Rugby shots - critique appreciated - new shots added

[ShawWellPete]

Hi guys,

I am lucky enough to have picked up a Nikon 300m 2.8 and the 1.4 and 1.7 TCs. I bought it to use on safari and wanted to get some practice with it before I go in December. My son was playing rugby for his school team yesterday so I thought I'd go along and take some pictures and get some practice.

I used a monopod and tried using the lens on it's own and with both TCs. I found it pretty tricky to follow the action trough the viewfinder, particularly using the 1.7, any tips on how to get better shots? I wasn't even sure where the best place to stand was, I tended to be on the side of the pitch and tried to follow the action up and down but often found I was too far away or too close!

Here are a few of the shots I got, there are more here.

 

[gramps]

Plenty of action here so you got some decent points in the game.
#1 you seem to have missed focus on his face/head and the focus is on his shoulders.
#2 & 3 look good with the action contained except for the foot slightly cut off to the left in #3.
#4 looks soft so focus missed I would think.
#5 has a lot of bits cut off and again looks a little soft to me.

The 300 f2.8 VRII is one of the sharpest of Nikons lenses and works really well with all of the TC's (Mk2 & Mk3) but for sport I would doubt the need for more than the 1.4 as 400mm seems to be the chosen ideal long range lens for field sports.
Those that do field sports can advise regarding where to stand but for me, using TC's needs practice as well as knowing when not to use them ... with a D800 giving plenty of crop-ability there may be times when it is better to resist the TC to make finding and framing easier.

 

[ShawWellPete]

Plenty of action here so you got some decent points in the game.
#1 you seem to have missed focus on his face/head and the focus is on his shoulders.
#2 & 3 look good with the action contained except for the foot slightly cut off to the left in #3.
#4 looks soft so focus missed I would think.
#5 has a lot of bits cut off and again looks a little soft to me.

The 300 f2.8 VRII is one of the sharpest of Nikons lenses and works really well with all of the TC's (Mk2 & Mk3) but for sport I would doubt the need for more than the 1.4 as 400mm seems to be the chosen ideal long range lens for field sports.
Those that do field sports can advise regarding where to stand but for me, using TC's needs practice as well as knowing when not to use them ... with a D800 giving plenty of crop-ability there may be times when it is better to resist the TC to make finding and framing easier.

Thanks for the good advice

 

[ShawWellPete]

If anybody comes across this thread while searching, there is some great general sports photography advice on this thread in the tutorial section.

 

[KIPAX]

If anybody comes across this thread while searching, there is some great general sports photography advice on this thread in the tutorial section.

I would take great chunks of it with a pinch of salt... spot metering? 500 (changed to 640) is just plain bad advice

 

[brizrob]

Stand behind the in-goal areas, in either corner, the players running towards you making for the best action shots, plus you're on hand if any tries are scored. No need to run up and down following the action, wait for it to come to you. The occasional wander is fine but don't chase the game.

With a 300, just use the 1.4 if you must. 1.7 is overkill.

Your pics look like you're sat down, in which case that's good. I'm constantly amazed how many rugby/football photographers seem to think standing up makes for good photos.

2. Needs straightening. Judge using the verticals in a scene, in this case the posts. This is the best shot of the bunch.

3. Throw away. Nothing of interest, nothing to focus the eye.

5. Throw away. Head cut in half, two arms one on either side cut in half, carrier looking awkward and yep, cut in half.

I'd be tempted to suggest just sticking with the 300 by itself and learning how to frame good action.

 

[jamesev]

I would take great chunks of it with a pinch of salt... spot metering? 500 (changed to 640) is just plain bad advice

I would be inclined to agree. If you are going for spot metering then meter on each teams top and split the difference and go manual, Reason being if you have one team in black one in white you'll be adjusting highlights and shadow clipping.

Shoot wide open - again not good (unless its really dark and you are pushing exposure). If you are using an f2.8 and filling the frame then you are unlikely to get the one or two players all in focus. F4 is sharper, will retain the isolation between focus and background whilst still having a background noticeable.

AF point - seems to be a bit ambiguous. Many cameras now allow variations in AF points single/25 / 72 I would go 25 or 72.

Shutter I would be inclined to potentially push this to 800 or 1000 depending on the sport. A ball travelling 50 miles per hour is over 2000 cm a second. In 1/1000 second it will travel 2 cm (3.4 cm in 1/640th) thats alot to get sharp, unless you want a bit of motion blur on the ball.

 

[KIPAX]

I would be inclined to agree. If you are going for spot metering then meter on each teams top and split the difference and go manual, Reason being if you have one team in black one in white you'll be adjusting highlights and shadow clipping.

Shoot wide open - again not good (unless its really dark and you are pushing exposure). If you are using an f2.8 and filling the frame then you are unlikely to get the one or two players all in focus. F4 is sharper, will retain the isolation between focus and background whilst still having a background noticeable.

AF point - seems to be a bit ambiguous. Many cameras now allow variations in AF points single/25 / 72 I would go 25 or 72.

Shutter I would be inclined to potentially push this to 800 or 1000 depending on the sport. A ball travelling 50 miles per hour is over 2000 cm a second. In 1/1000 second it will travel 2 cm (3.4 cm in 1/640th) thats alot to get sharp, unless you want a bit of motion blur on the ball.

I mostly shoot F4 as posted many times in here unless poor light so wholeheartedly agree...


shutter is a big thing around here.. too many people have latched onto 500 minimum that the above article started with ...OMG ...

the problem of advising shutter speeds is people who are less knowledgable will start changing aperture and iso to try and get it DOWN to 800 or 1000 ?

If you ahve plenty of light then set the aperture you want and the iso you want and whats left is the shutter which could be thousands not 640 haha..

if poor light set the aperture wide open and the iso what you want and see whats left for shutter.. IF too slow then up the iso remembering the golden rule -- you can save a noisy picture you cant save a blurred picture

shutter speed will also depend on lens using.. a 24-70 can get away wiht less than a 400mm .. a 70-200 on a tripod can get more than no tripod.. a 300 hand held...and so on..

theres lots of things to consider and setting an actual shutter speed for people to aim at (without knowing what they are shooting or with) as poor advice IMHO and thats all it is.. just IMHO

 

[ShawWellPete]

My apologies for not responding guys, I thought I had email notification on

I would take great chunks of it with a pinch of salt... spot metering? 500 (changed to 640) is just plain bad advice

Stand behind the in-goal areas, in either corner, the players running towards you making for the best action shots, plus you're on hand if any tries are scored. No need to run up and down following the action, wait for it to come to you. The occasional wander is fine but don't chase the game.

With a 300, just use the 1.4 if you must. 1.7 is overkill.

Your pics look like you're sat down, in which case that's good. I'm constantly amazed how many rugby/football photographers seem to think standing up makes for good photos.

2. Needs straightening. Judge using the verticals in a scene, in this case the posts. This is the best shot of the bunch.

3. Throw away. Nothing of interest, nothing to focus the eye.

5. Throw away. Head cut in half, two arms one on either side cut in half, carrier looking awkward and yep, cut in half.

I'd be tempted to suggest just sticking with the 300 by itself and learning how to frame good action.

All taken on board - thank you, I was actually standing, and I'm 6ft 4" but I'll take a fold up chair today and see if it helps.

I would be inclined to agree. If you are going for spot metering then meter on each teams top and split the difference and go manual, Reason being if you have one team in black one in white you'll be adjusting highlights and shadow clipping.

Shoot wide open - again not good (unless its really dark and you are pushing exposure). If you are using an f2.8 and filling the frame then you are unlikely to get the one or two players all in focus. F4 is sharper, will retain the isolation between focus and background whilst still having a background noticeable.

AF point - seems to be a bit ambiguous. Many cameras now allow variations in AF points single/25 / 72 I would go 25 or 72.

Shutter I would be inclined to potentially push this to 800 or 1000 depending on the sport. A ball travelling 50 miles per hour is over 2000 cm a second. In 1/1000 second it will travel 2 cm (3.4 cm in 1/640th) thats alot to get sharp, unless you want a bit of motion blur on the ball.

Got it, thanks

I mostly shoot F4 as posted many times in here unless poor light so wholeheartedly agree...


shutter is a big thing around here.. too many people have latched onto 500 minimum that the above article started with ...OMG ...

the problem of advising shutter speeds is people who are less knowledgable will start changing aperture and iso to try and get it DOWN to 800 or 1000 ?

If you ahve plenty of light then set the aperture you want and the iso you want and whats left is the shutter which could be thousands not 640 haha..

if poor light set the aperture wide open and the iso what you want and see whats left for shutter.. IF too slow then up the iso remembering the golden rule -- you can save a noisy picture you cant save a blurred picture

shutter speed will also depend on lens using.. a 24-70 can get away wiht less than a 400mm .. a 70-200 on a tripod can get more than no tripod.. a 300 hand held...and so on..

theres lots of things to consider and setting an actual shutter speed for people to aim at (without knowing what they are shooting or with) as poor advice IMHO and thats all it is.. just IMHO

All good advice, thank you



I am going back today and have been asked by the sports teacher to do some hockey shots too. Slightly worried about fast moving wooden ball and my new lens!

I'll try to follow the advice on this thread and share the results

 

[ShawWellPete]

I had another go today and found the advice really helped, thank you. I still have a long way to go but found the following really helped

Taking a chair and staying more or less in one place each half
Setting the camera to manual with auto ISO and keeping aperture at 2.8-4.0 and generally having a shutter speed of above 1/1000 sec

The full set is here
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C&C very much appreciated

 

[jamesev]

I had another go today and found the advice really helped, thank you. I still have a long way to go but found the following really helped

Taking a chair and staying more or less in one place each half
Setting the camera to manual with auto ISO and keeping aperture at 2.8-4.0 and generally having a shutter speed of above 1/1000 sec


C&C very much appreciated

You can see from the grass where the action is a little further away the DOF you are getting with each F.

However the theory says

with 400mm @ 40 Meters away / F4 you get 2.4 m DOF, at f2.8 you only get 1.7m DOF

 

[ShawWellPete]

Thanks James, do you think I should have closed down a bit more for some of the shots?

 

[jamesev]

Thank James, do you think I should have closed down a bit more for some of the shots?

Possibly. Its always a tough call if you have say two players on opposing teams together, the defending player about to tackle then maybe another player on the attacking team who is there for a pass about 4 meters away. Do you crop to the two players for close up drama or go a bit wider and give more context.

 

[KIPAX]

Thank James, do you think I should have closed down a bit more for some of the shots?

I tend to use f4 (the same reasons as james) for field sports like this.. f2.8 IF the light is low OR if in a pro ground where I need to seperate the background (enclosed or colour clash with bg) 2.8 gives a great affect when the background is close ..but the level your at it doesnt add anything at all so your better f4 for more in focus and to be honest probably more keepers..

 

[brizrob]

f3.2 should be fine to give you a bit more leeway and a nice effect with the background

 

[ShawWellPete]

Possibly. Its always a tough call if you have say two players on opposing teams together, the defending player about to tackle then maybe another player on the attacking team who is there for a pass about 4 meters away. Do you crop to the two players for close up drama or go a bit wider and give more context.

I tend to use f4 (the same reasons as james) for field sports like this.. f2.8 IF the light is low OR if in a pro ground where I need to seperate the background (enclosed or colour clash with bg) 2.8 gives a great affect when the background is close ..but the level your at it doesnt add anything at all so your better f4 for more in focus and to be honest probably more keepers..

f3.2 should be fine to give you a bit more leeway and a nice effect with the background

Thanks for the advice guys, the light wasn't bad and I first tried aperture priority with the aperture between 2.8 and 4 and auto ISO with a minimum of 1000 to encourage a high shutter speed. I switched to manual with auto ISO and left the shutter speed at 1/1250 and fluctuated again between 2.8 and 4. I preferred the second method, even at F4 I was getting 1600-2200 ISO which gives perfectly usable files from the D800.

 

[Jim_Tod]

Thanks for the advice guys, the light wasn't bad and I first tried aperture priority with the aperture between 2.8 and 4 and auto ISO with a minimum of 1000 to encourage a high shutter speed. I switched to manual with auto ISO and left the shutter speed at 1/1250 and fluctuated again between 2.8 and 4. I preferred the second method, even at F4 I was getting 1600-2200 ISO which gives perfectly usable files from the D800.

I might be missing something in what you’re saying but do you know that you can set aperture priority with min shutter speed, stick min and max iso in there and get both aperture and shutter speed under your control provided light good enough to get iso within your max, viewfinder lets you know when thats an issue

Apologies if i’m telling you how to suck eggs but it reads like you’re hoping for a fast shutter rather than controlling shutter speed at your preferred aperture

 

[ShawWellPete]

I might be missing something in what you’re saying but do you know that you can set aperture priority with min shutter speed, stick min and max iso in there and get both aperture and shutter speed under your control provided light good enough to get iso within your max, viewfinder lets you know when thats an issue

Apologies if i’m telling you how to suck eggs but it reads like you’re hoping for a fast shutter rather than controlling shutter speed at your preferred aperture

I don’t think I can on the d800, I can set ISO to auto and then adjust the minimum shutter speed to be the standard for the focal length or a bit faster or slower.

I could be wrong though?

 

[Jim_Tod]

and then adjust the minimum shutter speed to be the standard for the focal length or a bit faster or slower.

So if you set the min shutter speed to 1/1000 of a second as something faster than reciprocal of focal length then that is you controlling min shutter speed- nothing slower than 1/1000 until light gets bad and it beats the auto iso max which you have set

 

[ShawWellPete]

So if you set the min shutter speed to 1/1000 of a second as something faster than reciprocal of focal length then that is you controlling min shutter speed- nothing slower than 1/1000 until light gets bad and it beats the auto iso max which you have set

That is a very good point Jim and something I foolishly hadn’t thought of. Thank you!

 

[KIPAX]

Shooting sport I would stay away from the focul length shutter speed rule..

 

[brizrob]

There's no need for Auto ISO, just set to manual, 2.8, shutter speed of 1/1250-1600 and adjust the ISO accordingly. Easy. Auto ISO doesn't produce great results.

 

[Jim_Tod]

There's no need for Auto ISO, just set to manual, 2.8, shutter speed of 1/1250-1600 and adjust the ISO accordingly. Easy. Auto ISO doesn't produce great results.

Out of interest, whats the difference to the image between being in aperture priority at 2.8, setting min shutter speed at 1/1250 and auto iso min at 100 iso, max where your camera is good for and being in manual mode with aperture at 2.8, shutter speed at 1/1250 and adjusting the iso accordingly?

What about the auto iso doesnt produce great results?

 

[brizrob]

Out of interest, whats the difference to the image between being in aperture priority at 2.8, setting min shutter speed at 1/1250 and auto iso min at 100 iso, max where your camera is good for and being in manual mode with aperture at 2.8, shutter speed at 1/1250 and adjusting the iso accordingly?

What about the auto iso doesnt produce great results?

Just because you use Auto ISO doesn't mean the camera will expose the scene properly, it only works 50% of the time in my experience. You're giving it complete control and it doesn't always produce the best results, often over or underexposing by a stop or more. Yes you might think the images are passable, but they're not the best they could be. Take a few test images to get the right exposure settings, then shoot that way, making small adjustments as the light goes down/up. Your eyes are better at judging.

The only reason you might use Auto ISO is if the light was constantly changing, say with the sun coming out/in all the time. I sometimes use Auto ISO on my second body for try shots when I neglect to constantly change the settings to compensate for the varying light.