Suspended sentences!

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#2
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-48584227

I've thought a while before using this word and I never normally use it in this context but how 'sick' is someone who gives live fox cubs to hounds?

Dave
I saw this mentioned on the news last night but did not hear mention of the court decision. Just what sort of message does the sentence send to the wider circle involved let alone these perpetrators :(

PS sick, yes but I surmise not in any way that treatment would ever change the core reason they did what they did!
 
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#3
Just what sort of message does the sentence send to the wider circle involved let alone these perpetrators
The message is that if you're part of the "right" group the judiciary will bend over backwards to look after you.
 
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#4
This is the bit that amazed me:
A fifth defendant ... was cleared of all charges. [He] took foxes to kennels but was found not guilty after the judge accepted he believed they would be relocated in the wild.
He thought they would be relocated in the wild? Really? And the judge believed him? Goodness.
 
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#5
This is the bit that amazed me:


He thought they would be relocated in the wild? Really? And the judge believed him? Goodness.
Yes, I read that and thought "it beggars belief...." that the accused would a) think that would happen, by taking them to the hunt kennel & b) that the judge found such a reasoning plausible!!!!!
 
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#8
Since the hunting with dogs ban has been in place I'm not aware of a significant rise in fox population or damage caused by any such increase.
So is it that fox's aren't the villains of the countryside the hunters would have us believe...or have they just ignored the law and carried on hunting regardless?
 
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#9
Since the hunting with dogs ban has been in place I'm not aware of a significant rise in fox population or damage caused by any such increase.
So is it that fox's aren't the villains of the countryside the hunters would have us believe...or have they just ignored the law and carried on hunting regardless?
Yes, I seem to recall at the time the ban was proposed the hunting lobby saying fox hunting was necessary to control the fox numbers.

As hunting with dogs is illegal why is there any reason for hounds to come into contact with foxes at all, including this appalling action, unless, as you say, some are just going to ignore the law and carry on anyway.

Dave
 
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Cobra

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#10
Since the hunting with dogs ban has been in place I'm not aware of a significant rise in fox population or damage caused by any such increase.
So is it that fox's aren't the villains of the countryside the hunters would have us believe...or have they just ignored the law and carried on hunting regardless?
You decide...
Quite a few of my "professional" acquaintances are involved in wildlife management.
They go out most evenings and shoot half a dozen foxes, some in urban environments too ( legal and licenced) where foxes have built dens under sheds, or in rockery banks.
From there they go hunting for food, pet rabbits pet guinea pigs ( a meal in a box, they soon tear the front off the cages)
The "Urban farmers" with their chicken coops these, soon get decimated as well.

They are very well paid, so I guess they were more than happy with the "Ban" ;)
 
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#12
I was once part of an investigation by the police ( not against me) but one of the questions the police asked was has there been any cruelty to the animals as this is an indication that the person could be extremely dangerous, says it all really ! The sentence as usual is a joke as pointed out by Andrew if your of the right group your nearly untouchable.
 
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#14
What ban?
Fox hunting with hounds wasn't banned, it was just restricted.
In my experience the police do nothing to police the current legislation, although they do sometimes attend meets, probably to minimise the violence between hunt sabs and the kennel staff, followers etc.

I must say that it's nice to see the beautifully turned out horses galloping and thoroughly enjoying themselves, but I doubt whether anyone who knows anything about the subject actually believes that the hunt has anything to do with controlling fox numbers - that's down to skilled shooters with .223 rifles, hounds can only catch the cubs and the infirm foxes.

Fox hunting is, and always has been, a class thing, and very few people who live in the country dare to speak out against it.
 
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#16
What! Wheres the hang-em and flog-em brigade? No one blaming the parents or benefit scroungers? Come on, we can do better than that.
 
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#17
You decide...
Quite a few of my "professional" acquaintances are involved in wildlife management.
They go out most evenings and shoot half a dozen foxes, some in urban environments too ( legal and licenced) where foxes have built dens under sheds, or in rockery banks.
From there they go hunting for food, pet rabbits pet guinea pigs ( a meal in a box, they soon tear the front off the cages)
The "Urban farmers" with their chicken coops these, soon get decimated as well.

They are very well paid, so I guess they were more than happy with the "Ban" ;)
I'm happy to concede to your superior knowledge (I know this is your line of business). I have no problem with them being dealt with by professionals.
I'm less forgiving of those who chase and tear them apart for fun.
 
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#18
It is interesting that Dogs have to be taught to kill foxes. It does not come naturally to them.
Perhaps dogs can be taught to hunt and Kill huntsmen. That would be real sport.
 
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#19
Perhaps dogs can be taught to hunt and Kill huntsmen. That would be real sport.
In the spirit of Robin Hood we could have huntsmen hunting with bows and arrows! :LOL:
 
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#20
This is the bit that amazed me:


He thought they would be relocated in the wild? Really? And the judge believed him? Goodness.
Well, I wasn't in court and didn't hear the story but . . .
Given the repeated reports that some hunts breed foxes that are then released into the wild so that that the hunt can chase them, it's possible that this was the defence that was advanced and that this was what was believed.
In the spirit of Robin Hood we could have huntsmen hunting with bows and arrows! :LOL:
Interesting thought, but that would be illegal, and huntsmen tend to act within the law.
 
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#21
It is interesting that Dogs have to be taught to kill foxes. It does not come naturally to them.
Perhaps dogs can be taught to hunt and Kill huntsmen. That would be real sport.
I've often wondered about this because our Beagle goes crazy at fox scents and is always on the hunt for them (among other animals, even deer!) , but I'm not actually sure what he'd do if he caught one. I get the feeling it's all about the chase for him.
 

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#22
I'm less forgiving of those who chase and tear them apart for fun.
Oh I agree the guys actions, if as reported, were despicable to say the least and of course illegal.
It is actually illegal to feed ANY live bird or animal, to any other captive animal.
That includes Rats or mice to snakes, pigeons to birds of prey etc etc.

There is at least one anomaly in the report though, foxes have never been a protected species. They are classified as a pest species by DEFRA.
And therefore can be humanly killed.
 
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#23
It is interesting that Dogs have to be taught to kill foxes. It does not come naturally to them.
It comes very naturally to our crossed fell terrier. A scent, and even more so the sight of a fox, and he is frantic to get at it, and his intentions are pretty clear, which is why he is never off the lead.

Dave
 
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#24
Oh I agree the guys actions, if as reported, were despicable to say the least and of course illegal.
It is actually illegal to feed ANY live bird or animal, to any other captive animal.
That includes Rats or mice to snakes, pigeons to birds of prey etc etc.

There is at least one anomaly in the report though, foxes have never been a protected species. They are classified as a pest species by DEFRA.
And therefore can be humanly killed.
Foxes are indeed classed as vermin under DEFRA rules, however it seems they can pretty much only be dispatched via a bullet as they are protected under a series of wildlife protection laws against poisoning, gassing, asphyxiating, maiming, stabbing, impaling, drowning, clubbing and most forms of snaring, with anyone carrying out such acts subject to 6 months imprisonment and/or £5,000 fine per animal.
 

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#25
Foxes are indeed classed as vermin under DEFRA rules
Unless things have changed since 2015, foxes are not classed as vermin by DEFRA, they are defined as pests
 
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#26
Unless things have changed since 2015, foxes are not classed as vermin by DEFRA, they are defined as pests
To me, they are both vermin and pests - but this only applies to the relatively few that take the easy option of killing lambs, hens and other poultry. The ones seen approaching lambs etc are (literally) targeted, the rest, which just get on with their lives and which hunt their natural prey, are left alone on our farm.

One significant problem is the do-gooders who catch urban foxes and dump them in the countryside. These foxes can't earn their living because they don't have the necessary hunting skills and they either starve to death or predate hens etc.
 

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#27
One significant problem is the do-gooders who catch urban foxes and dump them in the countryside. These foxes can't earn their living because they don't have the necessary hunting skills and they either starve to death or predate hens etc.
Or raid bins, we used to get a fair few where I lived, tiny scrawny things, you could always tell the difference
I actually saw someone releasing them from a van when I was walking the dogs very early one morning
 
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#28
One significant problem is the do-gooders who catch urban foxes and dump them in the countryside. These foxes can't earn their living because they don't have the necessary hunting skills and they either starve to death or predate hens etc.
Yet again/another example of Homo Sapiens making a mess of "managing" the environment :(
 
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#29
Unless things have changed since 2015, foxes are not classed as vermin by DEFRA, they are defined as pests
:rolleyes: Doesn't alter the main point of my post.
 
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#30
To me, they are both vermin and pests - but this only applies to the relatively few that take the easy option of killing lambs, hens and other poultry. The ones seen approaching lambs etc are (literally) targeted, the rest, which just get on with their lives and which hunt their natural prey, are left alone on our farm.

One significant problem is the do-gooders who catch urban foxes and dump them in the countryside. These foxes can't earn their living because they don't have the necessary hunting skills and they either starve to death or predate hens etc.
Apart from the stupidity of thinking it is OK for the average bod to catch an urban fox and relocate it somewhere with little thought to the consequences I don't see why they would do it.

True, sometimes we see, in this bit of east London, a fox suffering from mange but quite a few around here look in good nick and are probably having an easier life than they would in rural areas. Perhaps the catching and removing to the countryside is more to do with not wanting foxes to 'spoil' their nice gardens than looking after the interests of the foxes.

Dave
 
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#31
All the foxes I saw in East London were in much better nick than the ones I see living here in the countryside.
Most mornings there was one going down the bins next to the Chinese restaurant.
Daresay it came back an hour or so later for another feed

Still find it sickening to see the upper class hunting twits all dressed up like a pox doctors clerk
 
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#34
Well, I wasn't in court and didn't hear the story but . . .
Given the repeated reports that some hunts breed foxes that are then released into the wild so that that the hunt can chase them, it's possible that this was the defence that was advanced and that this was what was believed.

Interesting thought, but that would be illegal, and huntsmen tend to act within the law.
And then huntsmen are shocked when people take it upon themselves to dish out a bit of “justice” on them during a hunt.they seem to be as deluded as politicians
 
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#36
Feed the ********(not the cubs) to the dogs, there are a family of foxes living in an old hospital near me, I understand they will trapped and the vet will despatch them, and local nursing home's chickens will breath easier.
If fox hunting is not permitted why have packs of hounds? just let the pack die out naturally, if the hunt wants to ride out across the fields in their finery they can still do so, no need for a pack of dogs milling about.
 

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#37
however it seems they can pretty much only be dispatched via a bullet
Yes you are quite right I neglected to mention they can only be killed by lawful means and that is pretty much shooting,
Dogs ( 2 IIRC) can still be used to track a fox on horse back or other wise, but it must be shot.
Live traps can be used when shooting is not an option, but must be dispatched humanely, bullet, captive bolt, lethal injection.

with anyone carrying out such acts subject to 6 months imprisonment and/or £5,000 fine per animal.
That's the standard tariff for any wildlife crime (y)
 
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#38
I'm happy to concede to your superior knowledge (I know this is your line of business). I have no problem with them being dealt with by professionals.
I'm less forgiving of those who chase and tear them apart for fun.
Yup. This is the key thing for me.

I'm a vegi and all for animal rights but the sad fact is that sometimes animals need to be controlled and that can obviously involve killing them. Foxes aren't in danger of extinction but I do still feel for the individual animals but also the animals foxes kill... it's a difficult thing for any animal lover to come to terms with.

I do think that when animals are killed it should be dons as humanely as possible and without taking pleasure from the process.

Fox hunting with dogs may be an upper class activity but animal cruelty and sick individuals aren't limited to the upper classes and the idiots in my part of the world who brag about how many deer their dogs tore apart last night can sit in a hot corner of hell with the upper class fox hunting twits.
 
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#40
Yes you are quite right I neglected to mention they can only be killed by lawful means and that is pretty much shooting,
Dogs ( 2 IIRC) can still be used to track a fox on horse back or other wise, but it must be shot.
Live traps can be used when shooting is not an option, but must be dispatched humanely, bullet, captive bolt, lethal injection.


That's the standard tariff for any wildlife crime (y)
Maybe the politicians who came up with that one had watched too many cowboy movies, where the hero can hit a small, fast-moving target with extreme accuracy using a pistol whilst galloping on a horse - wish I was good enough to shoot foxes with anything other than a centrefire rifle . . .

The reality is that shooting foxes that have been 'tracked' with dogs is a technical impossibility, as I don't hunt myself I'm not qualified to say whether or not they even try.
 
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