The Amazing Sony A1/A7/A9/APS-C & Anything else welcome Mega Thread!

Must - resist - and - wait - for - proper - reviews - and - to - try - it - out - in - a - shop - first :)
 
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I'm liking the look of these cameras, i was all set to get a 6D but this could be a better option for me.
But does one go for the A7 or the A7R other than a higher resolution i'm not sure what the difference is.
 
Spec looks good but for me I think its too small, similar to the EM5 which I've struggled to hold comfortably, probably a 6D for me next.

That's a good point. I switched to the Fuji X system for just over a year and whilst the small size was at first a revelation after a while it just didn't fell right. Switched back to DSLR. Not just for this reason but it does just feel more comfortable in the hand.

I must admit though that it does look interesting but for me will definitely be a case of wait and see.
 
I'm liking the look of these cameras, i was all set to get a 6D but this could be a better option for me.
But does one go for the A7 or the A7R other than a higher resolution i'm not sure what the difference is.

Headline differences that I'm aware of

A7R: contrast detect only
A7: contrast detect and phase detect AF

A7R: Magnesium front plate
A7: Plastic front plate

Apparently the stiffer front on the A7R is to allow it to handle heavier lenses on the front without flexing and stressing the lens mount unduly. Personally, if I'm putting a lens that big on the front of a camera I'm likely to be mounting the lens on a tripod rather than the camera body. If it's not on a tripod, I'll be supporting the lens body with my hand and not just gripping the camera body.

They both have a magnesium chassis and top plate.

A7R: billet aluminium dials on the top plate
A7: plastic dials with an aluminium skin

and of course

A7R: 36 Mpx
A7: 24 Mpx

The 36 Mpx sensor in the A7R has offset microlenses better handle light striking it at an angle, so as to reduce vignetting and colour shift that was seen using wide angle rangefinder lenses on the NEX 7.

The same trick was employed by Leica on the M9: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/leicam9

Primarily this is an issue with RF lens designs such Biogons and Hologons. If you're shooting with adapted SLR lenses, the rear element of the lens is that much further forward that the light will hit the sensor much closer to perpendicular and it should be much less of a problem.

Allegedly, this allows the A7R to keep up with the (lower density and consequently) larger sensor sites on the A7 and consequently maintain noise performance at higher ISO levels. Without this trick, I'm unsure how the A7 would perform with WA RF lenses; it may be that the sensor sites are big enough to not make a huge difference to the corners.

Finally

A7R: no anti-alias filter (hence the 'R' badge, which distinguishes the Sony RX1 from the RX1R)
A7: anti-alias filter

The lack of anti-alias filter on the R should produce sharper results, at the cost of an increased risk of moire appearing in close-line patterns, which will have to be dealt with in PP.

Edit: Oh, and the A7 is available with the kit 24-70 zoom, while the A7R is available as a body only.

Sony are not selling the kit zoom separately from the A7 kit, so if you want a native lens for the A7R on day 1, the only option available is the 35mm f/2.8. You'll have to wait a month or two for the Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 or the Zeiss 24-70 2.8.
 
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Spec looks good but for me I think its too small, similar to the EM5 which I've struggled to hold comfortably, probably a 6D for me next.
You should have gone for a Panny GH3 and not followed the Fashionistas who say the only good u4/3 cameras are made by Olympus ;) I don't have a EM5 - it is too small to hold, but the size advantages of u4/3 lenses are too big (pun intended ;)) to ignore.
 
Apparently the stiffer front on the A7R is to allow it to handle heavier lenses on the front without flexing and stressing the lens mount unduly. Personally, if I'm putting a lens that big on the front of a camera I'm likely to be mounting the lens on a tripod rather than the camera body. If it's not on a tripod, I'll be supporting the lens body with my hand and not just gripping the camera body.

They both have a magnesium chassis and top plate.

I did read somewhere on one of the usual sites linked from the Alpha rumour site that it's not a stress issue as the chassis is what includes the mount and what takes the weight and is the same on both bodies. They said that the A7's plastic cover is just a cover and not a stressed component and is plastic to reduce cost only.

If we believe that... and I think I do as personally I doubt they'd want a rash of warranty complaints due to weak mounts... but I do wonder how much money a plastic plate saves them over a metal one, it must be just pennies per unit :thinking:
 
Yep. I think I'd seen a comment about the lens mount somewhere on one of the FredMiranda threads on the A7/R

Sony Australia Presentation notes the chassis ensures the lens mount and sensor remain aligned and that the magnesium front on the A7R is to enhance the stiffness of the body, presumably more for feel rather than imaging accuracy or to prevent failure.

YouTube segment on the topic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VfSrsqn3ESc#t=953
 
Spec looks good but for me I think its too small, similar to the EM5 which I've struggled to hold comfortably, probably a 6D for me next.

I am the other way round,lost the use of one of my finger so my XE-1 feel nice to hold,the other problem when it get cold the finger really play up painful,so now days a smaller camera suit me.
But saying all that i do miss the good solid weight of an pro DSLR.

:)
 
I did read somewhere on one of the usual sites linked from the Alpha rumour site that it's not a stress issue as the chassis is what includes the mount and what takes the weight and is the same on both bodies. They said that the A7's plastic cover is just a cover and not a stressed component and is plastic to reduce cost only.

If we believe that... and I think I do as personally I doubt they'd want a rash of warranty complaints due to weak mounts... but I do wonder how much money a plastic plate saves them over a metal one, it must be just pennies per unit :thinking:

I would think the only problem would be say,if your using adapters with large DSLR lenses :)
 
I would think the only problem would be say,if your using adapters with large DSLR lenses :)

I may be wrong but at the mo I don't see the plastic front of the A7 being a problem over the A7r as long as it is just a cover.

I can see this running and being a reason for some to buy the r just as people believed that the Canon 60D would fall apart, it being a plastic toy rather than a real mans magnesium 50D.

Time will tell.
 
Now that I've seen the size of it in that video I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT!
 
Now that I've seen the size of it in that video I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT!

Lenses could be a problem though unless like me you'd mostly use legacy.

I'd rather have seen 35, 50 and 85mm f1.8's instead of the current line up and the slow zooms disappoint but I suppose that's to keep the size and weight down. I do wonder why modern lenses must be so... massive. As I remember it the AF zoom lens I used on my old Nikon SLR wasn't the bloated heavy monstrosity modern lenses are and I have big prints on the wall that look good to me.

As some (me included) have pointed out on this forum it's the size of the camera + lens that matters and MFT and APS-C offer very good performance, easily good enough for many, with less bulk and less weight.

Personally, I'm going to have to think long and hard about what's the best way forward for me. I don't want to use my 5D kit so a lighter and more compact system is more appealing but what does the 7r offer over the smaller formats? Slightly better performance at the highest ISO's, slightly better DR, slightly better IQ under an electron microscope... thinner DoF but that needs to be balanced against the need for deeper DoF and the associated impact on ISO and shutter speed and once you start stopping down you can get the same image from a smaller format... FF+50mm@f2.8/MFT+25mm@f1.4=Near enough the same thing.

Hmmmmm????...
 
Yep I'm itching to get back into a smaller system, Admittedly full frame lenses still mean big, but since I already have them anyway on my film cameras I'm not so fussed!

You must have forgotten about the Nikon 2.8 zooms though, they ain't small!
 
f2.8? In my dreams... mine was just a slow 28-70mm and it was compact and light but I can't remember where the motor was, lens or body. Still, it made for a compact combination.

Looking at the prints I have on the wall the only obvious issue is some vignetting which wouldn't be an issue with todays software.

I often wonder why modern lenses are so massive, I suppose they are better but I wonder if they're better in a way which would matter in real world images.

FF v APS-C v MFT??? Hmmmm.
 
Well switching from S5+ 80-200 f2.8 to A7R + 70-210 F4 would better than halve my bag weight for the same DOF at the expense of reach and AF (which TBH was never much good). Hmm...36Mp images of blurry crap, or 6mp blurry pictures of blurry crap....hmmm...
 
Does anyone know if these cameras have shake sensor cleaning?
 
Does anyone know if these cameras have shake sensor cleaning?

I can't be sure, but I thought I remember hearing them mention that they do in the Sony Australia vid.

Postscript to the differences between the A7 and A7R:

I found this feature-by-feature comparison

http://photographylife.com/sony-a7-vs-a7r

The A7 has an option to use electronic first curtain shutter, while the A7R does not, which has an effect on the maximum flash sync speeds

A7: 1/250
A7R: 1/160
 
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I'm the opposite on these, I used to have a G3 and then went to a D90 and now a D600. The size of the D600 still seems compact to me and having picked up a D3100 the other day, I just couldn't go back to anything smaller.

Still looks like a nice bit of kit, but I wouldn't want to be hanging a big old lens on the end of it.
 
Same here. Apart from i think it's a horrid looking thing, I would much rather a little heft for full frame. I just don't get the excitement over this one. But, there are eager spenders for just about everything that becomes available.
 
Same here. Apart from i think it's a horrid looking thing, I would much rather a little heft for full frame. I just don't get the excitement over this one. But, there are eager spenders for just about everything that becomes available.

I find it's nice to have a decent bulk for steady shooting at slower speeds, but when you spend more time walking to and from locations with the thing round your neck it suddenly becomes a lot less attractive.

There's excitement because for many, myself included, a small full frame camera is very much the holy grail. Not only is it small in it's own right, but it can very easily accept all my old manual lenses, and having an EVF it means focussing them on the fly is a doddle and makes them a very viable alternative. Couple that to the fact that it's size and style perfectly matches the cameras these old lenses were meant to be used on in the first place, and you've got a very nice camera indeed.

Put it this way, if you shoot exclusively say with a 35mm or 50mm prime, a common setup, do you think it's preferable to do that on a D3 or an A7?

In the right hands, this looks like a very, very capable camera: http://briansmith.com/sony-a7r-field-test/
 
I have some reasons for my interest in these cameras that are very particular to me.

I like manual focus. My first AF camera was an EOS 300D in 2004 and I'd been taking photos for well over 20 years before that.

I've never got on particularly well with autofocus, partly because I feel it's letting the camera make decisions for me and I do struggle persuading the AF mechanism to focus on the part of the scene that is MY point of interest. AF is great for snapshots, but I prefer manual for my more 'serious' work.

However, manual focus on any SLR designed for AF is a somewhat unrewarding experience; you have no traditional focusing aids such as a split screen rangefinder. It's possible to buy after-market replacement screens that do have a rangefinder, but they are often dim, won't work with slower lenses and cause metering problems. There is AF confirm, but it's still the camera judging focus, not me. Unlike a lot people, I'm rarely taking photos of fast moving action, so the benefits of AF are largely irrelevant to me. I'd rather take my time, think about what's in the viewfinder and get it right.

I also still shoot film and have a fairly extensive collection of Canon FD bodies and lenses. The A7 offers me the option of taking out one bag of lenses with me to use with both a film and digital body, which happens to be about the same size as my Canon A-1.

I do this that at the moment with a Panasonic G2, but I have to compromise my selection of lenses to take into account the different angles of view on a full frame and 2x crop. The A7 is full-frame, so that problem goes away. I know I'm happy using an EVF for framing and focusing, and the EVF on the A7 ought to be leagues ahead of the G2.

Besides, because of registration distance issues, I simply cannot mount FD lenses on my 5D (or any other SLR system) without using an adapter with an optical adapter (and yes, that would be a lot simpler if I switched completely to Olympus OM or just about anything but FD for 35mm film :))

With an A7, it would be like taking out a couple of bodies, one loaded with monochrome and the other colour film, but adding a third option, digital.

There's a weight and size saving question, too. MF lenses are generally much more compact and often lighter than their modern AF equivalents. The OM primes I have are barely larger than common lenses for Micro 4/3. If I take a 5D, grip and 70-200 f/2.8L IS out with me, that's over 2.5 Kg that won't fit into a shoulder bag.

Now, I appreciate that these are somewhat quirky reasons for thinking that the A7 may be my next camera, but it does look a rather compelling replacement for both my 5D and G2.
 
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There's excitement because.....

I have some reasons for my interest in these cameras that are very particular to me.

I agree with all these points.

When I head out with my camera I usually take just one or on some occasions two lenses. If I'm using my 5D that's quite a bit of bulk and weight but if I'm using my G1 it's a fraction of the bulk and weight of the FF kit. As I've said here a couple of times the first time I went out with my G1 I honestly had to check a couple of times to see that it was still in the bag such was the reduction in weight over a 5D+50mm f1.4.

I'm not really interested in manually focusing a DSLR unless the subject is very big in the frame but with a CSC it's easy... just call up the magnified view, focus and shoot. Being honest I'd rather use AF lenses with full time manual focus but these days for DSLR's they're usually big fat and heavy and for CSC they have no markings and no feel and these factors push me into using manual lenses. Compare the bulk and weight of a 5D + Sigma 50mm f1.4 to a G1+legacy or even AF lens and it's clear to me which combination I'd rather take. Plus for me the attention I get from other people is a big factor and DSLR's are just too attention grabbing.

My ideal would be a camera about the size (I accept that modern kit is never going to match the weight of a film set up, it's always going to be heavier,) of the film SLR's, RF's and quality compacts of not so long ago and I'm not going to get that from a DSLR. So for me the future is probably mirrorless non DSLR.

What I'm going to have to do is balance the pros and cons of FF v smaller formats as the image quality advantages of FF these days are limitied to the very extremes whilst the smaller formats offer good enough image quiality most of the time. The main advantage I see for FF over smaller formats is the change in focal lengths but that needs to be balanced against the changes in ISO and shutter speed as for handheld shooting I'll be using smaller apertures with a FF set up. This is apparent to me when taking the 5D out after getting used to the G1.

I have some thinking to do... FF v Nex 6 v GX7.

My only concern that's stopping me ditching the 5D now is EVF performance in low light. I used to take a lot of low light / nightime shots but these days I've just given up as the G1 is unusable.
 
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...I do this that at the moment with a Panasonic G2, but I have to compromise my selection of lenses to take into account the different angles of view on a full frame and 2x crop. The A7 is full-frame, so that problem goes away.
When it really comes down to it,
it's a proper-sensored G2. (or GH1, which was first?)
i.e. kinda perfect.

I hope they don't fudge-up the colours or the reliability.
 
Just been reading the specs on Sony UK and...

I can't see any mention of any sensor shake cleaning. There is a reference to "Charge Protection Coating" under the heading of "Anti Dust." It's disappointing if it has no sensor cleaning as this feature is now pretty standard on other cameras.

I notice too that there's no depth of field preview. That does surprise me and again is very disappointing.

I really want to love this camera but the omissions and disappointments seem to mount.
 
I didn't realise it meant that. Its also used as another word for 'thingy' as far as I know.


I think I should point out that 'thingy' can be misconstrued as another word for...:)

I think I'll stick with my 6, it does everything I require.
 
there is no need for it to be separate - it's a full time Live View camera.

Yes. NEX (well, now E-mount Alpha) cameras are WYSIWYG and don't do the auto-diaphragm thing that SLR lenses do. I've seen it claimed this is partly to reduce any residual vibration from closing the aperture blades up and to improve the response time when the shutter button is pressed. Essentially, they're always running in stop-down mode.

Indeed, the Metabones EF Smart Adapter for NEX which allows the NEX body to control the EF lens aperture, has a Wide Open ('reverse DoF' if you like) button on it to open the diaphragm when you press it.
 
Possibly my biggest problem is that it's Sony.

While they have moments of brilliance (like the RX1) they're a bit patchy in their follow ups and consistency (e.g. lack of decent selection and roadmap for lenses for NEX on APS-C).

If this camera were made by Fuji, I think I'd have placed my order by now. They just seem to 'get it'.
 
Possibly my biggest problem is that it's Sony.

While they have moments of brilliance (like the RX1) they're a bit patchy in their follow ups and consistency (e.g. lack of decent selection and roadmap for lenses for NEX on APS-C).

If this camera were made by Fuji, I think I'd have placed my order by now. They just seem to 'get it'.

Got to agree with this, Sony are making superb cameras, but their lens line-ups/road maps are all over the place in my opinion. As much as I love the idea of the a7, they don't have a single lens in the initial line-up that really appeals to me personally. It's telling that more people seem to be talking about it as a legacy lens camera, rather than a system.

Fuji in particular are making them look a bit silly, less than two years into the X mount and already it's a wonderfully fleshed out system with some stunning affordable glass, and a fairly logical clearly defined roadmap. It already feels safe going with Fuji, but with Sony you wonder what they might focus their attention on next.
 
Yep. I don't know if you've heard, but Fuji just released a firmware update for the X100, improving AF performance by 20%, adding focus peaking and a bunch of other goodies.

The X100 was discontinued last year(!)

They listen to their users and they do stuff like that. It's that kind of behaviour that gathers a lot of respect and loyalty.

Sony, on the other hand were surruptitiously installing a Windows rootkit on their customers' computers when they played DRM protected music CDs. They then 'phoned home' reporting on the users' listening habits. It was spyware, malware and they created a security hole that others of nefarious intent could (and did) exploit.

When they got discovered doing this, they released an 'uninstaller' which just stopped hiding their software and harvested the users' email addresses. Oh, and they'd made unauthorised use of open source software code - the irony of Sony infringing other people's copyright in order to prevent their customers from infringing Sony's copyright did not go un-noticed.

The whole affair left a very bad taste in the mouth.

I know Sony BMG are a different division (it's a big corporation and I know first hand that their corporate culture doesn't run on those lines everywhere) and it was a few years ago now, but frankly, I know who I'd rather give my money to.
 
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