The virus. PPE. Part 1

Status
Not open for further replies.
Donnie said:
Again if you contain all the medical staff as you suggest and an outbreak happens within that specialist group of people, the death rate will exponentially increase.
Click to expand...
Allowing the staff to go home at the end of the shift will not reduce the chances of an outbreak within the hospital, it will actually increase it as you are risking them taking infection into the hospital everytime they return.
Like I said it is simple logic.
A city of portakabins in the hospital car parks can be used to house the staff between shifts meaning that their is no possibility of them spreading the virus outside of the hospital and no chance of them bringing infection in.
You have provided a link to 2 NHS staff now on ventilators, who knows how many people they have infected between getting the virus and requiring treatment.
 
mex said:
Here's another low-life, looks a tadd reptilian too.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...irZ00sayDePkSY2O8IWMr7T749pOQHieja-aUzBtV628s
Click to expand...
“A Downing Street spokesperson said: “This is a highly defamatory fabrication which was not put to No10 by the Sunday Times before publication. The article also includes a series of apparent quotes from meetings which are invented.””
But as the very wise M. R-D said, they would say that anyway. Thing is, whether he said or not it sounds like him and is the sort of thing he says :D:D:D.
 
nilagin said:
Allowing the staff to go home at the end of the shift will not reduce the chances of an outbreak within the hospital, it will actually increase it as you are risking them taking infection into the hospital everytime they return.
Like I said it is simple logic.
A city of portakabins in the hospital car parks can be used to house the staff between shifts meaning that their is no possibility of them spreading the virus outside of the hospital and no chance of them bringing infection in.
You have provided a link to 2 NHS staff now on ventilators, who knows how many people they have infected between getting the virus and requiring treatment.
Click to expand...

While your last sentence is relevant to any outbreak or infection control, the rest is simply wrong. But you go ahead and believe that you are right and all the medical research, pandemic models, evidence based practice is wrong.
 
LCPete said:
I’ve said this before but I just don’t get the thing with panic buying bog roll
I read somewhere that the factory in the uk that makes it has enough raw materials in stock now for a long time there’s no chance at all of stocks running out it’s just that idiots are buying it quicker than it can be delivered to the shops
Click to expand...
I suspect there isn’t much panic buying of bog roll compared with other things it’s just that it’s very bulky despite its low weight so an increased demand (and they already sell a lot judging by the space allotted to it) causes shortage.
If you remember, we remainders planned to buy extra bog roll for the original Brexit day as it was calculated the easiest product to bring a shortage to. I did my bit but the day never came — I guess I know how those End-of-the-World cultists feel when their chosen day passes :).
 
Donnie said:
While your last sentence is relevant to any outbreak or infection control, the rest is simply wrong. But you go ahead and believe that you are right and all the medical research, pandemic models, evidence based practice is wrong.
Click to expand...
Show me how it is wrong then. Simplest way of preventing further infection spreading is to fully contain it, that means nobody leaves or enters until it is gone. Models and simulations are just b******t, because they don't a count for everything. Just one slip up, no matter how tiny the risk is all it takes to undo it.
 
Story on the decisions that led to the current policy in the Sunday Times (paywalled) below. As widely reported elsewhere, the turning point was the report from Neil Ferguson at Imperial, predicting a quarter of a million dead if the government continuned with a laissez-faire 'mitigation' strategy. Previously, various news reports had suggested that the government were working with a central estimate of 100,000 dead, which appears to have been fine with people like Dominic Cummings.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ain-and-changed-the-nation-for-ever-spz6sc9vb

'The meeting that will change British society for a generation took place on the evening of Thursday, March 12. That was when the strategic advisory group of experts (Sage in Whitehall parlance), the government’s committee of scientists and medics, gathered to examine modelling from experts at Imperial College London and other institutions.
The results were shattering. A week earlier, councils had been warned to expect about 100,000 deaths from Covid-19. Now Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer, and Sir Patrick Vallance, the chief scientific adviser, realised the estimates were wrong.
“Unmitigated, the death number was 510,000,” a senior figure said. “Mitigated we were told it was going to be 250,000. Once you see a figure of take no further action and a quarter of a million people die, the question you ask is, ‘What action?’” Another insider said: “There was a collision between the science and reality.”
Ministers had been on notice that drastic action might be needed since the virus first emerged in China’s Wuhan province in December. In January, Whitty told the cabinet: “It either stays in China or it will get everywhere.” For two months the government had time to prepare, but Johnson’s instincts were to resist a life-changing crackdown. “There was a lot of talk about how this was just a bit of flu,” one senior Tory recalled.
Dominic Cummings, the prime minister’s senior aide, became convinced that Britain would be better able to resist a lethal second wave of the disease next winter if Whitty’s prediction that 60% to 80% of the population became infected was right and the UK developed “herd immunity”.
At a private engagement at the end of February, Cummings outlined the government’s strategy. Those present say it was “herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad”.
At the Sage meeting on March 12, a moment now dubbed the “Domoscene conversion”, Cummings changed his mind. In this “penny-drop moment”, he realised he had helped set a course for catastrophe. Until this point, the rise in British infections had been below the European average. Now they were above it and on course to emulate Italy, where the picture was bleak. A minister said: “Seeing what was happening in Italy was the galvanising force across government.”
By Friday, March 13, Cummings had become the most outspoken advocate of a tough crackdown. “Dominic himself had a conversion,” a senior Tory said. “He’s gone from ‘herd immunity and let the old people die’, to ‘let’s shut down the country and the economy.’”

...

Whitty and Vallance began their own press conferences at the end of the week amid concern that some of Johnson’s pronouncements — including a claim that they could “turn the tide” within 12 weeks — were not grounded in evidence. “Some of the experts are appalled by some of his claims,” a Whitehall source said. A Tory aide said: “Boris looks haunted. It’s like when George W Bush came in thinking he was going to be the education-reforming president and had to deal with the war on terror.” Another senior Tory said: “Boris is shellshocked.”'
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Respectfully, most of my ordinary landscape daytrips had involved zero contact with anyone anywhere near destination. I am personally much more worried about openly sneezing local fauna in LIDL right next door.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with that, but it doesn't contradict the fundamental need to avoid transporting the virus around the country, or even your local area, hence the government's advice on essential travel only. At the moment, stopping the virus spreading is the only weapon we have.

Less travel also has the additional implications of probably reducing road traffic accidents and freeing up some additional NHS resources.
 
Sadly if this is happening in London, then many many more WILL die.

View: https://BANNED/dinosofos/status/1241697657690734593?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1241697657690734593&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fembed.scribblelive.com%2Fwidgets%2Fembed%2Fpost.aspx%3Fpost-id%3D1186653682
 
nilagin said:
Difference is there is every chance the people at the beach won't have the virus to pass it on, whilst there is a much higher probability that people in the hospital will be more likely to come into contact with the virus.
Click to expand...
That's not unlike allowing people to drive in rural areas with a higher blood/alcohol limit than city drivers as there's less chance that they'll hit another vehicle.

If I was going to invite someone around for dinner tonight, I'd feel safer with a nurse than someone with sand between their toes.
 
Hope it does not happen but

Some schools closed and essential workers kids attending one or 2 schools in local area. Kids get infected, pass onto parents and lot of essential workers in local area infected.
 
nilagin said:
Show me how it is wrong then. Simplest way of preventing further infection spreading is to fully contain it, that means nobody leaves or enters until it is gone. Models and simulations are just b******t, because they don't a count for everything. Just one slip up, no matter how tiny the risk is all it takes to undo it.
Click to expand...

Nope, you're just being an angry and argumentative and think you know more than the experts and people who are actually on the front line of this.
So, rather than @Cobra or @Marc having to step in and moderate my comments I'll simply end with

full
 
Canon Bob said:
That's not unlike allowing people to drive in rural areas with a higher blood/alcohol limit than city drivers as there's less chance that they'll hit another vehicle.

If I was going to invite someone around for dinner tonight, I'd feel safer with a nurse than someone with sand between their toes.
Click to expand...
But the probability is the nurse is more likely to have the infection, because not only will they have been mixing with the general public, but also working within an environment where the infection maybe prevalent. Just because you go to the beach, you don't have physically get close to other people.
 
Donnie said:
Nope, you're just being an angry and argumentative and think you know more than the experts and people who are actually on the front line of this.
So, rather than @Cobra or @Marc having to step in and moderate my comments I'll simply end with

full
Click to expand...
Firstly it's 2020.
Secondly I am not angry or being argumentative.
Thirdly, just because I don't work in a medical field doesn't mean I
can't apply simple and obvious logic to different situations.
You are just being pretty because you are unable to understand or don't wish to believe the logic.
 
nilagin said:
But the probability is the nurse is more likely to have the infection, because not only will they have been mixing with the general public, but also working within an environment where the infection maybe prevalent. Just because you go to the beach, you don't have physically get close to other people.
Click to expand...

The 'possibly' infected nurse will no doubt be fastidiously following advice to minimise his/her risk whilst the beachgoer has clearly ignored the advice.
 
nilagin said:
Firstly it's 2020.
Secondly I am not angry or being argumentative.
Thirdly, just because I don't work in a medical field doesn't mean I
can't apply simple and obvious logic to different situations.
You are just being pretty because you are unable to understand or don't wish to believe the logic.
Click to expand...

Thanks for calling me pretty :)

But moving on, it's all well and good applying logic but you make the mistake of assuming you have a correct base to apply it, you don't.
But again, repeating your points and attacking me and stating I dont wish to understand or believe it is simply nonsensical. Im not calling myself an expert in epidemiology etc but I have been in the nursing field since 1989 caring for a range of people over those years and one (of many) constants is the rigourous infection control measures we learn, adopt, revisit etc to keep up with changes and ensure practice is evidence based. In that time span there are many many other dangers we have been fighting such as MRSA, various flus including MERS, avian and swine, enterococcus, e-coli etc etc but this is certainly one of the worst in living memory.
Again evidence based practice globally applies and doctors, nurses, midwives, hca, odp etc and all other clinical staff are well aware of how to properly adopt procedures, even to the point of being told how to wash uniforms etc etc.

Your arrogance that you know better is astoundingly insulting to the healthcare profession.
 
Canon Bob said:
The 'possibly' infected nurse will no doubt be fastidiously following advice to minimise his/her risk whilst the beachgoer has clearly ignored the advice.
Click to expand...
The nurse won't be coming to dinner then will they.
 
nog said:
Hope it does not happen but

Some schools closed and essential workers kids attending one or 2 schools in local area. Kids get infected, pass onto parents and lot of essential workers in local area infected.
Click to expand...
If they are essential workers they will probably get infected anyway via their work environment.
 
Dave70D said:
Sadly if this is happening in London, then many many more WILL die.

View: https://BANNED/dinosofos/status/1241697657690734593?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1241697657690734593&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fembed.scribblelive.com%2Fwidgets%2Fembed%2Fpost.aspx%3Fpost-id%3D1186653682
Click to expand...

That’s the height of madness.

Why on earth non essential businesses are open is utterly beyond me. It only encourages people to go out, contrary to the governments advice.

Contain/Delay are plainly not working, so why not go straight to full on lockdown? Combine that with appropriate, testing, contact tracing and we have a chance of minimising the dreadful effects of this virus. I cannot see the point of any intermediate step between where we are now and lock down. We’re inevitably heading to lock down albeit at the most lethargic pace imaginable.

If I remember correctly, Rory Stewart said over a week ago that decisive action was needed immediately.

I suspect that because of this governments, hesitation, indecision and sheer inability to act positively and quickly, more people are going to die than would have otherwise been the case.
 
Donnie said:
what happened?
Click to expand...
My son was told his child would not be permitted to attend school as my son could stay at home and look after him.
 
Donnie said:
Thanks for calling me pretty :)

Your arrogance that you know better is astoundingly insulting to the healthcare profession.
Click to expand...
I didn't, autocorrect did.

There are so many holes in your processes, the fact that you have to take care of cleaning your own uniforms, speaks volumes.
If the infection is serious enough to enforce lockdowns, then the lockdowns or restrictions need to concern all.

Just because you have been doing something since 89, it doesn't mean things can't be improved upon or others can't see room for improvement.

If you feel insulted, that is nothing more than your insecurities, so stop trying to lay the blame at my door.
 
Primark and Timpsons are closing all their shops until further notice.

If these retailers can see the futility and danger of being open, why can’t the government?

Rather than being bounced inevitably into a decision they are going to have to make at some point, let’s have some leadership and close all non essential businesses now.
 
Donnie said:
Thanks for calling me pretty :)

But moving on, it's all well and good applying logic but you make the mistake of assuming you have a correct base to apply it, you don't.
But again, repeating your points and attacking me and stating I dont wish to understand or believe it is simply nonsensical. Im not calling myself an expert in epidemiology etc but I have been in the nursing field since 1989 caring for a range of people over those years and one (of many) constants is the rigourous infection control measures we learn, adopt, revisit etc to keep up with changes and ensure practice is evidence based. In that time span there are many many other dangers we have been fighting such as MRSA, various flus including MERS, avian and swine, enterococcus, e-coli etc etc but this is certainly one of the worst in living memory.
Again evidence based practice globally applies and doctors, nurses, midwives, hca, odp etc and all other clinical staff are well aware of how to properly adopt procedures, even to the point of being told how to wash uniforms etc etc.

Your arrogance that you know better is astoundingly insulting to the healthcare profession.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you are too close to the problem to be open to other ideas?
 
Dave70D said:
Already put the #2 Twitter one up, but imo it`s about time the UK went to lockown to stop these people from killing others.
Click to expand...

They sure as hell need a severe fright to bring them to their senses.
 
Donnie said:
12078032-16x9-xlarge.jpg
Click to expand...
Going by how much room there is in the foreground, chances are the rest of the beach is the same. It just looks packed but a plan view could provide an entirely different impression.
 
Uncle Fester said:
Primark and Timpsons are closing all their shops until further notice.

If these retailers can see the futility and danger of being open, why can’t the government?

Rather than being bounced inevitably into a decision they are going to have to make at some point, let’s have some leadership and close all non essential businesses now.
Click to expand...
My future daughter in law is manager in a Clark's shoe shop at a retail park, they have closed too. Don't know if other branches have too.
 
nilagin said:
My future daughter in law is manager in a Clark's shoe shop at a retail park, they have closed too. Don't know if other branches have too.
Click to expand...

For her sake and your family’s sake, I’m pleased.

Hopefully all these businesses closing will have a domino effect and other businesses that are hesitating will also close.

It’s appalling that shoe shops are more forward thinking than our Prime Minister.
 
Last edited:
nilagin said:
I didn't, autocorrect did.

There are so many holes in your processes, the fact that you have to take care of cleaning your own uniforms, speaks volumes.
If the infection is serious enough to enforce lockdowns, then the lockdowns or restrictions need to concern all.

Just because you have been doing something since 89, it doesn't mean things can't be improved upon or others can't see room for improvement.

If you feel insulted, that is nothing more than your insecurities, so stop trying to lay the blame at my door.
Click to expand...

You completely ignore where i talk about continual evidence based practice as it suits your now obvious denial of anything other than your "logic".

I never said I felt insulted, I said your attitude is insulting. Only compounded by your pathetic attempt at calling me insecure, which Im not. Im well trained for my role, Im not unafraid believe me I don't want coronavirus, nor do I want my patients to get it which is why Im so careful from an infection control point of view, but I think I've laboured that point now several times and am just repeating myself and know you will yet again ignore it as it doesn't suit your narrative.

MatBin said:
Perhaps you are too close to the problem to be open to other ideas?
Click to expand...

Ummmmm seriously? Im too close to caring for my patients that what? Im ignoring all the training and medical advice on how to care for them and help stop the spread? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

nilagin said:
Going by how much room there is in the foreground, chances are the rest of the beach is the same. It just looks packed but a plan view could provide an entirely different impression.
Click to expand...

And there's that denial again because it doesn't suit your narrative. :cautious:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top