The virus. PPE. Part 1

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Tringa said:
I'm not confident that all countries are reporting Covid19 cases and deaths accurately and I don't know the science behind our current policy on Covid19 but the relaxation of the rules just seems wrong when our death rate per capita is so large and the UK has over 10% of all the reported deaths worldwide.

Dave
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I feel the Govt has gone back to where they were at the start when their attititude was that there was not too much to worry about. Now the numbers of deaths have dropped they are relaxing whereas now is the time for maximum effort, as it was at the beginning :(.
 
NeilA1975 said:
Not at all - These people despised Cummings long before the Mirror & Guardian story which they wrongly assumed would be the end of him. That didn't work so now they'll continue to dig for something else to try & pin on him.
This latest story you linked appears to lack any credibility whatsoever which would explain why the media won't go near it with a barge pole - maybe they've learnt their lesson after 'Durham-Gate'. Probably not though.
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Well we will know soon enough

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-52911605
 
Listening to R5 this morning talking about holiday abroad... I can understand people wanting to get out and about but I think eagerness is maybe clouding peoples judgement a bit.
 
sphexx said:
If you refer to Wakefield pushing his own vaccine then this bit is possibly evidence:
”The paper also reportedly warned that current vaccine efforts are doomed because the cause of the virus has been misunderstood. The researchers are attempting to solve this issue by developing their own vaccine, according to the paper.”
(my bold)
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I have to say that rang alarm bells, especially when I further read one of the main authors wanted his name withdrawn and in its current form no science journal will touch it. I can't actually find anything, other than newspaper reports, so its difficult to know, maybe @Retune may have some insight.
 
As I see it, there is so much information / misinformation, so many theories / conspiracy theories,
floating around on the internet, I doubt that the truth will every be known, certainly not in my life time anyway.

But I'd be curious to know what the historians of the future made of all this.
 
woof woof said:
Listening to R5 this morning talking about holiday abroad... I can understand people wanting to get out and about but I think eagerness is maybe clouding peoples judgement a bit.
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I think its people wanting to get back to some form of normality. For many people COVID is very low risk - sure if you are high risk then even a trip to Tesco is probably worth avoiding let alone a holiday, but for many (especially as there is distancing still in place), a holiday is wanted and probably good for them. As Chris Whitty said about schools, there is a risk in kids going back but its outweighed in the advantages of going back.

I would love to go away this summer - if I can I will as the risk is minimal. Many people I know are of the same opinion. If those at risk are shielding then it should not greatly affect most of us.

I think as well, people are confused by why we had no quarantine in place for the last 3 months, and are doing so now. My parents live in Cyprus for example, they have generally at most 1 new case a day, often none, so they are virtually no risk in coming here but would still quarantine!!

The government have said the fulough scheme will end in Oct - so if people are not back to working in pubs, hotels, gyms etc... then how are they going to survive and we will lose transport and leisure companies. As Chris Whitty said, we need to live with the virus.
 
cambsno said:
I think its people wanting to get back to some form of normality. For many people COVID is very low risk - sure if you are high risk then even a trip to Tesco is probably worth avoiding let alone a holiday, but for many (especially as there is distancing still in place), a holiday is wanted and probably good for them. As Chris Whitty said about schools, there is a risk in kids going back but its outweighed in the advantages of going back.

I would love to go away this summer - if I can I will as the risk is minimal. Many people I know are of the same opinion. If those at risk are shielding then it should not greatly affect most of us.

I think as well, people are confused by why we had no quarantine in place for the last 3 months, and are doing so now. My parents live in Cyprus for example, they have generally at most 1 new case a day, often none, so they are virtually no risk in coming here but would still quarantine!!

The government have said the fulough scheme will end in Oct - so if people are not back to working in pubs, hotels, gyms etc... then how are they going to survive and we will lose transport and leisure companies. As Chris Whitty said, we need to live with the virus.
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Seems most/all EU countries are safer than UK at the moment, Greece seems pretty good. Getting there safely might be another matter though.
 
cambsno said:
I think its people wanting to get back to some form of normality. For many people COVID is very low risk - sure if you are high risk then even a trip to Tesco is probably worth avoiding let alone a holiday, but for many (especially as there is distancing still in place), a holiday is wanted and probably good for them. As Chris Whitty said about schools, there is a risk in kids going back but its outweighed in the advantages of going back.

I would love to go away this summer - if I can I will as the risk is minimal. Many people I know are of the same opinion. If those at risk are shielding then it should not greatly affect most of us.

I think as well, people are confused by why we had no quarantine in place for the last 3 months, and are doing so now. My parents live in Cyprus for example, they have generally at most 1 new case a day, often none, so they are virtually no risk in coming here but would still quarantine!!

The government have said the fulough scheme will end in Oct - so if people are not back to working in pubs, hotels, gyms etc... then how are they going to survive and we will lose transport and leisure companies. As Chris Whitty said, we need to live with the virus.
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I see myself as at risk as I have asthma which I'm as sure as I can be was caused by using solder containing rosin, we didn't even have extractors in those days. It was while I was in that job that I developed a cough, I coughed constantly and was sent home. I never recovered and coughed for decades and to this day I constantly feel the urge to cough but can suppress it so I'm not coughing constantly. In the house there's a 92 year old and Mrs WW has a rare blood disorder so we're all at risk imo. I went out this week for the first time since March and I felt very uncomfortable, I didn't see anyone else wearing a mask and the lack of social distancing worried me. I was glad to go home.

I can see the logic in having travel related isolation now as the numbers are dropping so any incoming virus could potentially lead to more cases. I do understand that view and I do see that many people want to get back to some sort of normality but for my household it doesn't seem right just yet.

Actually Mrs WW has just shown me a survey and of 4k+ people surveyed a majority don't want to return to the same normality we had pre c19.

Maybe some "good" can come of this... More working from home? Reduced travel when things can be done in other ways? Maybe more valuing of life?
 
jakeblu said:
I have to say that rang alarm bells, especially when I further read one of the main authors wanted his name withdrawn and in its current form no science journal will touch it. I can't actually find anything, other than newspaper reports, so its difficult to know, maybe @Retune may have some insight.
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It looks like this is the current version of the paper, which seems to have been accepted by a respectable journal:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...content/view/DBBC0FA6E3763B0067CAAD8F3363E527

but any silly claims that the virus was 'engineered' seem to have been removed from the manuscript. Quickly skimming it, it's still an odd paper. They have lots of theoretical justifications for the design of their vaccine, presented as if they were pretty much proven, though there's no experimental verification of anything. They make a big deal about comparing the sequence of the spike protein to the human proteome using BLAST, and selecting only 'non human-like epitopes', by which they mean anything that doesn't happen to have a short match to a human protein (the sort of thing you get when you compare any large protein sequence to a large sequence database). And there are odd bits of pure speculation like this:

'Profuse clinical observations of loss of taste, smell, sore throat, dry cough and headache and severe stomach /gastrointestinal pain with diarrhoea arising in the pandemic are evidence that early phase Covid-19 is binding to the bitter/sweet receptors which also provides a perfect location for followon transmission by coughing.'

I wonder what the back story of this is, and how Dearlove and the Telegraph got hold of it? One of the authors, Angus Dalgleish (who did some good work on HIV back in the day), was a UKIP candidate before the Referendum, and Dearlove has been touting hard Brexit for 'security reasons' for a while. Maybe they go to the same club? I'd love to see the original version of this - from the Mail's reading of the paywalled Telegraph article:

'According to the former MI6 chief, the paper had been rewritten several times, and an earlier version apparently claimed coronavirus could accurately be called the 'Wuhan virus'. An earlier version of the report, seen by the Telegraph, reportedly claimed 'beyond all reasonable doubt that the Covid-19 virus is engineered.''

If Dalgleish and his collaborators want to trash their reputations with this sort of nonsense, then I suppose that's their own affair, but when newspapers are fed it, it just adds to the general fog of disinformation and conspiracy theory.
 
This I found interesting ...

https://elemental.SPAM/coronavirus-...isease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2
 
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Retune said:
It looks like this is the current version of the paper, which seems to have been accepted by a respectable journal:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...content/view/DBBC0FA6E3763B0067CAAD8F3363E527

but any silly claims that the virus was 'engineered' seem to have been removed from the manuscript. Quickly skimming it, it's still an odd paper. They have lots of theoretical justifications for the design of their vaccine, presented as if they were pretty much proven, though there's no experimental verification of anything. They make a big deal about comparing the sequence of the spike protein to the human proteome using BLAST, and selecting only 'non human-like epitopes', by which they mean anything that doesn't happen to have a short match to a human protein (the sort of thing you get when you compare any large protein sequence to a large sequence database). And there are odd bits of pure speculation like this:

'Profuse clinical observations of loss of taste, smell, sore throat, dry cough and headache and severe stomach /gastrointestinal pain with diarrhoea arising in the pandemic are evidence that early phase Covid-19 is binding to the bitter/sweet receptors which also provides a perfect location for followon transmission by coughing.'

I wonder what the back story of this is, and how Dearlove and the Telegraph got hold of it? One of the authors, Angus Dalgleish (who did some good work on HIV back in the day), was a UKIP candidate before the Referendum, and Dearlove has been touting hard Brexit for 'security reasons' for a while. Maybe they go to the same club? I'd love to see the original version of this - from the Mail's reading of the paywalled Telegraph article:

'According to the former MI6 chief, the paper had been rewritten several times, and an earlier version apparently claimed coronavirus could accurately be called the 'Wuhan virus'. An earlier version of the report, seen by the Telegraph, reportedly claimed 'beyond all reasonable doubt that the Covid-19 virus is engineered.''

If Dalgleish and his collaborators want to trash their reputations with this sort of nonsense, then I suppose that's their own affair, but when newspapers are fed it, it just adds to the general fog of disinformation and conspiracy theory.
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I originally read it on the telegraph but chose the metro link as that’s not behind a paywall. I have to say when I read the bit about the Wuhan virus and the claims it wasn’t accepted because it was too critical of China I began to smell BS. The Telegraph article also said an early version of the paper claimed it was “beyond reasonable doubt that the Covid-19 virus is engineered"! .

We’re gonna be see a glut of conspiracy theory videos over the next few weeks, I suppose it’s an improvement on the George Floyd actors conspiracy.

Thanks for such a detailed response, I for one always welcome your contribution to this thread.
 
Tigger.ufo said:
This I found interesting ...

https://elemental.SPAM/coronavirus-...isease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2
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Well that’s very interesting -- I saw heparin was being trialled against it. Also since I take a statin + ACE inhibitor + anti-coagulant I must be immune :) but I doubt it in my case.
 
jakeblu said:
I originally read it on the telegraph but chose the metro link as that’s not behind a paywall. I have to say when I read the bit about the Wuhan virus and the claims it wasn’t accepted because it was too critical of China I began to smell BS. The Telegraph article also said an early version of the paper claimed it was “beyond reasonable doubt that the Covid-19 virus is engineered"! .
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Also in your Metro link:

'Further analysis of the research, due to be released in the coming days, reportedly claims the Covid-19 virus has ‘unique fingerprints’ that indicate ‘purposive manipulation’ by humans. Sir Richard said: ‘As this debate about the virus develops, I think all this material is going to be in print and is going to embarrass a number of people.’'

I wonder if that refers to a second publication containing the 'manipulation' claims, or just to formal publication of the original article from which the claims have been removed? If it's the former, then a number of people are indeed going to be embarrassed, but not in quite the way that Dearlove imagines.
 
Compulsory face coverings to be worn on public transport, hope folks using them make them so they know which way round they had them on the way to work, then use them the same way around on the way home.

I know the protection for the user is little or none but i can't see the sense in risking wearing them the opposite way round later.
 
Retune said:
Also in your Metro link:

'Further analysis of the research, due to be released in the coming days, reportedly claims the Covid-19 virus has ‘unique fingerprints’ that indicate ‘purposive manipulation’ by humans. Sir Richard said: ‘As this debate about the virus develops, I think all this material is going to be in print and is going to embarrass a number of people.’'

I wonder if that refers to a second publication containing the 'manipulation' claims, or just to formal publication of the original article from which the claims have been removed? If it's the former, then a number of people are indeed going to be embarrassed, but not in quite the way that Dearlove imagines.
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I suspect that Sir Richard Dearlove (sounds a perfect name for a James Bond novel character) knows a helluva sight more about this that any of this could begin to imagine.
 
broc said:
I remember as a secondary school governor talking to some students at the school and the subject of dropping litter came up. There were some who felt they were doing a public service by dropping their litter as it kept the council workers employed picking it up......
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I have heard adults make the same claim
 
Track and trace won't be fully operational until September..
 
Tigger.ufo said:
This I found interesting ...

https://elemental.SPAM/coronavirus-...isease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2
Click to expand...

That scares me actually! Could that mean that if the virus does mutate it could become truly devastating?
 
arclight said:
I suspect that Sir Richard Dearlove (sounds a perfect name for a James Bond novel character) knows a helluva sight more about this that any of this could begin to imagine.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36713003

'On 11 September 2002, MI6 reported it was on the edge of a "significant breakthrough". It had a new source inside Iraq with "'phenomenal access" which might be the "key to unlock" Iraqi's biological and chemical weapons programme. The new source said Iraq had accelerated production of its chemical and biological weapons and built further facilities. And the promise was of more intelligence to come. The head of MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove, was confident he had the access and that in a few weeks the source would produce a "CD with everything in it". The dossier on weapons of mass destruction was being drawn up and word had gone out to MI6's agents to deliver. It seemed like they had. The reporting was used to provide assurance in drawing up the dossier that its judgements were right and that Iraq did have the weapons. It was also shown directly to the prime minister whose statement in the foreword to the dossier was that the intelligence was "beyond doubt". The new reporting was never shown though to the technical experts at the Defence Intelligence Staff who expressed some doubts about the overall language in drafts of the dossier. "Sir Richard Dearlove's personal intervention, and its urgency, gave added weight to a report that had not been properly evaluated and would have coloured the perception of ministers and senior officials. The report should have been treated with caution," the inquiry notes.'

' ... Amazingly, reports from the agent were still reissued in April - an MI6 officer failed to tell the Chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, John Scarlett, that the source was apparently lying and said there was no reason to dismiss his information.And it turns out that even from September, some had concerns that the source had been watching too many movies. The new source from September had described "spherical containers" filled with chemical warfare agents. MI6 in April acknowledged it had not been able to "verify fully" the details, but said it had "no reason to dismiss the bulk of this material". However, MI6 also drew attention to the fact the source's description of the device and its spherical glass contents was "remarkably similar to the fictional chemical weapon portrayed in the film The Rock". It even acknowledged that the similarity had been pointed out by one recipient when a report from the agent had been circulated. In June 2003, MI6 finally met the agent. He had been involved in Iraq's chemical weapons pre-1991 and had been involved in destruction activities. He denied providing any of the material attributed to him. MI6 "concluded that its source was a fabricator who had lied from the outset".'

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5Nwct9rKFY
 
dcash29 said:
I think people are stupid for even thinking about it.
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I get on a train from St Pancras and go to Lille for a few days.
Why is that any different to going from the same station for a break in Canterbury?

Obviously the above assumes travel is permitted between the two countries.
 
dcash29 said:
I think people are stupid for even thinking about it.
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I can understand the feeling that you need to get away and have a nice holiday. I'd love one. I do understand that feeling but acting on it is a bit of a risk too far at the mo, for me anyway.
 
tijuana taxi said:
I get on a train from St Pancras and go to Lille for a few days.
Why is that any different to going from the same station for a break in Canterbury?

Obviously the above assumes travel is permitted between the two countries.
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When I said escape in this country I wasnt meaning stop overnight anywhere. We'd all like to go on holiday, however due to the soft lockdown and now protesting loonies who are not social distancing this thing isnt going away anytime soon..
 
dcash29 said:
When I said escape in this country I wasnt meaning stop overnight anywhere. We'd all like to go on holiday, however due to the soft lockdown and now protesting loonies who are not social distancing this thing isnt going away anytime soon..
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So the people protesting are an issue, but the flocks of people on the beaches and our own PM ignoring social distancing in the House of Commons aren't the issue?

Interesting.

It's certainly not going away here any time soon, as the Govt are pushing ahead with easing lockdown against their own scientific advisers advice, who've said it's not safe until the track and trace program is running properly.

We're still planning on going to Thailand in August. Why wouldn't we? Far less infections there, infact, if anything, they should stop us going there to protect themselves (although we've already had it so hopefully immune now)
 
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We had a company questionnaire sent round yesterday regarding going back to the office. Many of the questions started with "When the government announce that it is safe to do so..." will you feel comfortable using the office? will you feel comfortable using public transport? how many days do you want to be in the office each week? etc.

In the comments field at the end I had to caveat my answers with a general concern that when the government say that it is safe, that does not necessarily mean that it is safe.
 
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