The Amazing Sony A1/A7/A9/APS-C & Anything else welcome Mega Thread!

stevelmx5 said:
I know you’re not a fanboy Allan because you’ve told us many times ;0) but you do seem a bit upset about CaNikon coming into the FF mirrorless market? I think it’s likely they’ll introduce a good range of lenses (especially if they’re already working with Sigma), along with more pocket-friendly options so it will be good to see how it affects the market.

If you’re happy with your A7 m then it won’t have any impact on you I guess?
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I'd like a fair world where people buy the best regardless of brand but the world we have is one in which people don't always buy the best and instead buy a steaming pile of doggie doo if it has the right badge.

Actually I would buy British if possible to keep jobs and wealth here assuming the British thingy was anywhere near comparable but as we're talking digital camera gear that's not really an option so I'm happy enough buying the best cost / quality / value / usage thingy for me and I'm always a little appalled when people buy something because of the badge and I do think that'll happen if Canon and to a lesser extent Nikon bring out a mirrorless camera that's... less good than it could be.

The only way this could affect me a lot is if my A7 dies and I rush out to buy another only to find that because everyone prefers a pile of doo doo with a Canon badge to a cutting edge product with a Sony badge they've thrown in the towel and gone off in a huff to make yet more DVD players and games consoles.

I do wish people could be less badge and brand obsessed. Look what happened to Samsung, good products but no one cared and the relatively poor Canon offerings sell well...
 
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Swiss Toni said:
That's fanboi talk, if you're happy with what you've got why would market share bother you at all.
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Because I get a bit miffed when people buy crap because of the badge. I want to slap them until they're not badge obsessed any more.
 
woof woof said:
I'd like a fair world where people buy the best regardless of brand but the world we have is one in which people don't always buy the best and instead buy a steaming pile of doggie doo if it has the right badge.

Actually I would buy British if possible to keep jobs and wealth here assuming the British thingy was anywhere near comparable but as we're talking digital camera gear that's not really an option so I'm happy enough buying the best cost / quality / value / usage thingy for me and I'm always a little appalled when people buy something because of the badge and I do think that'll happen if Canon and to a lesser extent Nikon bring out a mirrorless camera that's... less good than it could be.

The only way this could affect me a lot is if my A7 dies and I rush out to buy another only to find that because everyone prefers a pile of doo doo with a Canon badge to a cutting edge product with a Sony badge they've thrown in the towel and gone off in a huff to make yet more DVD players and games consoles.

I do wish people could be less badge and brand obsessed. Look what happened to Samsung, good products but no one cared and the relatively poor Canon offerings sell well...
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this is just not true though is it, none of the canon or Nikons cameras are rubbish, its just showing your anti big brand-drum banging again. its hard to buy a bad camera now, lets face it most cameras are way better than the lump of meat behind it.
 
woof woof said:
I'd like a fair world where people buy the best regardless of brand but the world we have is one in which people don't always buy the best and instead buy a steaming pile of doggie doo if it has the right badge.

Actually I would buy British if possible to keep jobs and wealth here assuming the British thingy was anywhere near comparable but as we're talking digital camera gear that's not really an option so I'm happy enough buying the best cost / quality / value / usage thingy for me and I'm always a little appalled when people buy something because of the badge and I do think that'll happen if Canon and to a lesser extent Nikon bring out a mirrorless camera that's... less good than it could be.

The only way this could affect me a lot is if my A7 dies and I rush out to buy another only to find that because everyone prefers a pile of doo doo with a Canon badge to a cutting edge product with a Sony badge they've thrown in the towel and gone off in a huff to make yet more DVD players and games consoles.

I do wish people could be less badge and brand obsessed. Look what happened to Samsung, good products but no one cared and the relatively poor Canon offerings sell well...
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I think you have a point that yes, some people are loyal to one of these brands and will buy a product whether its good / bad / anything else. In fact, I think some people that follow Fuji are very protective over the brand. There is a Fuji facebook group that becomes very hostile the moment anyone asks about/ mentions any negatives related to their products.

With regards to Canon and Nikon though, I think it is less of a brand thing and more people wanting their lens lineup/ not wanting a complete system change. In most cases, Canon lenses are great and reasonable priced in comparison to competition. You are happy to use any lens brand under the sun on your Sony, as am I to some respect. Some people only want to use native and therefore stick with CaNikon etc.

Others just don't buy into the mirrorless hype yet.

Some people just trust the bigger brands more.

I am not loyal to any camera brand. In the past year I have gone Canon - Sony - Fuji - Sony (very nearly Nikon)

If Canon brought out a decent mirrorless that could use their EF lenses - I would definitely be interested.
 
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Swiss Toni said:
You're confusing market share with market demand.
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No, I'm not - but there is a significant link between them (a higher market share for Canon means much more Market demand for Canon Lenses, body upgrades, etc, they just need to be 'good enough' to make it better to upgrade than switch).
For other products the link may not be there - 'Supercars', for example, have a very small overall share of the car market - yet have a very high demand (and sometimes a new model will be sold out before the first one rolls out of the factory).

In Sony's case, with A-Mount, the smaller market SHARE that they had meant that as a company, investment in marketing, support services, new products, etc. was lower - which in turn lead to lower market DEMAND (which in turn lowers market share...)

At the moment, Sony FF E Mount is the only option for FF Mirrorless - which in turn creates demand, and their market share improves - Sony respond with more marketing, increasing their support services, etc.

When a Canon or Nikon FF Mirrorless camera appears, IF it's good enough to significantly affect the flow of people switching to Sony, then Sony may well reconsider their strategy, which could be bad for those investing in E Mount.
 
I wouldn't be interested in mounting DSLR zoom lenses on a CSC via an adapter and primes via an adapter wouldn't offer me enough over what I already have. I would possibly be interested in a Canikon CSC if my A7 died and they offered a nice one but I'll be surprised if they get there at the first attempt. In a few years there may be a good choice of compact FF CSC's to choose from but I doubt we'll be at that point next year.

Looking for flare with A7 and old Minolta 35mm f2.8.

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woof woof said:
Because I get a bit miffed when people buy crap because of the badge. I want to slap them until they're not badge obsessed any more.
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But Sony get down on their knees trying to appeal to these people who like badges and such like. I’m not seeing Nikon, canon or Fuji slapping rubbish like “steady shot inside” or something about 4k. This stuff SCREAMS consumer electronics. They literally printing the spec sheet on the camera.
 
addicknchips said:
But Sony get down on their knees trying to appeal to these people who like badges and such like. I’m not seeing Nikon, canon or Fuji slapping rubbish like “steady shot inside” or something about 4k. This stuff SCREAMS consumer electronics. They literally printing the spec sheet on the camera.
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Whatever dude... but you're on sticky ground with Fuji there as they've turned the marketing BS up to 12 with their later cameras... and then a bit further :D And before I'm labelled a Fuji hater I'll remind you that my first digital camera was a Fuji :D

One last one from the other day, very pleased with her snowman :D

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woof woof said:
Because I get a bit miffed when people buy crap because of the badge. I want to slap them until they're not badge obsessed any more.
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I understand the frustrations Alan ( I get just as frustrated when people think average spec lenses are good value at £600 ;)) but that's a result of Sony not having any competition in the FF mirrorless market. I'm currently happy with my A7 and some of the compromises I make with regards to its' performance for what I use it for. However, if Canon or Nikon released a similar spec FF mirrorless system, I wouldn't be against seeing what they're like and potentially swapping systems to try them. That's the point of choice in the market and can only be a good thing.

I really can't see Sony shelving their entire mirrorless ecosystem just because CaNikon enter the market and if some people wanted to buy CaNikon over Sony that's their choice. As it stands, a Nikon D750 destroys a Sony A7 in many regards (low light AF, tracking, lens lineup) but that doesn't mean the A7 can't exist alongside it. There are more than enough buyers to go around.
 
woof woof said:
Because I get a bit miffed when people buy crap because of the badge. I want to slap them until they're not badge obsessed any more.
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Has it ever entered your head that someone might want to choose something different to what you think is the be all and end all?

Are you a professional photographer, do you review cameras for a living, why should anyone take any notice of your Sony obsession before they buy into a camera system?
 
Swiss Toni said:
Has it ever entered your head that someone might want to choose something different to what you think is the be all and end all?

Are you a professional photographer, do you review cameras for a living, why should anyone take any notice of your Sony obsession before they buy into a camera system?
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And choice is fine and good - having a choice of quality cameras & lenses is good for consumers - the issue is that many sales are made, not on the basis of informed choice, but simply because Canon are the 'Market Leader' - IE they have greatest market share.
And they have sufficient lead in market share, that this becomes self-fulfilling - Canon camera sell, in part, not because of their strengths, but because they have a Canon badge on them.

Which is both good and bad for consumers
- good, because it forces companies like Sony to innovate and create cameras like the A9 and A7Riii
- bad, because if the market share of the top 3-4 manufacturers was a bit more evenly split, they would ALL have to innovate -making Canon and Nikon cameras even better, and Sony Lenses cheaper (due to increased sales volumes).

It's a bit like personal computers - the OS is dominated by Microsoft, then Apple, with Linux (in all it's varieties) in 3rd.
And it's not because Win 10 is better than Linux, it's simply because 'everyone' uses Windows, so whenever someone new goes to buy a PC, most of the time it will be a Windows PC - and so the dominance perpetuates.
 
Faldrax said:
When a Canon or Nikon FF Mirrorless camera appears, IF it's good enough to significantly affect the flow of people switching to Sony, then Sony may well reconsider their strategy, which could be bad for those investing in E Mount.
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So what you're saying is that Canon/Nikon shouldn't be allowed to develop anything remotely similar to the system you have bought into because it might affect you personally,

I think you're advocating some form of protectionism..........or maybe it's just sour grapes. :dummy:
 
Swiss Toni said:
So what you're saying is that Canon/Nikon shouldn't be allowed to develop anything remotely similar to the system you have bought into because it might affect you personally,

I think you're advocating some form of protectionism..........or maybe it's just sour grapes. :dummy:
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No, I'm quite happy for Canon, Nikon, or anyone else to develop and release whatever they want.

BUT there is a lot of 'brand blindness' in the camera market - because Canon and Nikon have the majority of the market share between them, that is what people are recommended when they ask, and that is what they see in store when they go to buy.

What I don't want to see is Sony scaling back their investment and innovation because they are unable to compete against this weight of numbers.
What I want is to see Sony upping their game, advancing their pro support, adding 'consumer' and 'intermediate' level lenses to the range available - bringing out more 'robust' bodies which can compete with the top end Canon and Nikon cameras on durability as well as beating them on technical capabilities.
I want Sony (and Nikon) to level the playing field in terms of market share on their merits - but since even Nikon seems unable to close the gap on Canon, I am concerned that this won't happen, and we will fall back to just Canon and Nikon, and their old model of minor refinements instead of innovation.
 
stevelmx5 said:
I understand the frustrations Alan ( I get just as frustrated when people think average spec lenses are good value at £600 [/B];)) but that's a result of Sony not having any competition in the FF mirrorless market. I'm currently happy with my A7 and some of the compromises I make with regards to its' performance for what I use it for. However, if Canon or Nikon released a similar spec FF mirrorless system, I wouldn't be against seeing what they're like and potentially swapping systems to try them. That's the point of choice in the market and can only be a good thing.

I really can't see Sony shelving their entire mirrorless ecosystem just because CaNikon enter the market and if some people wanted to buy CaNikon over Sony that's their choice. As it stands, a Nikon D750 destroys a Sony A7 in many regards (low light AF, tracking, lens lineup) but that doesn't mean the A7 can't exist alongside it. There are more than enough buyers to go around.
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I don't think I actually said that the lens was good value did I? But I might have mentioned the fact that it's £100 cheaper than a similar spec lens produced by another CSC manufacturer.

What surprises me is people's lack of context. Yes, that APS-C "kit" lens looks expensive in isolation but if it's what other people charge then it's par for the course and what you should have done was have a pop at the whole world rather than just Sony but you didn't do that you just had a pop at Sony. A few seconds Googling would have enabled you to use a shotgun at more targets rather than a sniper rifle to just aim at Sony.

Just my HO of course but I think that a reasoned and reasonable rant is better than an unreasonable one. If that's what the type cost then that's what they cost or indeed £100 more if you buy the Fuji until someone bucks the trend whilst keeping the same quality.

As to D750 v A7, the point of me going mirrorless was never for ultimate image quality but for a blend of image quality, portability and cutting down on the weight, bulk and look at the p**** with the DSLR factor. Back when I had my 5D it was on the point of being pushed out of the door by the humble Panasonic G1 so when the A7 came along the 5D was out the door. I can't see myself ever going back now because I've come to like mirrorless and all of the things that come with it. Adequate image quality is ok for me and I now love the benefits for me of mirrorless.
 
I'm board of pup talk now...

It's snowing here but no opportunity to go out. No one else got any snow pictures?
 
Faldrax said:
No, I'm quite happy for Canon, Nikon, or anyone else to develop and release whatever they want.

BUT there is a lot of 'brand blindness' in the camera market - because Canon and Nikon have the majority of the market share between them, that is what people are recommended when they ask, and that is what they see in store when they go to buy.

What I don't want to see is Sony scaling back their investment and innovation because they are unable to compete against this weight of numbers.
What I want is to see Sony upping their game, advancing their pro support, adding 'consumer' and 'intermediate' level lenses to the range available - bringing out more 'robust' bodies which can compete with the top end Canon and Nikon cameras on durability as well as beating them on technical capabilities.
I want Sony (and Nikon) to level the playing field in terms of market share on their merits - but since even Nikon seems unable to close the gap on Canon, I am concerned that this won't happen, and we will fall back to just Canon and Nikon, and their old model of minor refinements instead of innovation.
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Can we also have Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic and Pentax increasing their market share to increase competition and innovation too. ;) I know you were only talking about what you want, but the more competition the better surely. :D

Canon lead the market because they seem to give most people what they want. Maybe that's marketing and/or brand loyalty but that is what the others have to compete with. If all the innovation and better tech of competitors is not impacting on their market lead then maybe that is what the market wants. If Canon are not significantly losing market share, why takes risk with huge innovations! For the people that want better tech and innovation the alternatives are there, but maybe not in the numbers competitors would like. They are still selling though.;)

But for most people any camera from any manufacturer is good enough. People who frequent forums like this have a skewed view of the camera market. The rise of the cameras in phones tells you for a lot of people that is good enough. Now you may say that they rise of the camera phone is because of small size and convenience, and that is a huge part of it of course, but don't underestimate that the camera they have in them is good enough for a huge number of people. Now the thought may arise that if people want the convenience of small size then mirrorless may be the answer, and for some it is attractive, but they are still big and heavy compared to a phone. Make it a FF mirrorless and the size and weight saving may not be hugely significant over a DSLR, especially if it is something used occasionally, especially if you are sticking heavy lenses on cameras. But that is an argument that will go on and on. :rolleyes: Most people don't want large interchangeable lens camera.

The problem I see with Sony trying to compete with Canon, and Nikon, is that they are not seen as a camera manufacturer by a lot of people when they decide to go beyond the camera phone.

The other thing for me is that they can be fickle. They have a recent history of stopping lines of cameras. Once they bpught Minolta they go DSLR, but then no, we'll try something different because we were having little effect on the big two, so SLT and the benefits compared to DSLR's, but then no, not really any more, we think mirrorless is the way to go. They seem to throw a load of formats out there to see what works, which is good from an innovation and survival of the fittest point of view, but not if you backed one of their casualties. ;)

They may innovate and have amazing products, but as cameras are not a huge part of their business, there is always something in the back of the mind that says if the numbers don't make sense, they can walk away like Samsung. How likely that is is anyone's guess, but a big company at the cutting edge of tech walked away from the camera market, so it is not as if it is unprecedented. Also supplying Sensors for the majority of competitors means they are making money from them too. The owners of Lexar got out of the memory card market because they were making more money in other parts of their business. Mmm, who does that sound like! ;)

Something to think/talk about on a cold rainy afternoon with no football anyway. :LOL:
 
woof woof said:
I don't think I actually said that the lens was good value did I? But I might have mentioned the fact that it's £100 cheaper than a similar spec lens produced by another CSC manufacturer.

What surprises me is people's lack of context. Yes, that APS-C "kit" lens looks expensive in isolation but if it's what other people charge then it's par for the course and what you should have done was have a pop at the whole world rather than just Sony but you didn't do that you just had a pop at Sony. A few seconds Googling would have enabled you to use a shotgun at more targets rather than a sniper rifle to just aim at Sony.

Just my HO of course but I think that a reasoned and reasonable rant is better than an unreasonable one. If that's what the type cost then that's what they cost or indeed £100 more if you buy the Fuji until someone bucks the trend whilst keeping the same quality.
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No Alan, you justified the Sony price by saying that the Fuji is £100 more. I agreed that all of the mirrorless manufacturers were taking advantage of their smaller ranges meaning they can fleece their owners. I also stated that Canon manage to sell their lens with the same optical characteristics as the Sony/Fuji for half the price so it’s clearly feasible to do that.

If CaNikon can release FF mirrorless systems and back them with a good range of lenses at affordable prices I’d be a fool not to be happy about that. I don’t really care what badge is on my camera if it delivers results I like at a price point that makes sense. If it means Sony lose market share and spit their dummy, I’ll move to CaNikon and continue shooting.
 
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twist said:
Strange, Ive never had a single person say that to me or anyone I know with a DSLR, maybe just you?
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@woof woof I also think you need to stop saying that. I have seen you say that about 5 times in the last couple of months. I don't think anyone looks at a person and thinks that. More like 'look at that loser with their massive camera' - to which I personally couldn't care less.
 
woof woof said:
As to D750 v A7, the point of me going mirrorless was never for ultimate image quality but for a blend of image quality, portability and cutting down on the weight, bulk and look at the p**** with the DSLR factor.
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Quotes like this just make you look like you've lost the plot!
 
Swiss Toni said:
Quotes like this just make you look like you've lost the plot!
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Whereas your posts just make me groan and on this occasion it's not just because your having another little snipe but also because I have to say this again.

Again. I don't live in the best of areas and walking around with a big F-OFF camera with a big F-OFF lens gets attention I don't want, it especially happens when I'm by myself. Even the other day out with my wife (the snowman pictures) all I had was my teeny tiny A7 and Minolta lenses but I was still approached and asked what I was up to THREE F-ING TIMES and we were followed off where we were until we got the high street. The people following me/us isn't run of the mill but it's not the first time not I think for mugging but maybe more that they think I'm some sort of benefit investigator/official out snooping. Comments and questions are more likely if I stop to shoot and the wife is up ahead and not obviously with me or even if she's there but I'm pointing the camera at something other than her. I don't want to have to explain and/or have a confrontation every 5 minutes when I'm out just because I have a camera but such is life and the suspicious public when they see a man with a camera. Using a CSC is bad enough, DSLR's and big lenses are even more hassle :(

If it's not like this where you live I'm happy for you but do me a favor, block / ignore me or just stop with the sniping.
 
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Riz_Guru said:
I keep telling myself that..... but I know Sony will bring out a A9 type camera with 50mp + :eek: :D lol
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I keep telling myself that I'll have a look at the A7III when it appears but I know that I'll probably not bother, the A7 still does pretty much everything I need it to. A silent shutter might be nice though for indoor pictures, at the mo I use my Panny cameras for indoor social pictures.
 
woof woof said:
Whereas your posts just make me groan and on this occasion it's not just because your having another little snipe but also because I have to say this again.

Again. I don't live in the best of areas and walking around with a big F-OFF camera with a big F-OFF lens gets attention I don't want, it especially happens when I'm by myself. Even the other day out with my wife (the snowman pictures) all I had was my teeny tiny A7 and Minolta lenses but I was still approached and asked what I was up to THREE F-ING TIMES and we were followed off where we were until we got the high street. The people following me/us isn't run of the mill but it's not the first time not I think for mugging but maybe more that they think I'm some sort of benefit investigator/official out snooping. Comments and questions are more likely if I stop to shoot and the wife is up ahead and not obviously with me or even if she's there but I'm pointing the camera at something other than her. I don't want to have to explain and/or have a confrontation every 5 minutes when I'm out just because I have a camera but such is life and the suspicious public when they see a man with a camera. Using a CSC is bad enough, DSLR's and big lenses are even more hassle :(

If it's not like this where you live I'm happy for you but do me a favor, block / ignore me or just stop with the sniping.
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Use a bag?

You make it sound like you are living with ISIS. Where in the UK can be this bad?
 
woof woof said:
I keep telling myself that I'll have a look at the A7III when it appears but I know that I'll probably not bother, the A7 still does pretty much everything I need it to. A silent shutter might be nice though for indoor pictures, at the mo I use my Panny cameras for indoor social pictures.
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Get it bought! :D
 
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