1. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    Eight photographers at a league two match Accrington v Mansfield and nothing used in any of the nationals this morning...

    OK not all on the wire but still ..

    Mine are safe for the local paper so guaranteed published and paid.. Someone from mansfield local paper same as me and club photographers for each team..... Eight is overkill for a league 2 game with two shall we say uninspiring teams..
     
  2. fhoneill

    fhoneill

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    I've experienced similar recently. I usually have a look through the papers over the next few days and on a good week half of the photographers have been published.

    Have seen some bizarre stuff recently too. Went to one game where there were four photographers, all on the sign-in sheet, shooting for the one club. Given the level it was at and the status of the club I don't believe for one second they were paying for three shooters.

    I've always maintained that I'd rather do as I did yesterday and take a local amateur level game where I've negotiated prices up front than a professional league level match where something like the above can happen. Waste of time for half the guys there by the sounds of it.
     
  3. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    Oh yeagh I will always make more money from grass roots than pro.. but I need to do certain amount of jobs for paper per week.. so get paid :)
     
  4. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    9 nine! photographers for a league 2 game on sat... 6 on the wire while game on... Only one national paper publishes pics from lg 2 and then its pics or pic from maybe 2 or 3 matches from 20 odd.... so I reckon maybe 3 of us got paid on sat...... i was going to say unbelievable but.....
     
  5. GooGaBu

    GooGaBu

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    Photographing football at any level in England is getting to be a nice 'hobby' ;-) Or maybe your Accrington are hitting the big time now... or the other explanation is that they've all come to see the famous Kipax !! :)
     
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  6. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    haha international weekend may have a lot to do with it :) 3 home volunteer photographers not on wire... Me for local paper (paid) leaves 5 extra.. You would presume one away club and maybe one away paper so that's three agencies?
     
  7. asterix

    asterix

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    That's not a lot on spec though really is it. 3 shooting on spec. I'd say the 3 club shooters is overkill if anything
     
  8. DemiLion

    DemiLion

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    There's a rather obvious reason for that happening this weekend.
     
  9. GooGaBu

    GooGaBu

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    I know I did few ‘on spec’ jobs years ago... not for long though.
    And it really did make me think.. which other jobs you go and work 5 hours in... and only know afterwards whether you will get paid or not?
     
  10. GordonM

    GordonM

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    I’m afraid I was very naughty when a Premier League side came to the League 2 side I worked for hoping for an upset and sacking of manager. Fleet Streets finest started asking me why they couldn’t sit where they liked so the could capture the manager’s demise in glorious wide angle close up, rather than being stuck behind the goals. I did point out if they came every week like I did they would be able to. Especially frustrating was that after the ‘wrong’ result not one national used a single picture anyway.
     
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  11. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    I love it when they (the big boys) come to accrington for a night match and even with a 1dx they are nearly crying... and there pics are darker than the pitch..
     
  12. GordonM

    GordonM

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    Been to worse.....
    Scarborough for an FA Cup match, blown lamps on the floodlights - you could see the dark patches in the corners with the naked eye. Convey Island in December. There’s loads more!
     
  13. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    Been to them all.. including canvey island for a night match 12 years ago..worse lights and even worse camera equipment :)
     
  14. Bluesman graham

    Bluesman graham

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    I have to say the rise of Huddersfield Town to the dizzy highs of the Premiership has opened my eyes to a fight for a seat lol.
    ,
    I have a dilemma though as I cover for the local paper & so cannot "put down my monopod" as I don't know the direction of play! they do of course usually follow a plan but twice this season have "been turned" & a mad scramble ensues.

    I cannot say it's all bad as I now get to meet a largely superb bunch of guys I use to only see once a blue moon :). but the group has gone from 5-10 snappers to 15-20+ each game!!.
     
  15. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    Well..the opposite tonight.... No club photographers from accrington or guiseley ...just one yorkshire paper, one agency and me for lancashire paper...1st round proper of fa cup replay... was amazed at the lack of photographers for a change..
     
  16. Gogster

    Gogster

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    Darryl
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    Similar in rugby.

    Worse for live music.

    The scene is saturated for the number of shots being used.
     
  17. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    A couple of weeks ago I went to Coventry v Accrington.. got pics used in the sun sat and sunday.. thats the first this season :(

    then last week I went to luton v accrington... Accrington scored in the 93rd minute of the game to take top spot off luton in there own back yard.. i was the only person at the accrington end.. I got the goal and he ran towards me and some manic scenes of celebrations .. fans staff and players... I was the only one to get these shots.......

    the national papers went with a pic of the goalkeeper rubbing the scorers head.. just stood there..... unbelievable :(

    the club now have FOUR volunteer photogrpahers not three as when i started this thread.. NONE of them went to Luton so I have now sold a set of pics to the club and the local paper....

    All the other photogrpaher get the back of these pics... the celes bottom left are the best IMHO :) PS Paper chopped there feet off not me..

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
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  18. shapeshifter

    shapeshifter

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    The big agencies have done some sort of deal with the nationals to prevent or lessen the use of freelancers (small agencies).That is why you will see crap, rubbish shot's published when you sent them spot on goal and celebration pics.

    Last year the big agencies Getty,AA,AP where well really angry at the amount of pics published in the nationals by freelancers so they acted.

    I know at least 4 freelance togs that have no pics at all published this season in nationals who were quite successful last season. Three of them have sold their gear and packed up.

    I cannot find out the full details of what went on but I keep pumping for info or earwigging whenever the big boys (well think they are) are around. They have shut up moaning this season because they know a deal has been cut.

    I am suprised at the nationals crumbling in to the big agencies!
     
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  19. davidy233

    davidy233

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    Ah conspiracy theories :(
     
  20. shapeshifter

    shapeshifter

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    Unfortunatley not.:LOL:

    If you have some other explaination for the lack of freelance togs getting published please post them. I am more than happy to read them. :eek:
     
  21. purpleclouds

    purpleclouds

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    When you say freelance, what do you mean? There's very few actual freelancers these days, everyone works for an agency in one manner or another.
     
  22. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    people like me and anyone else with a licence... theres a quite a few of us

    Didn't bother taking my laptop on saturday accy v fgr... someone from pro sports there so it wouldnt have mattered what i got.. deals done :(

    i can make a living as a sports photogrpaher without nationals thank goodness :)
     
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  23. purpleclouds

    purpleclouds

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    Are there really that many of yourself? Whenever I venture to a lower league match these days, everyone I speak to 'works' for one of the 'little' agencies.. never met one on their own licence yet! Always try and scan the photographer list or the passes as they're dished out too.
     
  24. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    haha I know a couple but dont meet many i do admit.. I ahve seen the list of licence holders and theres quite a few that arnt agencies (well you know what i mean) they may just do club and local paper? as indeed i am now gonna wind back to ? :)
     
  25. shapeshifter

    shapeshifter

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    Kipax has given an answer but I shall elaborate further.

    There are many photographers who take photos for local papers of the local team and have a licence of there own because they get the required number of photos in thier local paper to qualify for the EFL licence.

    They can submit and do to the nationals at the same time as doing the job for their local paper.Like Kipax.

    Those are the freelancers that have really struggled to get published in the nationals this season.

    Even the small agencies are now struggling because of the changes at the begining of the 2017-18 season.

    As I said the big agencies were getting well and truely PO with the amount of freelancers getting published over them. I have heard and had expressed to myself the disquite that had developed with the likes of Togs from, Getty, action Images,Back Page Images and Associated Press.

    The reason they where concerned is a simple one really. There (big agencies) business modle was not sustainable at all when one considers that a large majority of their Togs were travelling in many accassions 100 mile there and 100 mile back to matches. The average must have been about 80 mile round trip. How can big agencies sustain such costs when one considers that the Togs are full time and the fuel and travel expenses have to be covered.

    As apposed to smaller agencies that employed no one and the Togs paid for their own fuel and expenses. Most staying local and there being a lot of them to cover matches. Many of who where using top camera equipment comparable to the big agencyTogs.

    Just the simple maths of the matter meant the big agencies had to do something about it.

    Freelancers and small agencies are still a threat to the big agencies and I think that if the press decide to revert back to the level playing field that existed up until the begining of last season the big agencies will have to remodel their business plans.

    I think the fact that the big agencies have the hold on the premiership was what gave them the leaver to put presure on the nationals to favour them in the first instance no matter what. Even at the lower leagues having already tied up the premiership with contracts to supply.

    But the nationals will call the tune at the end of the day and I suspect that they asked for a cut in rates from the big agencies in order to push the freelancers out and to only use freelancers where no big agency pics exist (the nationals are publishing head shots from players who have scored goals from big agencies over cracking shots of the goal being scored by freelancers).

    If anyone knows different to my conspiracy theory. Please go right ahead that's what the forums for. :bat:
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
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  26. DemiLion

    DemiLion

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    Because most of their photographers aren't full time staffers perhaps?


    You seem to think that there's some massively engineered conspiracy taking place. There isn't.

    Getty, Reuters (AI) and to a certain extent PA don't give a damn about publications, they care about money and they get that from subscription fees.

    (Most) Papers run a basic traffic light system for image usage:

    Green: pre-paid/free - wire agencies and general public submissions.

    Amber: May cost at a fixed, pre-agreed rate - generally Rex.

    Red: Full cost/space rate - all others.

    To be used as:

    Green - use at any time

    Amber - use but under advisement

    Red - may only be used with specific permission.


    That's been in place for donkey's years.
     
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  27. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    Apart from using the word tog which is really annoying haha.. sorry :) i think your absoloutly spot on.. 100% . i am out there doing exactly as you have said and talking to people and seeing exactly the same.. it would be nice if we went back to a level playing field but i cant see it.. What amazes me is how they are charging so litle for photogrpahs and paying the photogrpahers? .. i don't get it :(

    i ahve to admit I have decided they win and given up on it.. if anyone lets me know its gone back to normal and we all have a chance then great.. but anyone with a pair of eyes can see whats happened at mailonline wiht only a few agencies being used.. the printed papers have gone the same way..... seriously without showing off... those 93rd minute winners for little accringotn to take top spot off luton and i was the only one to get them.. sent in straight away and they use a pic of goalkeeper patting goal scorers head with no emotion just stood there.. why? if theres a pic editoor looking for the best pics why has he used that from a big agency and not mine ?..i ow my pics are arriving.. there just not being chosen.. because i want the full amount


    i see people on other private photogrpahers forums sharing there REX payments.. 4 quid for a full page. less then 2 quid for usage... it would take them all season to earn what i got from my last sun newspaper usage...
     
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  28. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    eeerm.. I ahve sat next to getty/action images.. got identical pictures and been published over them in nationals.... last season.. so ?
     
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  29. shapeshifter

    shapeshifter

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    I would keep sending goal shots and good celebrations Kipax because if nothing else it may,yes I did say may make the nationals realise the rubbish they are having to publish due to having such a restricted agrrement. Who knows the nationals might review their position at the begining of next season.
     
  30. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    i did wonder ... does anyone actually look and think.. this is what we could have had? :( somehow i doubt it... I know that sounds a bit big headed but I know if i get a perfect goal and cele shot and they use dross then theres somehtign wrong...
     
  31. Pound Coin

    Pound Coin

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    A
    Ah, that would have been Shane, I guess.
     
  32. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    haha yes it was :)

    and for the record... its the agencies not the photogrpahers... same when getty screwed everyone wiht womens football.. hate getty as a company.. some decent guys workign for them though...

    and i aint just saying that cus shane is bigger than me haha :)
     
  33. DemiLion

    DemiLion

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    So... great news! :p

    I was definitely making a generalisation, but there's no grand conspiracy going on.

    (Apart from Rex that is!)
     
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  34. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    yeagh i should see that... i blame the sunday night drinks :)
     
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  35. DemiLion

    DemiLion

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    But as mentioned in the past, that wasn't Getty's fault, it was the FA's.

    The FA made the decision to pay Getty to provide and distribute what were effectively free to use PR images of the WPL.

    You can't blame them for taking the money & job when offered.

    I'm no Getty fan but it's not fair to blame them for something that the sport's governing body devised.
     
  36. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

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    My point was... no matter what i say or think about agencies.. rightly or wrongly......thats what it is.. the agencies.. not the photogrpahers...
     
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  37. DemiLion

    DemiLion

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    To be honest, if you want something to fret about in 2018, it's the merger of the Northern & Shell titles with Trinity Mirror that'll have the worst effect on the industry. Not some mythical deal between the wire agencies and the proprietors.
     
  38. purpleclouds

    purpleclouds

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    Thanks for the lesson in how the industry works, I have been making a living from it for almost 10 years!

    That said, all the local club photographers (certainly in the EFL) around Manchester submit via various agencies.. why? The agencies are happy to take them because it proves to be a better selling point, being able to source lower league coverage but with none of the overheads of sending their own staff/established freelancers.

    Newspapers are relatively small fry for the big agencies, who all have bigger contracts with the leagues, sponsors, etc.. Getty provide the Premier League, for example. Believe me, the PL aren't paying a paltry £40 a picture. Travel expenses pale in insignificance in the running of a 'big agency'.

    Simple fact of the matter is, is that the cream generally rises to the top. I always have a look at what the local photographers have submitted from matches I attend, either via their club website, or subsequent agency. A lot of these photographers (though granted, not all - and certainly not Tony!) fail to capture the key events that make the newspapers. Goals, red card fouls etc. Exposure all over the place. Generally.. crap.
     
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  39. shapeshifter

    shapeshifter

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    The post is for everyone who frequents the forum. It's not a lesson for you. Seems like a completely unnecessary remark.:thinking:
     
  40. DemiLion

    DemiLion

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    If the post is for "everyone who frequents the forum", a bit of accuracy might not go amiss?
     
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