Shoreham Airshow - Hawker Hunter crash :(

Hazza said:
Yes because the CAA regularly check Talk Photography of course. I'm not saying they're not of use to the authorities - Just no need for them to be posted here for people to gawp at.

My opinion, of course, and I'm not going to get drawn into a further argument.
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It's not the CAA investigating this, why would they? They don't investigate air crashes.

It's the AAIB and the police investigating this.
 
Lindsay D said:
I do not believe for a moment that the OP was acting in bad taste by posting his pictures ... (you cannot see people dying, only wreckage and smoke) and they are nothing other than a wide record of a tragic event. To suggest otherwise makes no sense.
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:agree: Bad taste my arse. Hazza, living's a terribly risky business. It always has been, but nowadays most people in the UK are so comfortable that they can ignore that reality ...
 
Hazza said:
Personally i think it is bad taste to post those pictures here. Nobody needs to see over a dozen people dying.

I'd just like to end my post by saying my thoughts are with everyone affected by the weekends tragic events.

Harry.
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I would also disagree with you, if anyone had wandered around taking photos of the dead you might have a point.

Times have changed, and any major incident whether good or bad is going to be seen on the internet.

They used to only be on the front page of the papers and magazines and a segment of the News, but technology now means they are more accessible, none so far have been in bad taste though.
 
Hazza said:
Yes because the CAA regularly check Talk Photography of course. I'm not saying they're not of use to the authorities - Just no need for them to be posted here for people to gawp at.
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Gawp? I've been on this forum enough years to give the people here more credit than that Harry. I believe these photographs were shared with the authorities, the OP has not acted irresponsibly in any way - far from it. Why must we sugarcoat everything in order to protect the fragile sensibilities of the public? I have seen some footage taken immediately after the crash right on the very scene by the first people who arrived - they were filming it because they knew the footage could be helpful to the investigation - they were checking cars to see if they could do anything for any survivors, these were not filmed close-up and when approached the recording device was turned in the other direction in case there were any people still in the vehicles. Culturally I feel that we as a nation observe the highest standards of decency and should be commended for that, not subjected to misplaced reprimands.
 
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I've emailed the AAIB with a link to these and offered the originals if they think they'll help but since the majority of my shots were after the fact then I'm not sure how helpful they'll be.
 
Lindsay D said:
Gawp? I've been on this forum enough years to give the people here more credit than that Harry. I believe these photographs were shared with the authorities, the OP has not acted irresponsibly in any way - far from it. Why must we sugarcoat everything in order to protect the fragile sensibilities of the public? I have seen some footage taken immediately after the crash right on the very scene by the first people who arrived - they were filming it because they knew the footage could be helpful to the investigation - they were checking cars to see if they could do anything for any survivors, these were not filmed close-up and when approached the recording device was turned in the other direction in case there were any people still in the vehicles. Culturally I feel that we as a nation observe the highest standards of decency and should be commended for that, not subjected to misplaced reprimands.
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I'm not saying that they shouldn't be taken, of course they are of use (to the AAIB & Police ;) ) but why post them here, for critique? Maybe some more clarity would improve the fireball.

End of the day, what I'm trying to say is if it was your family that was killed on Saturday would you want to see pictures of it everywhere? Thought not.

On a side note, it's not just members that can view this forum. This thread has over 2000 views.
 
Hazza said:
End of the day, what I'm trying to say is if it was your family that was killed on Saturday would you want to see pictures of it everywhere? Thought not.

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If my family had been involved I would fully understand that there would be a lot of photographs taken by a lot of people, and that those photographs would be widely published. And where those photographs are simply incident records containing no recognisable casualties it is inconceivable that I would take offence.
 
Lindsay D said:
The CAA is certainly the whipping boy at the moment. It seems they can make decisions without awaiting AAIB recommendations.
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...but still, nothing to do with the investigation, nor can they interfere.

They can do what they like regulation wise.
 
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Thanks for sharing you're photos, I was there in the crowd in the disabled area which isn't far from that junction. I will post my photos in a separate thread but that was probably the most horrific thing I have witnessed in my life.
My thoughts are with all that were involved, the event organisers and emergency services cannot be praised highly enough, they were there in quick time and the sights they must of had to deal with must be horrific.
 
It is bad taste. By all means post the ones of it in the air and send the crash ones to the authorities but don't post them here because you want critique. As has been mentioned there is no getting away from the images of the crash in the media and the wild speculation from missinformed people, but the actual crash photos don't need to be posted here.
 
stevie borowik said:
It is bad taste. By all means post the ones of it in the air and send the crash ones to the authorities but don't post them here because you want critique. As has been mentioned there is no getting away from the images of the crash in the media and the wild speculation from missinformed people, but the actual crash photos don't need to be posted here.
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I don't think the OP has asked for critique (and he certainly didn't get any, good grief) - I think he just put them in this bit of the forum because it seemed relevant. Since there were already many similar photos in wide circulation it would make no material difference putting them here and I think the aim was to stimulate a general discussion about the event - it seems he was not the only forum member who was there. I fail to see how posting those pictures has done any harm.
 
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Please everyone stop arguing, the incident was bad enough without all the speculation that is now going on, let alone the disagreements.
 
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I think you need to give he OP a break, I don't believe for a second he was looking for crit! Where else was he going to post them?
 
Lindsay D said:
I don't think the OP has asked for critique (and he certainly didn't get any, good grief) - I think he just put them in this bit of the forum because it seemed relevant. Since there were already many similar photos in wide circulation it would make no material difference putting them here and I think the aim was to stimulate a general discussion about the event - it seems he was not the only forum member who was there. I fail to see how posting those pictures has done any harm.
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The problem with general disscussion is that they don't know the facts no one does yet so that makes this pointless. Would you want people to post photos of a fatal motorsport crash and use the same arguement?
 
mr.si said:
Please stop arguing, the incident was bad enough without all the speculation that is now going on, let alone the disagreements.
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There is nothing wrong with healthy discussion even when that includes disagreement - that is the point of a forum. The opinions being exchanged here are all useful and valid, even if we don't always agree with them. I have not seen any insults or anything unpleasant being said.

I'm afraid speculation is inevitable, however the cause of the crash is not really being discussed here. Perhaps if you had been there or had been involved in some way (and I have no idea if you were or not) you would feel more connected to the event and therefore more likely to want to talk about it, for a whole host of reasons.
 
stevie borowik said:
The problem with general disscussion is that they don't know the facts no one does yet so that makes this pointless. Would you want people to post photos of a fatal motorsport crash and use the same arguement?
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We do know some of the facts - especially those who witnessed it. We do have access to the facts about other airshow accidents, and statistics which can be discussed in relevance to possible new guidelines regarding airshows in this country. People are entirely able to assume a position on that. What we don't know is what happened in the moments before the collision which caused the final position of the aircraft when it hit the ground, and we are not talking about that because as you say it is pointless and we need to wait for an official enquiry. Expecting people to simply shut up when a significant event (of any kind) has occurred is completely unrealistic.
 
Saturday was my 3rd Shoreham air show, and it has taken me until today to start to go through my pictures as really didn't feel like it. When the Hunter crashed a personally put my camera down and for me it felt the correct thing to do.

I understand why the CAA have done what they have done, but feel that we must all wait to see what the investigation finds before making changes to future jet displays at airshows. Some of the press and puplic comments beggar belief though, I'm no expert so let them do their job first, knee jerk reactions does not help anyone.

I would like to comment that the vast majority of the crowd conducted them self properly and had the patience to wait for the information to announced over the tannoy system, and the Shoreham staff I felt handled the situation well in the circumstances.

I hope that in the future the pastime that so many of us enjoy is not tamed to such a degree that we might as well just look at these beautiful aircraft in a museum.
 
Lindsay D said:
Perhaps if you had been there or had been involved in some way (and I have no idea if you were or not) you would feel more connected to the event and therefore more likely to want to talk about it, for a whole host of reasons.
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It happened 5 mins from my house. I cycle past that point every day and work in an office almost directly opposite the terminal building. I went on holiday to North Yorkshire at 4am that day so found out about it at about 3pm, but I would have otherwise been watching from the park by my house which has great air show viewing points.

Sadly I feel very connected.

Plus Phal is an ex colleague of mine.

I agree about healthy discussion it just seemed to be getting heated. (To me).
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
If you don't like the photos that have been posted, and don't agree with them being posted, why frequent the thread?
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Originally to offer my views on the new CAA ruling and also my opinion on how the media have handled this, but now because of one of many petit arguments on this forum, which it seems renowned for.

admirable said:
I think you need to give he OP a break, I don't believe for a second he was looking for crit! Where else was he going to post them?
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Nowhere. There is absolutely no need to post them anywhere. You can start a discussion without posting a photo of an accident which claimed the lives of at least 11 people.

Lindsay D said:
..... because the photos aren't horrific, even if the event was. That's the difference.
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Seriously? A picture of an aircraft that has become a fireball smashing through a busy dual carriageway is not horrific? I had originally changed that post to reflect that the other thread contains no images of the actual crash, as we posted at the same time, but your comment is so crass it's unbelievable.
 
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mr.si said:
It happened 5 mins from my house. I cycle past that point every day and work in an office almost directly opposite the terminal building. I went on holiday to North Yorkshire at 4am that day so found out about it at about 3pm, but I would have otherwise been watching from the park by my house which has great air show viewing points.

Sadly I feel very connected.

Plus Phal is an ex colleague of mine.

I agree about healthy discussion it just seemed to be getting heated. (To me).
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Sorry to hear that you live so close to the site Simon. I know how you feel, I am not far away and we have always gone to the show each year. When the Hurricane crashed in 2007 it was the most horrible feeling, you feel as if you don't want to go to another airshow and then you realise how important it is that you should support the worthy causes who depend on the revenue, and we will continue to support the show for as long as it exists. I'm glad you didn't see the crash, not that that will help much. I hope nobody you knew was directly involved.
 
Hazza said:
Nowhere. There is absolutely no need to post them anywhere. You can start a discussion without posting a photo of an accident which claimed the lives of at least 11 people.
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Erm, this is a photography forum. Regardless of the subject matter these images are of interest to photographers.
 
Hazza said:
Nowhere. There is absolutely no need to post them anywhere. You can start a discussion without posting a photo of an accident which claimed the lives of at least 11 people.
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Phal lives in Shoreham. You live in Peterborough.

No matter how strong or weak your connection to the aviation community, I would back his decision and judgement about posting the images over yours any day of the week.

This catastrophe landed in his backyard. Quite literally.
 
Hazza said:
Seriously? A picture of an aircraft that has become a fireball smashing through a busy dual carriageway is not horrific? I had originally changed that post to reflect that the other thread contains no images of the actual crash, as we posted at the same time, but your comment is so crass it's unbelievable.
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Please - look at the OP's photographs again. They show the initial fireball and then wide parts of the scene afterwards with the burned areas - no details at all of any people involved, just a basic record of an accident site. That is what I meant by the photographs not reflecting the full horror of the event. Were you there? Do you know what it sounded like - have you heard the sickening thud of a plane hitting the ground? In case you haven't, I can tell you that is pretty horrific, and it does NOT compare to the OP's photos - and your application of the word 'crass' is wildly misplaced and frankly insulting.
 
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admirable said:
Erm, this is a photography forum. Regardless of the subject matter these images are of interest to photographers.
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No s***, but what do people gain from seeing this?

Why are they of interest to photographers, to see what settings to use for an aeroplane crash? Or just to see a crash that looks like something out of a hollywood blockbuster but in fact left the pilot critically ill in hospital and bystanders dead.

Surprising enough I too am a photographer, who mainly does aviation (and the people involved, too ;) ), and I have no interest at all in seeing these pictures.

DemiLion said:
No matter how strong or weak your connection to the aviation community.
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Quite strong, thank you. Perhaps why my opinion is what it is.

I think that is where I will retreat to. I have noticed on both (EDIT, actually 3) aviation forums I frequent, they have managed to refrain from posting pictures of the crash.

Lindsay D said:
Were you there? Do you know what it sounded like - have you heard the sickening thud of a plane hitting the ground? In case you haven't, I can tell you that is pretty horrific, and it does NOT compare to the OP's photos - and your application of the word 'crass' is wildly misplaced and frankly insulting.
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No followed by yes. I had the decency to put my camera down though.

Anyway, I've argued enough and I really can't be bothered anymore.
 
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Hazza said:
Quite strong, thank you. Perhaps why my opinion is what it is.
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Has it completely escaped your notice that:

a) Three of the people arguing for the images are actually all based around the site of the incident?

b) Almost 100% of the casualties (with the exception of the pilot) will be locals and have very little to do with the airshow?

Seriously, as a member of the aviation fraternity, what you are doing here is not trying to be respectful. On the contrary, you are pouring water onto an oil fire.
 
Hazza said:
No followed by yes. I had the decency to put my camera down though.
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I think the people who took photos did so because they felt their pictures might have been useful to investigators - and many of them were. It's awful to accuse those people of indecency, I'm sure nobody would be ghoulish enough to take photographs of people suffering or any images where the victims can be seen. I think the photos which have been published have been taken outside of the showground, I am always on the inside so there would have been no usefulness to any of my pictures (if I had any) but photos of the moments before could be of value to investigators. That's why they can be worth taking - perhaps all these photos and pieces of footage can help to give the families concerned some answers.
 
Hazza said:
I have no interest at all in seeing these pictures.
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So don't look at them - problem solved

On the wider point - how is documenting this kind of event different from documenting a warzone, or natural disaster ? - should people never take documentary photos in case they offend someone ?
 
Lindsay D said:
I hope that isn't the case Peter - that would not be acceptable on this forum.
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I don't see how these are any different, just because you cannot see the gorey details.

DemiLion said:
Has it completely escaped your notice that:

a) Three of the people arguing for the images are actually all based around the site of the incident?

b) Almost 100% of the casualties (with the exception of the pilot) will be locals and have very little to do with the airshow?

Seriously, as a member of the aviation fraternity, what you are doing here is not trying to be respectful. On the contrary, you are pouring water onto an oil fire.
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So on that logic, if it had landed in my back garden I'd want to see pictures.

At the end of the day it's my opinion, we're all entitled to one after all. To be honest, I'm fed up with the forum and it's petit arguments & you're probably right, I'm not doing any good here so I'll shut up and stop posting. Enjoy the crash photos :)
 
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Lindsay D said:
I hope that isn't the case Peter - that would not be acceptable on this forum.
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I doubt anyone here has, but the more prurient gutter press are happy to buy and print victim close ups - look at the 7/7 coverage for example
 
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