Scary Stuff going on in China, Genocide in a modern world?

There is no doubt that religion can create duality when it comes to loyalty between God and the state. All countries establish an order of priority.
In Muslim ones the supreme power often lays with the religious authorities.
In other countries it lays with the state power.
Most countries fudge the issue and suggest that they, the state, serve God , but receive their authority from god.
The Chinese are firmly in the camp that maintains that the State retains the Authority of the people.
However they concede that some people follow religious beliefs, but that these must never conflict with the power of the state.

It is certainly to be expected that in those situations Extreme religious beliefs would be considered treasonable and dealt with accordingly.

This however conflicts with the liberal understanding of freedom of religion.
It is reasonable to suggest that there is a point where exercising freedom conflicts with the law established by the people.
 
There is no doubt that religion can create duality when it comes to loyalty between God and the state. All countries establish an order of priority.
In Muslim ones the supreme power often lays with the religious authorities.
In other countries it lays with the state power.
Most countries fudge the issue and suggest that they, the state, serve God , but receive their authority from god.
The Chinese are firmly in the camp that maintains that the State retains the Authority of the people.
However they concede that some people follow religious beliefs, but that these must never conflict with the power of the state.

It is certainly to be expected that in those situations Extreme religious beliefs would be considered treasonable and dealt with accordingly.

This however conflicts with the liberal understanding of freedom of religion.
It is reasonable to suggest that there is a point where exercising freedom conflicts with the law established by the people.

This is where much of the conflict comes from with the Muslim population. When push comes to shove they will choose religion over country. Making true integration impossible.
 
Well I feel I better watch what I say as no lie last time me and my wife(From there) got into a heated discussion over the virus and politics with phones and laptops at hand. I later received a call/ computer voice msg in Chinese, which was very weird [emoji15] and has been the only one like that I have ever received.
 
Well I feel I better watch what I say as no lie last time me and my wife(From there) got into a heated discussion over the virus and politics with phones and laptops at hand. I later received a call/ computer voice msg in Chinese, which was very weird [emoji15] and has been the only one like that I have ever received.

Spooky.
I sometimes receive messages after rowing with my wife but they tend to be Anglo Saxon.
 
Dumb and Dumber...
 
Until the recent unrest and crack down I had almost no conception. as to who the Uyghurs were.

From the link below, and further reading on the web. it is clear that they occupy a massive a border state much like Afghanistan, the Kyber Region. the Basques look and the Kurds, and many other regions that might be considerd buffer states and that have no clear loyalties except to themselves.
By their nature such states and peoples have changed hands many times while still retaining a strong cultural heritage.

The Uyghurs are no exception to this, and have been at best uneasy participants in the Chinese state. Nor have they, as a mainly rural people, welcomed modernisation or an urban and technological way of life, nor the influx of large numbers of more wealthy educated Han Chinese industrial workers.

As they have been largely Muslim since the 10th century it is no surprise that the recent activisation of the more extreme and militant Muslim tendency has taken root among some of their people. This brought them into direct confontation with the Han residents and the authorities.

China has recognised unrest in that region as a major threat to the Chinese state, and has moved in very large military forces to maintain order.

The recent Excesses, camps and other repressive measures are a direct result. Like the USA China does not allow States to break away and has taken every measurs to prevent the Uyghurs from doing so.
However measure taken under the Chinese conception of Human rights, bear little relation to those in the west. hence the present internationl hiatus.

It is highly unlikely indeed that the Chines authotrities will fall into line with western values, as to what is acceptable, in order to bring the Uyghurs into line with Chines law.. Any more than the west will accept the Chinese methods.

it is also unlikely indeeed, that some sort of pingpong match of trade sanctions will bring any sort of agreement between themselves and the west

I can see no way that this deadlock can be resolved any time soon.

While the west is largely turning a blind eye to Turkeys devestation of the Kurds. It is certainly energised poliitically over the plight of the Uyghurs. Perhaps it offers a useful diversion from the political uncertainty in the USA, and the devestation of Covid19.


 
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Very good post Terry, which clearly shows the inconsistencies of our reporting and foreign policy over the years. When the Soviets were in Afghanistan fighting the Mujahideen, they were bad, so the US armed the Mujahideen (now the Taliban) to fight against Russia. The US/UK are supporting Saudi Arabia against Yemen.
I think the way you described the Uyghurs is a bit like the Chechens in Russia. There is a lot of extremism there, and they have attacked prominent targets in Russia and killed hundreds of people - Moscow station, theatre, school etc. It was two Chechens who were responsible for the Boston marathon bombings.
 
Until the recent unrest and crack down I had almost no conception. as to who the Uyghurs were.

While the west is largely turning a blind eye to Turkeys devestation of the Kurds. It is certainly energised poliitically over the plight of the Uyghurs. Perhaps it offers a useful diversion from the political uncertainty in the USA, and the devestation of Covid19.



Agree with all your observations,Terry, bar the last paragraph which is the only one I've included in the Quote because I think so much attention is now focused on the situation of the Uighurs because of the footage of lines of Uighers standing by trains with guards all around. It's a powerful and emotive reminder of what happened to Jews in WW2.





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Agree with all your observations,Terry, bar the last paragraph which is the only one I've included in the Quote because I think so much attention is now focused on the situation of the Uighurs because of the footage of lines of Uighers standing by trains with guards all around. It's a powerful and emotive reminder of what happened to Jews in WW2.

Not sure many people had seen that image, I had not. Nor would it change my opinion of the situation. Emotive. Images can distort the reality..
If that image had been captioned Uyghur recruits embark for training , it would have a whole other connotation.
Neither I suspect conveys the whole truth.
 
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Meanwhile, Trump pardons war criminals and calls them heroes. If we call out other nations, we should first look at ourselves in the mirror. To compare the image, which possibly showed Eighurs in frankly miniscule numbers, to the horrors of the Holocaust is very bad.

 
Meanwhile, Trump pardons war criminals and calls them heroes. If we call out other nations, we should first look at ourselves in the mirror. To compare the image, which possibly showed Eighurs in frankly miniscule numbers, to the horrors of the Holocaust is very bad.


to be 100% honest I think @JohnC6 I think you have raised a very valid and frightening point, the Jewish holocaust was carried out under a cloak of secrecy where we didn't have internet, digital cameras, instant uploads, drones etc. So here we are being shown images pictures of what clearly is a form of genocide. Interesting we have people here poo pooing the images as must be another reason, can't be genocide surely, yeah that also happened in WW2 the non believers and Emu's?
 
to be 100% honest I think @JohnC6 I think you have raised a very valid and frightening point, the Jewish holocaust was carried out under a cloak of secrecy where we didn't have internet, digital cameras, instant uploads, drones etc. So here we are being shown images pictures of what clearly is a form of genocide. Interesting we have people here poo pooing the images as must be another reason, can't be genocide surely, yeah that also happened in WW2 the non believers and Emu's?


A "genocide" is a mass slaughter of people. This is not a "genocide". There were genocides carried out by the Nazis, by the Turks against the Armenians where millions of people were slaughtered.
"Genocide" - mass extermination of a whole group of people.
The Iraqis, helped by the US used chemical weapons to slaughter tens of thousands of Iranian troops and civilians. That was a genocide.
 
A "genocide" is a mass slaughter of people. This is not a "genocide". There were genocides carried out by the Nazis, by the Turks against the Armenians where millions of people were slaughtered.
"Genocide" - mass extermination of a whole group of people.
The Iraqis, helped by the US used chemical weapons to slaughter tens of thousands of Iranian troops and civilians. That was a genocide.

NO you're very wrong, this is the official version....

The United Nations Genocide Convention, which was established in 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such" including the killing of its members, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately imposing living conditions that seek to "bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group
 
Cutting out the Hyperbole and Conjecture...

We know that The Uyghurs are Turkic-speaking Muslims from the Central Asian region.
The largest population live in China's autonomous Xinjiang region, in the country's north-west.
Xinjiang is massive it is China's gateway to Central Asia, with multiple borders to Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan, as well as Mongolia and Russia in the north and Pakistan and India in the south.
This is a Strategic area of extreme importance to China.

We do know there has been riots and fighting between the Uyghurs and local Han Chinese.
We do know that groups of Uyghurs have been moved moved to "Education" centres
We do know that an unknown number have been imprisoned as terrorists
We do know a smaller number have been executed for Terrorism , insurrection and crimes against the state..
we do know Chinese forces have been moved to the region to establish order

"Uyghur activists have pushed for Xinjiang to become a separate country and still call it "East Turkestan."
Over the past decade, the Chinese government has tightened its grip on the region, following incidents of violent ethnic unrest. The turning point came in 2009, when ethnic riots rampaged through Urumqi, the regional capital, killing at least 197 people."



We do know that China is carrying out a Birth control program in the area, including IUD's and sterilisations.

"The evidence suggests that this program aims to sterilize some women with one or two children, and many or all women with three or more children. One Uighur county’s 2019 family planning policy explicitly stated that women with three or more children are to be sterilized. According to the 2010 national census, about 20 percent of all Uighur women across China had three or more children; in some predominantly Uighur prefectures, that share may be as high as 36.1 percent, which might explain Hotan City’s 34.3 percent sterilization target. In addition, in 2019 and 2020 Xinjiang budgeted about 1.5 billion RMB, over $200 million, at the regional level alone for financial rewards for women who supposedly voluntarily opt for IUDs or sterilizations even though they are legally permitted to have a third child".


We do know that America has recently changed its attitude and policy towards China.

"According to an excerpt from John Bolton's forthcoming book published in The Wall Street Journal, Trump told Chinese President Xi Jinping over dinner last year that Xi should "go ahead with building the camps," which Trump thought was "exactly the right thing to do.""
 
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Not sure many people had seen that image, I had not. Nor would it change my opinion of the situation. Emotive. Images can distort the reality..
If that image had been captioned Uyghur recruits embark for training , it would have a whole other connotation.
Neither I suspect conveys the whole truth.

It was recently on main stream news and Andrew Marr showed it to the Chinese Ambassador last Sunday morning.

I've done some checking. It's drone footage from August 2018 and widely circulated on social last year so contrary to your belief,Terry..many people have,infact, seen it..They were Uighers and had their heads shaven and were blindfolded. That doesn't happen with recruits embarking on training as you have suggested as an example to it being misinterpreted. Not suggesting you thought that it was recruits.I understand what you're saying and appreciate you weren't aware that they were blind folded and had their heads shaved so had you known that then you might have responded differently. It seems that they were being taken to a 're-education' camp. I'll see if I can find the interview given by a teacher at a 're-education' camp. who subsequently left China .She was on yesterday's Radio4 Today programme and gave her account through a translator. Her language sounded arabic.

Interview: at 2.21.https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000l0hx

In case you aren't signed up to the BBC..you have to be to listen to BBC Sounds.She said she was taken to the camp to teach. There were 2500 inmates from 13-20 years of age both sexes. A cell was 16m square and held up to 20. They had to lie down on their right side and were not allowed to turn..they couldn't,she added. She saw guards take people from her class for the slightest infringement to a 'dark room' where they were tortured which included pulling out fingernails. She saw that when they were returned to the class. Some didn't return as they had died. Others had dreadful injuries.
 
It was recently on main stream news and Andrew Marr showed it to the Chinese Ambassador last Sunday morning.
I have never doubted that it was broadcast.


I've done some checking. It's drone footage from August 2018 and widely circulated on social last year so contrary to your belief,Terry..many people have,infact, seen it..They were Uighers and had their heads shaven and were blindfolded. That doesn't happen with recruits embarking on training as you have suggested as an example to it being misinterpreted. Not suggesting you thought that it was recruits.I understand what you're saying and appreciate you weren't aware that they were blind folded and had their heads shaved so had you known that then you might have responded differently. It seems that they were being taken to a 're-education' camp. I'll see if I can find the interview given by a teacher at a 're-education' camp. who subsequently left China .She was on yesterday's Radio4 Today programme and gave her account through a translator. Her language sounded arabic.
Interview: at 2.21.https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000l0hx

I said that I did not know how many people had seen that shot. Andrew Marr has only a moderate size audience, so many more people did not see the image than did see it. I was among those that did not.
my point was that a caption can change the connotation of an image especially one where details are not clear to the viewer.

The methods used by the Chines to move moderate sized groups of other wise unconstrained prisoners is standard practice, and used around the world. Blind folds and kept seated on the ground in ordered fashion, greatly reduces the opportunity for escape or overpowering the guards.
Perhaps you would prefer the American practice of using leg irons and chains when transferring prisoners.
Shaven heads is an extremely common practice for prisoners world wide. and prevents lice in crowded conditions.

A photo of new army recruits with their fresh shaven hair cuts out side on an a dawn PT parade, in only shorts and sand shoes, and at full squat,on a winters morning would look no better.

We do not yet know the full extent of what goes on in the re-Education centres, but it seems to be made up of largely youths and young men. I would expect that those who chose not to fully conform are treated fairly brutally until they do. We know that the USA also used torture including waterboarding in their concentration camps in Guantanamo bay. This excuses nothing, except it does show the hypocritical nature of American reports.


In case you aren't signed up to the BBC..you have to be to listen to BBC Sounds.She said she was taken to the camp to teach. There were 2500 inmates from 13-20 years of age both sexes. A cell was 16m square and held up to 20. They had to lie down on their right side and were not allowed to turn..they couldn't,she added. She saw guards take people from her class for the slightest infringement to a 'dark room' where they were tortured which included pulling out fingernails. She saw that when they were returned to the class. Some didn't return as they had died. Others had dreadful injuries.

I have not watched that, If she was a Uyghur herself she was probably speaking a dialect of Turkik, their main language.

However 2500 inmates is a very small number compared to the population of up to 35 million Uyghurs in the region.
Compared to say 2.3millon prisoners incarcerated in American prisons. more than 50,000 of whom can never leave. ( more than one quarter of the worlds prison population)

However dreadful all such situations must be reviewed in context, and compared to world norms.
unfortunately we do not live in an Ideal world. Far worse killing and repression has been going on in Myanmar for many years.
 
NO you're very wrong, this is the official version....

The United Nations Genocide Convention, which was established in 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such" including the killing of its members, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately imposing living conditions that seek to "bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group

There were genocides before the UN was even thought of. The UN description of "genocide" is disputed, because it waters down what a genocide really is - the mass killing of people, particularly one group of people - Armenians by Turks, Jews by Nazis, Congo Africans by Belgium, Cambodians by Pol Pot.
If you wish to describe what China is doing as a genocide, then you would have to include what the US did in Iraq as a genocide and what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.
 
There were genocides before the UN was even thought of. The UN description of "genocide" is disputed, because it waters down what a genocide really is - the mass killing of people, particularly one group of people - Armenians by Turks, Jews by Nazis, Congo Africans by Belgium, Cambodians by Pol Pot.
If you wish to describe what China is doing as a genocide, then you would have to include what the US did in Iraq as a genocide and what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

sorry mate but you are wrong, China is systematically carrying out acts as above which will if they carry them to completion cause the extinction of the Uygher society including but not limited to

  1. Mass Forced Imprisonment
  2. Forced Sterilisation
  3. Forced re-education
  4. Torture and murder
which bit don't you get or do you want to quibble some more?
China are bordering on what the Nazi's geared up to in the years before WW2 and they are getting away with it while keeping us amused with plastic parts and iphones.
 
sorry mate but you are wrong, China is systematically carrying out acts as above which will if they carry them to completion cause the extinction of the Uygher society including but not limited to

  1. Mass Forced Imprisonment
  2. Forced Sterilisation
  3. Forced re-education
  4. Torture and murder
which bit don't you get or do you want to quibble some more?
China are bordering on what the Nazi's geared up to in the years before WW2 and they are getting away with it while keeping us amused with plastic parts and iphones.

The Uyghur population is probably as much as 35 million.

only a tiny fraction of that is involved in these control measures.
I posted a quote in #56 above, about their birth control program, which does include sterilisation of those with three or more children.
There is less clear data about torture and murder, But like many countries including the USA, China has used a degree a degree of torture in its interrogation process.
It could well be doing so in this situation.

Sterilisation has been a standard practice to control the population growth in China for many years. Up until recently the Muslim population of Uyghurs has been growing faster than other regions. I have no doubt at all that they have been targeted to reduce that figure substantially..

Re-education has been tried by many regimes, it is generally not very successful in changing minds. I do not know the success rate of the Chinese, but they have used in in the fight against dissidents for many years. This would suggest their tactics have given them results that lead them to continue with what is an expensive process.
Draconian for certain, however the only alternative way that we have found in the battle with Isis terrorists, is to fight them in a war situation, that has also killed many thousands of civilians.
Both tactics are horrific, so I will let you make up your own mind which you prefer, and which results in the least death and suffering.

There is no comparison between the Nazis and the Chinese.

the Chinese are reacting to a long term terrorist threat, and actual fighting of Muslim militants against the Han Population.
In such a sensitive multi border region, the Chines can not reasonably be expected to let such unrest to continue.

In the Middle east we chose war.. The Chinese have Chosen re-education as the lesser of two evils.
 
The Uyghur population is probably as much as 35 million.

only a tiny fraction of that is involved in these control measures.
I posted a quote in #56 above, about their birth control program, which does include sterilisation of those with three or more children.
There is less clear data about torture and murder, But like many countries including the USA, China has used a degree a degree of torture in its interrogation process.
It could well be doing so in this situation.

Sterilisation has been a standard practice to control the population growth in China for many years. Up until recently the Muslim population of Uyghurs has been growing faster than other regions. I have no doubt at all that they have been targeted to reduce that figure substantially..

Re-education has been tried by many regimes, it is generally not very successful in changing minds. I do not know the success rate of the Chinese, but they have used in in the fight against dissidents for many years. This would suggest their tactics have given them results that lead them to continue with what is an expensive process.
Draconian for certain, however the only alternative way that we have found in the battle with Isis terrorists, is to fight them in a war situation, that has also killed many thousands of civilians.
Both tactics are horrific, so I will let you make up your own mind which you prefer, and which results in the least death and suffering.

There is no comparison between the Nazis and the Chinese.

the Chinese are reacting to a long term terrorist threat, and actual fighting of Muslim militants against the Han Population.
In such a sensitive multi border region, the Chines can not reasonably be expected to let such unrest to continue.

In the Middle east we chose war.. The Chinese have Chosen re-education as the lesser of two evils.
Sorry, but I totally disagree with a lot of what you've posted. China IS guilty of horrific atrocities against its own 'citizens', and this IS comparable to Nazism; the scale is irrelevant, the methods and reasoning behind them are very similar. It's about ethnic cleansing. Eugenics. It's absolutely f*****g abhorrent.

As a Muslim person, I'm sick and tired of people trying to cite 'Islamic Extremism/Terrorism' as a justification/explanation for oppression, brutalisation and murder of innocent people, just because of what religion/culture they identify with. China is no more under any 'threat' of 'terrorism' from 'Islam', than any other nation. The demonisation of Islam is all about Western imperialism and control of resources, end of. With China, it's about ideological power over a strong cultural system. The Uighurs have been oppressed and persecuted for decades ffs. So if they decide to push back, it's 'unrest' from 'militants'? So it's ok for millions to be murdered, displaced, forced into concentration camps, and they shouldn't be expected to resist? Perhaps the UK should have just rolled over and let the German military roll in, yeah? Could have saved a load of bloodshed that way...

Stop being an apologist for a genocidal regime. Start being more objective about things.
 
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Are we going to stop buying American goods. are we disgusted by American forced re-education, shaving heads and imprisonment without trial?

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Yes, what China are allegedly doing is wrong, and they should be widely condemned but let's not take the holier than thou line, because its not like we don't re-educate radical muslims under threat of imprisonment, is it?
 
Who's 'we'?

#NotInMyName

it is almost impossible to say which war started first involving Radical Muslims, as they have been constantly fighting amongst them selves. But at one stage or another the UN the USA and the UK and many of the other European countries chose to fight it out there.
 
it is almost impossible to say which war started first involving Radical Muslims, as they have been constantly fighting amongst them selves. But at one stage or another the UN the USA and the UK and many of the other European countries chose to fight it out there.
And who's been arming all sides in all conflicts, for many decades? Who's arming Saudi Arabia now? How many innocent people are being killed because of conflicts supported and exacerbated by Western economic interests? How much money is being earned in the West, because of the perpetuation of these wars?

But no; let's blame the Muslims...
 
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Sorry, but I totally disagree with a lot of what you've posted. China IS guilty of horrific atrocities against its own 'citizens', and this IS comparable to Nazism; the scale is irrelevant, the methods and reasoning behind them are very similar. It's about ethnic cleansing. Eugenics. It's absolutely f*****g abhorrent.

As a Muslim person, I'm sick and tired of people trying to cite 'Islamic Extremism/Terrorism' as a justification/explanation for oppression, brutalisation and murder of innocent people, just because of what religion/culture they identify with. China is no more under any 'threat' of 'terrorism' from 'Islam', than any other nation. The demonisation of Islam is all about Western imperialism and control of resources, end of. With China, it's about ideological power over a strong cultural system. The Uighurs have been oppressed and persecuted for decades ffs. So if they decide to push back, it's 'unrest' from 'militants'? So it's ok for millions to be murdered, displaced, forced into concentration camps, and they shouldn't be expected to resist? Perhaps the UK should have just rolled over and let the German military roll in, yeah? Could have saved a load of bloodshed that way...

Stop being an apologist for a genocidal regime. Start being more objective about things.

The Uyghurs have been troublesome to the Chines state since pretty much for ever. but the situation was always manageable.
Since the advent of Radical Islam among the Uyghurs, and the the pressure for a breakaway state. China has had to take a much tougher line. What is happening now is a direct result of that radicalisation..

What ever the West or Islam might think China is going to deal with the situation in its own way.

We are not talking about the entire Uyghur population of some 35 million people. The present troubles involve only a few thousand people, the vast majority of Uyghurs are peaceful and in no danger. If China had wanted Genocide it would be done and dusted by now. Killing people is easy, Neutralising terrorists and establishing peace is very difficult indeed.
 
And who's been arming all sides in all conflicts, for many decades? Who's arming Saudi Arabia now? How many innocent people are being killed because of conflicts supported and exacerbated by Western economic interests? How much money is being earned in the West, because of the perpetuation of these wars?

But no; let's blame the Muslims...

the Muslims are Buying arms from every where, including most of Europe, The UK, The USA , Russia Turkey and no doubt China. when there is a demand there will be any number of available suppliers..
In almost every case the west entered the field after the Battles had already started.. the wars have been essentially Muslim on Muslim. the USA and Russia take sides to protect their interests. With out them no other nations would get involved. If Iran and Saudi Arabia lost their wealth and stopped financing the wars they would probably wither away.
 
The Uyghurs have been troublesome to the Chines state since pretty much for ever. but the situation was always manageable.
Since the advent of Radical Islam among the Uyghurs, and the the pressure for a breakaway state. China has had to take a much tougher line. What is happening now is a direct result of that radicalisation..

What ever the West or Islam might think China is going to deal with the situation in its own way.

We are not talking about the entire Uyghur population of some 35 million people. The present troubles involve only a few thousand people, the vast majority of Uyghurs are peaceful and in no danger. If China had wanted Genocide it would be done and dusted by now. Killing people is easy, Neutralising terrorists and establishing peace is very difficult indeed.


troublesome = extermination?
Barnsley is f***ed then huh in your eyes?
 
The Uyghurs have been troublesome to the Chines state since pretty much for ever.
You need to read up on the history of that region. Because that is such a deeply ignorant and offensive statement. Seriously. Imagining saying 'the Irish have been 'troublesome' to the British sonce pretty much forever'. Or, 'the Jews were 'troublesome' to Germany'. Geddit? It's simplistic and ignorant at best.

the Muslims are Buying arms from every where
'The Muslims'. What, all Muslims? Including me?

Again; ignorant and offensive. Again; take the time to learn about the history of the Islamic world. There have been conflicts between rival groups and tribes for ever, same as there has been in Europe. Yet conflict within Europe hasn't ever been framed as 'Christian on Christian'. Don't make the mistake of lumping all Muslims in together; we are as diverse and mixed as any other 'religious' diaspora, indeed, more than most.

Fact is, that factional rivalries have been exploited by external forces, for their own ends. The destabilisation of the entire Middle East region suits Western, Russian and Chinese economic interests. Conflicts between say Iran and Iraq, were fuelled by the West and the Soviet Union, for example, both sides wanting dominance and supremacy there (because oil and natural resources, surprise surprise...). It suits a Western political and ideological narrative, to frame 'Muslims' as the enemy. Read 1984.

And so we are seeing signs of ethnic cleansing in the Uighur region. Which has great natural resources. Surprise surprise...
 
You need to read up on the history of that region. Because that is such a deeply ignorant and offensive statement. Seriously. Imagining saying 'the Irish have been 'troublesome' to the British sonce pretty much forever'. Or, 'the Jews were 'troublesome' to Germany'. Geddit? It's simplistic and ignorant at best.


'The Muslims'. What, all Muslims? Including me?

Again; ignorant and offensive. Again; take the time to learn about the history of the Islamic world. There have been conflicts between rival groups and tribes for ever, same as there has been in Europe. Yet conflict within Europe hasn't ever been framed as 'Christian on Christian'. Don't make the mistake of lumping all Muslims in together; we are as diverse and mixed as any other 'religious' diaspora, indeed, more than most.

Fact is, that factional rivalries have been exploited by external forces, for their own ends. The destabilisation of the entire Middle East region suits Western, Russian and Chinese economic interests. Conflicts between say Iran and Iraq, were fuelled by the West and the Soviet Union, for example, both sides wanting dominance and supremacy there (because oil and natural resources, surprise surprise...). It suits a Western political and ideological narrative, to frame 'Muslims' as the enemy. Read 1984.

And so we are seeing signs of ethnic cleansing in the Uighur region. Which has great natural resources. Surprise surprise...


I have no ability to stop you being offended. if that is your wont.

The History of the region indicates that the Uyghurs have been "Troublesome" since before they became Muslims. In the same way that Afghanistan has always been a "Troubled Nation." and in constant conflict amongst them selves and neighbours.

As to Ireland, I as a person of long Irish heritage, would admit to our being a thorn in the side of those that ruled England since at least Roman times. the recent Irish "Troubles" is only a sub set of that.

As to the use of "Muslims" in my posts about the Uyghurs I have made it abundantly clear that I was talking about dissident Muslims of those intent on forming a breakaway state of East Turkestan. The Uyghurs have shown enmity to the ruling majority Han Chinese for centuries, though it is only recently that it became open hostilities.
The Uyghurs have been mainly Muslim since the 10th century, long before they became fully incorporated in to the Chinese Empire..

I have never lumped all Muslims in together. There are undoubtedly more peaceful groups than extreme militant ones. However it would be reasonable to describe recent conflicts as "Troublesome".
 
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I have no ability to stop you being offended. if that is your wont.
You could bother to pay attention to what others say, read up on actual history (rather than propaganda), have a think about how your words might be interpreted. It's called being a decent, considerate Human Being.

I have made it abundantly clear that I was talking about dissident Muslims
No you haven't.

I have never lumped all Muslims in together.
Yes you did.

There are undoubtedly more peaceful groups than extreme militant ones
Oh there are, are there? Well; who knew? :rolleyes:

You are peddling a narrative that is biased, ignorant and offensive. End of.
 
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