Shoreham Airshow - Hawker Hunter crash :(

3 pages 115 posts and as usual the people of TP turn it into an argument.. should be ashamed of yourselves..
just because this is TP doesn't mean everything is about photography. plenty of threads are non photography related yet this is the only forum of several I'm on where people will turn absolutely anything into an argument and the admins sit back and do nothing as usual... disgusted with the attitudes of people here. no respect and nothing better to do than start an argument.
people need to go take a good long look in the mirror at themselves. this place has become a cesspit of negative crap day in day out.
 
Hazza said:
At the end of the day it's my opinion, we're all entitled to one after all.
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Indeed - and "All" covers both you and those that disagree with you - I respect your right to think that crash pictures shouldn't be posted, but you don't appear to respect my right to think they should .. thats not a firm moral high ground to preach from i'm afraid
 
dean messenger said:
3 pages 115 posts and as usual the people of TP turn it into an argument.. should be ashamed of yourselves..
just because this is TP doesn't mean everything is about photography. plenty of threads are non photography related yet this is the only forum of several I'm on where people will turn absolutely anything into an argument and the admins sit back and do nothing as usual... disgusted with the attitudes of people here. no respect and nothing better to do than start an argument.
people need to go take a good long look in the mirror at themselves. this place has become a cesspit of negative crap day in day out.
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FWIW I agree with this as someone doing the arguing. I normally try to avoid it but I do feel strongly about this.

I'm sorry for cluttering the thread and would just like to reiterate the last line of my first post that my thoughts are with those affected by the accident.

Over and out.
 
I think it was a very moving tribute to the victims that the Vulcan flew past the crash site this morning.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
I think it was a very moving tribute to the victims that the Vulcan flew past the crash site this morning.
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I would imagine that there will have been mixed feelings about that.
 
This has hit me hard like many people and so close to where I grew up too. On that sad day many photos and videos were taken of the accident. I just wish people wouldn't post them all over social media and forums. I think as a mark of respect all photos should be removed and just given to the authority to help with their investigation.
 
Now there appears to be a real kneejerk from the media. both the mirror and the sun commenting about airshows over land and banning vintage jets

we should remember that in fact they have an excellent safety record regarding spectators and the public. Would we close all motorways given "numerous fatal crashes occur"

four years ago, one of the Red Arrows crashed at Bournemouth - well, approaching Christchurch airport - the pilot did not survive, but the reds still fly today

In I Tried to run a Railway Gereard Feinnes commented that he knew of only one situation of absolute safety - the rugby song about the hedgehog.

condolences to all that have suffered loss as a result
 
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kennethwfd said:
Now there appears to be a real kneejerk from the media. both the mirror and the sun commenting about airshows over land and banning vintage jets

we should remember that in fact they have an excellent safety record regarding spectators and the public. Would we close all motorways given numerous fatal crashes occur

four years ago, one of the Red Arrows crashed at Bournemouth - well, approaching Christchurch airport - the pilot did not survive, but the reds still fly today

In I Tried to run a Railway Gereard Feinnes commented that he knew of only one situation of absolute safety - the rugby song about the hedgehog.

condolences to all that have suffered loss as a result
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I knew this knee jerk reaction would come to the fore, it always does. Then when the result of the investigation finally becomes public they'll forget blaming the event and focus on that instead.

Incidentally, motorways are the safest roads to drive on, comparatively very few fatals actually occur on them.
 
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What I find upsetting is the manner in which some commentators (we have heard it directly at this end and some of it is unbelievable) are making spurious and frankly inaccurate comments about the pilot and his abilities - that kind of thing is well out of order - gossip at its worst, with no real thought to the fact that the guy is currently fighting for his life. The ignorance out there is worrying - people thinking that just about anyone with a basic pilot's licence can rock up to an event and hop into the cockpit. Aside from the relatives of the existing victims, I feel very sorry for the pilot's family right now.
 
Lindsay D said:
What I find upsetting is the manner in which some commentators (we have heard it directly at this end and some of it is unbelievable) are making spurious and frankly inaccurate comments about the pilot and his abilities - that kind of thing is well out of order - gossip at its worst, with no real thought to the fact that the guy is currently fighting for his life. The ignorance out there is worrying - people thinking that just about anyone with a basic pilot's licence can rock up to an event and hop into the cockpit. Aside from the relatives of the existing victims, I feel very sorry for the pilot's family right now.
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Agreed, The Mail had a very distasteful article today about the pilot, with an opinion (and I stress opinion) from a retired RAF instructor slating the pilots actions. Talk about premature. And he's commentating from his armchair, away from any hard facts or data, and no doubt was miles away from Shoreham when this happened.

They actually published this comment from this so called expert -

"He said: ‘This is a terrible thing to say, but when you look at a guy who is a British Airways captain, has got long hair and wears a cap like that, you get the feeling that he's a glamour puss rather than a professional pilot."

Talk about pre judging someone. As far as I'm concerned this idiot commentator lost any credibility he might have commanded as soon as I read that.
 
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That is shocking Jim - and utterly distasteful. I wonder if it falls within the realms of slander/defamation given that there has to be an official investigation.

If the pilot did make a mistake then just imagine how terrible it will be for him (if he survives) to have to live with the memories of what happened - surely that is punishment enough for anyone.
 
odd jim said:
I knew this knee jerk reaction would come to the fore, it always does. Then when the result of the investigation finally becomes public they'll forget blaming the event and focus on that instead.

Incidentally, motorways are the safest roads to drive on, comparatively very few fatals actually occur on them.
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I've edited pervious post. the same can be said regarding railways
 
It is terrible that people are pointing the finger when an investigation is under way and no facts have come out yet. Could be several reasons why the accident happened. RIP all those that lost their lives and a speedy recovery to all injured incl the pilot.
 
Lindsay D said:
That is shocking Jim - and utterly distasteful. I wonder if it falls within the realms of slander/defamation given that there has to be an official investigation.

If the pilot did make a mistake then just imagine how terrible it will be for him (if he survives) to have to live with the memories of what happened - surely that is punishment enough for anyone.
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I think it probably does, and if I was a family member of the pilot I'd already be thinking along the lines of defamation of character.
 
odd jim said:
I think it probably does, and if I was a family member of the pilot I'd already be thinking along the lines of defamation of character.
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Tbh If the pilot was a family member I'd have larger concerns right now ... it is pathetic though, I mean Pilot error is always a possibility along with mechanical failure, bad fuel, or random bad luck/acts of god but don't know means don't know and the papers should know better

Unfortunately the way that's phrased isn't libel however distasteful as anyone can get a feeling about anyone - he hasn't stated it as a fact... equally if i wrote in response that when you read stuff like that I get the feeling that the author may be a bit of an oaf who may enjoy sexual congress with goats , that isn't libelous either ;)
 
Lindsay D said:
What I find upsetting is the manner in which some commentators (we have heard it directly at this end and some of it is unbelievable) are making spurious and frankly inaccurate comments about the pilot and his abilities - that kind of thing is well out of order - gossip at its worst, with no real thought to the fact that the guy is currently fighting for his life. The ignorance out there is worrying - people thinking that just about anyone with a basic pilot's licence can rock up to an event and hop into the cockpit. Aside from the relatives of the existing victims, I feel very sorry for the pilot's family right now.
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Agreed, and I think I even read it on this forum that someone said "looping the loop" was a fairly simple manoeuvre !
 
big soft moose said:
Tbh If the pilot was a family member I'd have larger concerns right now ... it is pathetic though, I mean Pilot error is always a possibility along with mechanical failure, bad fuel, or random bad luck/acts of god but don't know means don't know and the papers should know better

Unfortunately the way that's phrased isn't libel however distasteful as anyone can get a feeling about anyone - he hasn't stated it as a fact... equally if i wrote in response that when you read stuff like that I get the feeling that the author may be a bit of an oaf who may enjoy sexual congress with goats , that isn't libelous either ;)
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Of course, hopefully they haven't even read it. But this is the last thing he / they need right now whilst he's fighting for his life, and might not even make it. Poor guy might not even have the chance to defend himself from these comments :(
 
odd jim said:
Agreed, The Mail had a very distasteful article today about the pilot, with an opinion (and I stress opinion) from a retired RAF instructor slating the pilots actions. Talk about premature. And he's commentating from his armchair, away from any hard facts or data, and no doubt was miles away from Shoreham when this happened.

They actually published this comment from this so called expert -

"He said: ‘This is a terrible thing to say, but when you look at a guy who is a British Airways captain, has got long hair and wears a cap like that, you get the feeling that he's a glamour puss rather than a professional pilot."

Talk about pre judging someone. As far as I'm concerned this idiot commentator lost any credibility he might have commanded as soon as I read that.
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Daily Mail - say no more. If it's not the Times or Telegraph then it's not not worth reading in my opinion.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Agreed, and I think I even read it on this forum that someone said "looping the loop" was a fairly simple manoeuvre !
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Well it is on an Xbox so it must be the same in real life :rolleyes:
 
I've always been confused about the libel laws - I spoke to a lawyer once and if my memory serves me correctly he said that you can get away with saying pretty much anything if it is a private informal comment on a chat room, social media, your own blog, or forum, but if you make a comment actually in a press article or interview then that is different and you have to be very careful what you say.
 
:(Just an awesome set of photos. Technically excellent, and am sure will be so useful for the investigators.

Just on of the reasons I almost always carry a camera though most of the time it stays put in the bag.

Despite this awful accident, congrats on being on the ball so to speak.

As has been said, my thoughts are with the deceased and their families.

Mj
 
There's an awful lot of you making assumptions and I'm willing to be that none of you (including Jim) have read the full article.

Firstly it's online rather than in print.

Secondly, the article is balanced in that both sides of the case/story are told - each taking up about 50% of the article.
The pilot's defence is put across by a friend who's also a pilot.

It's also worth noting that Hatcher''s comments were first published by the Times and that the Mail had a 1/4 page article in print today by one of the Hawker Hunter's copilots defending him.

Amazing what you can be made to believe by a line taken out of it's context
 
Lindsay D said:
I've always been confused about the libel laws - I spoke to a lawyer once and if my memory serves me correctly he said that you can get away with saying pretty much anything if it is a private informal comment on a chat room, social media, your own blog, or forum, but if you make a comment actually in a press article or interview then that is different and you have to be very careful what you say.
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The law has changed significantly since 2013.

That aside, if what you are stating is 'honest held opinion' you can say whatever you like, as long as the opinion is not portrayed as a statement of fact.
 
DemiLion said:
There's an awful lot of you making assumptions and I'm willing to be that none of you (including Jim) have read the full article.

Firstly it's online rather than in print.

Secondly, the article is balanced in that both sides of the case/story are told - each taking up about 50% of the article.
The pilot's defence is put across by a friend who's also a pilot.

It's also worth noting that Hatcher''s comments were first published by the Times and that the Mail had a 1/4 page article in print today by one of the Hawker Hunter's copilots defending him.

Amazing what you can be made to believe by a line taken out of it's context
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No I did read the full article, it was 2/3 about the criticism of the pilot by Lesile Hatcher, even putting the quote I quoted in big bold letters in its own text box further down in the article. They have in fairness now updated it and also boldly quoted some defence which is good to see. However, the article and headline is still balanced towards critisism - why quote hatcher in the headline, using the words "lunatic" and lead the article with him and not the supportive comments? But I guess that sells papers / creates internet traffic.

However, my point was a) the comments from Leslie Hatcher were very ill judged, ill informed and premature, my main issue, and, b) more subjectively, the press have a responsibility here, and should they be publishing such ill informed and clearly prejudiced comments, at least at this early stage?
 
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I suppose the question to be asked is when is the next "old aircraft" going to fall out of the sky

and

what is the likelihood of this happening when looking back at hours flown/accidents by such compared with a modern aircraft

In my view the numbers killed versus the "stunt" and where it was allowed to take place is no longer acceptable in the crowded South East of the UK, or anywhere else that there is a danger to the public.

The death of 10 plus people can never be worth the manoeuvre that was undertaken and some would say that it is not responsible for it to have been allowed in that place.

wise after the event maybe, but it should never be allowed to happen again

Just my views
 
They could just display these old aircraft on the ground so people can walk around them. But put great big foam rubber protectors on the ends of all the sharp pointy bits like the wing tips. So people don't cut themselves.
 
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Best confine everyone to their own homes in case a vintage aircraft should fall on them, I mean....it happens every day doesnt it?
Please dont take a bath though because as many people die in accidental drownings in the bath in one year in the UK as have died as spectators or passers by at airshows in the UK in the last 60 yrs.
Oh and get rid of that car too, I mean....since the Shoreham accident 20 people in the UK have been killed in road accidents another five will die today, tomorrow, the next day etc.
Of course these vintage jets are valuable cherished equipment which in most cases are serviced/ maintained and operated in such a way that they are at least as safe as when they were first introduced into service. No military jet will have exceeded anywhere near the number of fatigue hours that the airliner taking you on holiday has.
Lets get this in context, its an absolute tradgedy and all operating and safety issues need to be reviewed and amended to reduce risk but to ban airshows or reduce them to flypasts would be as daft as to ban unnecessary car journeys, or flights by Police Helicopters (Glasgow) or to ban attendance at Football matches (Hundreds killed at those).
Just saying.
 
BillN_33 said:
I suppose the question to be asked is when is the next "old aircraft" going to fall out of the sky

and

what is the likelihood of this happening when looking back at hours flown/accidents by such compared with a modern aircraft

In my view the numbers killed versus the "stunt" and where it was allowed to take place is no longer acceptable in the crowded South East of the UK, or anywhere else that there is a danger to the public.

The death of 10 plus people can never be worth the manoeuvre that was undertaken and some would say that it is not responsible for it to have been allowed in that place.

wise after the event maybe, but it should never be allowed to happen again

Just my views
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The risks will always outweigh the benefits in this situation. The same for any entertainment with inherent risks, be it air displays, Motorsport etc etc.
 
ianp5a said:
They could just display these old aircraft on the ground so people can walk around them. But put great big foam rubber protectors on the ends of all the sharp pointy bits like the wing tips. So people don't cut themselves.
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Those comments are just as silly as they are irresponsible ......as are the ones above, in post #150 ....... views like these just verge on being cavalier and are not in any way constr

This aircraft crashed into and killed innocent people, they did not bump into anything, they did not cause the accident - it was a fault of the aircraft or pilot

to compare it with car journeys, as Graham has done is an insult to the families who have lost their loved ones - that is just another insensitive comment

The people who were killed and injured were not responsible for what happened to them

I would not be surprised if legal action was taken against the airshow or owner of the aircraft ...... I am not at all against air shows and I did not say that they should be banned, as you have implied and stated, but in my view this was a irresponsible act being so near a public road which could have been avoided with better thought and planning ......... read what I said not what you want to here

(and before you mention commercial flights over highly populated public spaces, I am flying to Tokyo tomorrow and I would be extremely surprised if the aircraft is 50 years old and performs aerial acrobatics during the flight ........ the flight is also necessary and not one performed for fun or to entertain)
 
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"Could have been avoided with better thought and planning" Bill, the invistigation has hardly started, nobody yet knows what the reasons were behind the accident. The gutter press have already decided as they do and many have made their minds up.
I will await the outcome of the enquiry before I suggest banning anything or stopping air displays near roads
 
Simplythebeast said:
"Could have been avoided with better thought and planning" Bill, the invistigation has hardly started, nobody yet knows what the reasons were behind the accident. The gutter press have already decided as they do and many have made their minds up.
I will await the outcome of the enquiry before I suggest banning anything or stopping air displays near roads
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The aircraft crashed onto a very busy public road - that could have been foreseen - by the "experts" ...........

I did not suggest banning air shows
 
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This is easy.

Press are scum, always and actually no more than kids who gossip, that includes the bloody BBC
Also these muppets who they get comments from, they only comment 1. To further their own career/publicity 2. Get pushed in what to say.
 
[QUOTE="BillN_33, post: 7012312, member: 69188the flight is also necessary and not one performed for fun or to entertain)[/QUOTE]

Only neccessary for the people on board, not life and death.
 
BillN_33 said:
Those comments are just as silly as they are irresponsible ......as are the ones above, in post #150 ....... views like these just verge on being cavalier and are not in any way constr

This aircraft crashed into and killed innocent people, they did not bump into anything, they did not cause the accident - it was a fault of the aircraft or pilot

to compare it with car journeys, as Graham has done is an insult to the families who have lost their loved ones - that is just another insensitive comment

The people who were killed and injured were not responsible for what happened to them

I would not be surprised if legal action was taken against the airshow or owner of the aircraft ...... I am not at all against air shows and I did not say that they should be banned, as you have implied and stated, but in my view this was a irresponsible act being so near a public road which could have been avoided with better thought and planning ......... read what I said not what you want to here

(and before you mention commercial flights over highly populated public spaces, I am flying to Tokyo tomorrow and I would be extremely surprised if the aircraft is 50 years old and performs aerial acrobatics during the flight ........ the flight is also necessary and not one performed for fun or to entertain)
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The fact that this has never happened before in 70 odd years means that it was not an irresponsible act. What about heathrow, planes crossing the m25 and m4 every 30 secs... Move heathrow?

As to fault, things can be accidents. What about bird strike? The overreaction if the press is appalling.

What if a guy is taking pics in a park with a long lens and then abuses a child? Ban people from the park in case of abuse??
 
Bill... I dont know if you have noticed but to get to any airfield you need to use a public road, all airfields have public roads near them. Some much busier than others. No display aircraft in the UK has crashed onto a public road causing casualties in all the years these events have been held.
The chances of that aircraft crashing onto that road were minute. Risk assessment is carried out on the basis of probability/effect, in this case it failed.

The M25 passes across the threshold of the runways at Heathrow and everyone knows that the most likely time for an air accident involving a civil airliner is on take off or landing. So when the inevitable happens who will be shouting about allowing a busy airport in such a location?
 
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