

As with most wildlife/birds the most important factor is shutter speed, it all moves fast, even when sat/stood still :rolleyes:, my personal choice is 1/1000th plus. These days, I also like f8, possibly a little sharper but certainly a tad more dof, that leaves ISO, this is where I will always try get extra stops of light from.

Here's a shot from a couple of years ago. I always try and put meself between the setting sun and the owls. This one had flown past me and I lost it. When I looked round it was behind me, flying back to the nest in between me and the sun!

Two stops over-exposed on the meter, meter set on matrix and shot in raw got me the shot below with a little pp'ing. Not the sharpest shot I've ever taken but a wild Long-eared Owl with a kill was something I'd dreamt of and being back lit just seemed to make it better :)


Long-eared Owl with Vole by Phil D, on Flickr
 
Guys huge thanks for all the thoughts,sorry i've been slow to reply,just missed them somehow,my humble apologies.

Folks,I haven't really stressed the ring of fire aspect enough,the image /s i'm trying to achieve and was requesting info about are centered on the ring of fire and how that is achieved,not so much backlit,which i feel I have a better handle on dealing with. i'm really sorry about this guys ,you have gone to some effort to help me and that help because of my poor comunication isn't really centered on what I'm trying to achieve.

I want to shoot towards the sun at around sunset or rise(just sunset is more likely (for me) and produce an image where my subjects' silhouette is surrounded by a ring of bright highlights essentially with the colours of sunset in them. The silhouette may or may not have detail in,but certainly to a lesser degree than says Phil's cool LEO shot above.

Steve's (thank you mate, much appreciation) images above are close to where I want to go,but haven'y got the crucial ring of fire aspect i'm searching for.

Here is one of my images,where I haven't got it right,but have got on the way to getting this type of shot. The hare is quite recent and is also in my hare thread, in wildlife,but it serves a purpose here. This image made me write this as I know i'm not dealing with the situation as well as I might have done.

_70F6912 by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr


I've been researching since posting,and as always with photography guys have helped me. It is awesome how folks give so much time to help educate another,I'm really grateful to everyone here whom has posted,even though i've let the side down a bit,with my comunication.

From what i've been advised the above shot is taken too late. I needed much stronger sunlight and the sun all but right behind the subject. this would make the ring of fire hilights outlining our hare much stronger and also naturally create more of a silhouette with less detail than I have achieved.. I then expose for hilights so not blowing them,which essentially underexposes the rest of the image. That under exposed image was part of my confusion. Because the simple penny hadn't dropped that an under exposed image isn't essentlially noisy it's boosting that under exposed image that bring in the noise. The image above I tried to expose to the right and then brought exposure down to try to create what I wanted,but obviously my approach was wrong also me Ss too slow hampering sharpness.

If anyone can add to this last bit and improve my understand of even put my right if I have understood things incorrectly please chime in. I think I have a much better handle now,but there is always something more to learn,just need some ruddy sunsets now and an obliging subject in the right place at the right time.

Again apologies. I find these somewhat different shots to the norm incredibly appealing artistically so have huge appreciation for all the help you guys have chucked at me

many thanks all

Stu
 
There are really only two ways to record highlights.

One is that the light is high enough to hit the edges and reflect towards the camera, this will give "an edge" as show on the elk antlers in my second image. But it won't give a "ring."
To get a ring of light you are dependent on translucency of the subject... i.e. the light has to be (nearly) directly behind and what is recorded is the light that shines *through* the finer hair along the edges... as shown on the front of your rabbit image. That is going to require a lot of luck and the perfect subject.
A third option is to record "a halo" which is where the light behind the subject is larger than the subject... but I don't think that is what you are wanting.

In all cases, how bright the ring is (contrast) is going to depend on how bright the light source is... It may well require selective editing to get the exact look/contrast you are wanting.

Untitled-1.jpg
 
sk66 said:
There are really only two ways to record highlights.

One is that the light is high enough to hit the edges and reflect towards the camera, this will give "an edge" as show on the elk antlers in my second image. But it won't give a "ring."
To get a ring of light you are dependent on translucency of the subject... i.e. the light has to be (nearly) directly behind and what is recorded is the light that shines *through* the finer hair along the edges... as shown on the front of your rabbit image. That is going to require a lot of luck and the perfect subject.
A third option is to record "a halo" which is where the light behind the subject is larger than the subject... but I don't think that is what you are wanting.

In all cases, how bright the ring is (contrast) is going to depend on how bright the light source is... It may well require selective editing to get the exact look/contrast you are wanting.

View attachment 100894
Click to expand...

Steve again the thanks,and again the apology,huge thanks for baring with me. I feel I am pretty much up to speed now,until I actually get a chance to try. Primary subjects will be hare and deer, so I'm hoping that edge of fur and stronger light than above,plus exposing in the right direction ie under,will give me a start at least. I do realise this chance won't come that often Steve,but I do have one spot where the frequency of chances may well be fair to middling. where the above image was taken actually. I felt so out of my depth at the time that was taken Steve and so grateful for the thoughts which have lead me to now.where I feel at least a have understood the concept of what I should be trying to do in camera. cheers for the edit,yeah I went all over the place in my basic post processing with exposure,but feel beyond the actual lack on knowledge at shutter press i'd waited too long and light wasn't quite strong enough to really show the highlights well. It's going to be a learning curve just to work out the intensity of light i'm looking for mate. i'm already very aware of how fast things change at sunset sun up i need to leanr more and be able to appraise the situation better

It's all good Steve, most forms of back lit fascinate me,I have something to work with now,the rest I feel is going to be down to getting the odd chance and learning da ropes which is frankly exciting to me,I love the way the light works Steve when we shot the wrong way to the sun ,maybe I shouldn't but I do. :D

I guess after sitting on a subject like I tend to do,gives one a base array of images. The longer spent with that subject the more one is starting to look for some different ways of trying to capture an attractive image of expressing that animal in a photograph. Behaviours of the subject are where we oft look, in my case first I guess. But as a tog I feel I should be exploring light and how the camera represents that as an equal

Cheers bro very kind,same for all the other posters here

Now when is this ruddy rain and cloud going to stop so I might just get a chance:D

seeya

Stu
 
Stuart Philpott said:
,plus exposing in the right direction ie under
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I don't think underexposure in-camera is the way to go... I would push the highlights as bright as I could before clipping. Because it's backlit the front will be "underexposed," but possibly lighter than desired. However, it's easier to reduce exposure in post overall/selectively than it is to have to increase exposure, especially with dark scenes.
 
sk66 said:
I don't think underexposure in-camera is the way to go... I would push the highlights as bright as I could before clipping. Because it's backlit the front will be "underexposed," but possibly lighter than desired. However, it's easier to reduce exposure in post overall/selectively than it is to have to increase exposure, especially with dark scenes.
Click to expand...

Steve yes that is what I'm trying to say....... expose for the highlights it will throw the subject under and plausibly BKG too in some senarios so the overal appearance would be of an underexposed image. Steve I genuinly think I am on the same page with you,ha ha finally:D,Again my comunication, skills maybe not getting out quite where my head is at,but I understand exactly where you are steering me,

Thank you

Steven, you are a talented guy mate, I look, don't always get to repl:(y. It's lovely how so many of you with "that" talent for this try to help others along. CHEERS:cool:

take care

stu
 
Did you mean something like this?

canadian.jpg


It really does depend on the situation but reading your comments I think you got the gist of it. When there's water involved, like the above example, matrix metering will be fine as the highlight from the reflection usually cause the scene to underexpose anyway. But on land, you'll have to manually control this. But the key ingredient is light. Not all backlit situation can produce the effect.

Hope this helps.
 
Hi Des,well that would do:rolleyes:,ha ha and some.:D Des I think I'm there thanks for taking the time to read through stop by and give me a push ,very kind. I think all the help has given me the understanding ,I just need the field experience now and practice practice,but these chances will come when they do

Des,matrix is nikon isn't it evaluate is the canon equilivent isn't it. I always shoot EV and manual,rarely use TV or AV actually,figured if set always the techs best I can for each shot I might learn a bit quicker what works what not. Water may or may not feature but its a wonderful example above and the little tip with it something that has been logged!!.

Des that is a stunning image ,,it's has everything fantastic POV looks killer sharp the lit silhouette the mist the light and I suppose overal what interests me so much "the atmosphere" all these facets create. If you see this would you mind sharing the techs please.
Oh one final word,that's a canada goose isn't it? So is this taken in blighty? If so two things what time of day please,especially relative to when the sunset(roughly) and it's this the most beguiling example of what beauty can be found in the most simple and common of subjects. I absolutely adore the above image Des cheers for sharing it with me and the help as with Steve the talent and trying to help another,tisa lovely thing!!

I think I have everything understood now Des to really have a go cheers for the thoughts and also that belter of an image

stu
 
Hi Stu, yes, it's a Canadian Goose taken in this country. I tend to do projects in this case I spent a few weeks working with this 'common' bird. For me it matters little what the subject is - I find all wildlife fascinating. In fact, making images of common subjects stand out can be more challenging.

The techs are of little use as you'll never get the exact same conditions. But just for your reference it was shot at 7am, 500mm, f6.3 (f4 lens), 1/4000th, ISO400, with a D700 (full-frame sensor). Understanding light is key, as well as knowing how to work with it to achieve what your want. The latter takes a bit of practice.
 
dragonfly said:
Hi Stu, yes, it's a Canadian Goose taken in this country. I tend to do projects in this case I spent a few weeks working with this 'common' bird. For me it matters little what the subject is - I find all wildlife fascinating. In fact, making images of common subjects stand out can be more challenging.

The techs are of little use as you'll never get the exact same conditions. But just for your reference it was shot at 7am, 500mm, f6.3 (f4 lens), 1/4000th, ISO400, with a D700 (full-frame sensor). Understanding light is key, as well as knowing how to work with it to achieve what your want. The latter takes a bit of practice.
Click to expand...

Adore your outlook Des !! Thanks for the extra bits and the come back.. Projects,yes I'm heading that way myself I guess Des, tending to sit on a subject for a while. One has to know them to capture their spirit, I guess is the mindset. Like the hares you are aware of already.

Much wisdom there about the light understanding it and working with it Des. Thanks for the techs, they just gives me ballparks really for similar situations.

Thanks again Des need some chances now
take care

Stu
 
dragonfly said:
Nailed it!
Click to expand...
Ha ha, thanks Des,:) The way of thinking really is being afirmed with the haress. I find it magical seeing all the new behavious that one hasn't seen before,it almost feels a bond forms,difficult to articulate,but you know what I mean anyway

many many thanks Des

stu.
 
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