Were these photographers actually doing anything wrong?...

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Peter
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On twitter I follow rarebirdalert....just out of interest then this tweet came on my timeline

View: https://BANNED/AllanConlin/status/1217440166895345664


Chorus of condemnation from the birders, plus insults. Apart from the photographers being in a public area and no less than about 8-10 metres from the birds (the ones behind being close), not encroaching, one stood up gently whereupon the birds flew away. It's a public beach - if the birds were threatened they would've moved away to the right (out of frame)...I've actually been closer to wading birds...

Is this why birders and photographers are at each others throats all the time?
 
It's probably not the best behaviour. The birds need to feed for as long as possible before the tide forces them elsewhere. By moving on to the beach they are blocking off potential feeding time and also causing disturbance when they move.

I don't know the site but I'm guessing the prom isn't much further away. However the birds are probably habituated to humans on the prom but not on the beach.

Having said that birders aren't exclusively saintly in their behaviour either
 
It's the level of outrage that amuses me, I got my stick and had my poke, and they were even more inflamed.

I know 'some' photographers are inconsiderate, some are ignorant or unaware but compared to some birders and guides who rely on bird recordings to flush out birds just to get a tick in their book or general members of the public who might walk right past or let their dogs loose on the beach I agree with everyone that not everyone is a saint.
 
Trapped feeding waders??? LOL!

I find that a lot of "birders" are more/less just animal lovers. They like seeing the birds, but they don't spend the hours studying them and learning their behaviors that serious wildlife photographers do. They often have opinions that have no/little basis in fact.
From what I see in the video the photographers did absolutely nothing that put the birds in any danger or was harmful in any way... small flocks of waders launch as a group quite often, and for no apparent reason.
 
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The title/gist of that article is nonsense... a cat attacked it and caused injuries that resulted in it dying.
If a bird is so fatigued/malnourished that it cannot relocate (i.e. just leave the area), then it needs taken to a rehabber because it's probably going to die on it's own... in fact, if that's the case there's probably something wrong with the bird and it will die at the rehabbers anyway.
 
The title/gist of that article is nonsense... a cat attacked it and caused injuries that resulted in it dying.
If a bird is so fatigued/malnourished that it cannot relocate (i.e. just leave the area), then it needs taken to a rehabber because it's probably going to die on it's own... in fact, if that's the case there's probably something wrong with the bird and it will die at the rehabbers anyway.
The guys were chasing the bird through people's gardens ... inconsiderate to both bird and residents.
 
Spending quite a lot of time over at Flamborough and being a member of the bird obs, I've seen this reaction towards photographers fairly often. What I don't understand, is how they consider ringing to be perfectly acceptable.

Along the cliff tops ringers position mist nets, migrant birds that have flown thousands of miles hit these nets and can be left hanging upside down for up to 30 minutes.
They are stuffed into bags, man handled, ringed and if a rarity, its put out through watsapp so birders can turn up to see/watched it released.

Then there's ringing at the nest boxes. Turn up, bang on the box to scare the adult bird away, again, stuff the chicks into a bag, then ring them.........how can any of this not stress the bird more than anyone approaching a healthy bird to take photos?? :thinking:

Now before I go any further, I'm not exactly anti-ringing, I know a lot of vital information is learned from ringing but I do think there's a lot of double standards going on.

As for the video, I know loads of birders into photography, they do exactly what these chaps were doing nearly everyday. Again, its just another case of someone spouting over the internet. I didn't read all the twitter posts but did see the one where the OP was asked if he'd said something to their face, his reply was 'no' due to recent surgery but he thought he'd show his bravery by taking a video and posting it on twitter :rolleyes:........what a tit! :LOL:
 
I think the real problem is the flocking behaviour of the photographers. Perhaps we could train eagles to break up the groups and chase them away? :naughty:
 
Guys is this assessment wrong.............

a couple of togs have put themselves down wind of a flock of waders and waited
At the onset of video their prescence has now spit the flock basically a proportion of the brids went in slightly deeper water around them(togs) and carried on feeding
without flight or fright
Flock 'o' birds always feed into the wind......... if they don't their feathers blow inside out :LOL: well they do it's LAW :LOL: Plus in an emergency the wind gives lift at take off immediate lift and the wind takes them away from danger at greater speed
The movement of the guy ( image maker) standing up has now rendered him a slight threat to the birds. It's a bit awkward, sure, but any of us can own that....... birder tog walker we all spook stuff when we stand it's somewhat inevitable. That bit is what he did wrong
The birds take flight use the wind to lift them away.
but too my reckoning, are so little bothered they then do what??
Turn back towards the togs and use the natural flock instinct ,ie safety in numbers to rejoin the main flock in a fly past. If they were really bothered they would have kept going not turned back
to presumably keep feeding not shown in vid


I don't do twiter I've read the thread, it's geniunely shocking to me........... bewildering shocking

If anyone can give me a reasoned debate against the above then I'm up for that . To me the photographers did little wrong bar standing up ...............instead of trying to be lower smaller less of a threat to the advancing flock.
If the last post, or thereabouts, in that lunacy is correct, the tog raises funds for RSPB and obviously loves wildife,!!


For me :
there may be a slight error of judgment here in the lad standing up. But c'mon, learning those skills is no easy thing we all make mistakes !! But for folks to be like this... so horrible( I'm trying to be deft I'm a builder) when they all supposedly care about wildlife is feakin NUTZ . and if the guy with the vid had of shown me more I'd lay a bet the birds landed with the rest and carried of feeding ,so no harm done any which way. The whole thing is BONKERS

Andrew togs flock behaviour is tricky huh.......................... when it hits one's own little patch. UGG it's a circus . What does one do walk away from something I've tried to make a half decent frame of for years That I found the old way or become part of it. I have adopted a sort of squirrel meself away and try and ignore it rather than be honorable and admit I'm no match for it . Something is lost though, wildlife should be individuals and a beastie not hoards and beastie If I was half the tog most are here I'd probably have my fix/sorry image:p by now, and be considering other subjects .

That said ,I might well have had one of my best days today possibly?????? my best images of said subject I should be a bit ecstatic . i'm not saying an amazing frame just probably as good as I've made. But that's cool enough right ........... 4/5 or so years at it. and these are up there that's enough to celebrate. Yet all I can see is the circus the images barely registered yet I've waited so long to not screw those chances completely. Ha ha it's really weird Andrew !!

I guess it's the double edged sword of the web: we all look at that bit more, but somehow we see a lot less
:(
So yeah please, PLEASE bring on the eagles, failing that I'll take boar lynx ( OMG especially lynx:D) wolves anything really apart from polar bears,they just eat everything:)

We probably do need some degree of natural selection in wildlife photographers in the UK . Polar bears aren't really cricket I don't really think we quite have the skill set

It might help though :LOL:

Pete sorry for the long ramble Andrew's post hit a nerve . But truly I'm genuinely stunned by the twitter thread WOW It might genuinely be the first thread I've ever read there .I know about it and just naturally avoid I've watched that vid a good few times I just can't see it!! What ever they are going on about is flying miles over me!!

sorry for wafflin:oops: :$

stu
 
While not exactly best behaviour, I fail to see any real harm done. I don't know that beach but if it's like mine for every tog there but be 50 dogs chasing everything in sight. The bird will be used to moving to a quieter spot every few minutes.
OK I wouldn't do that myself, but it's a public place and you'll always get someone wanting a closer look.
 
Guys is this assessment wrong.............
I don't even think that standing up was wrong in any way...
It's not like the birds were constantly being bumped (chased/flushed) to where they would leave the area or modify their behavior. And they do not appear to be a vulnerable species nor in a sensitive location.

If you want to avoid disturbing wildlife you should just stay in your house; otherwise it is unavoidable.

OK I wouldn't do that myself,...
I would in that situation...
 
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How about they get outraged about actual serious issues? Lower forms of life...
That might involve a mirror mate and a cold hard look!! I'm really stunned by this is it NUTZ

I don't even think that standing up was wrong in any way...
It's not like the birds were constantly being bumped (chased/flushed) to where they would leave the area or modify their behavior. And they do not appear to be a vulnerable species nor in a sensitive location.

If you want to avoid disturbing wildlife you should just stay in your house; otherwise it is unavoidable.


I would in that situation...
That's fair enough Steven. I guess the reply is twofold The standing was the only part of this I could possibly see that "others" might view as disturbance. I guess I'm trying to see the other side of the story and really struggling. Second, in that position I would have stayed put let the birds decide how to pass and then move on. Steven I can't see any harm done to the wellfare of the bidz. None what so ever!!

But, if I would have stood up at that point and got that reaction (It's a reaction many many animals and birds give :. We have suddenly assumed the shape of an apex predator that pretty much kills everything it's an, or should be, an expected reaction I'd have kicked me own butt.

Mate that isn't a judgement on them ................it's something one learns. The lads got some images and switched off (to me) from their subjects , They stood up and provoked a slight flight response. There was no harm done to the waders there is no reason for that twitter thread and the abuse . To me that is the point the togs became vunerable. .
 
Been a problem of disturbance at Hoylake (the beach in the video) and along the Dee Estuary coast for sometime, hence why the wardens ask people not to get too close to the birds especially at high tide and generally stick to the promenade (same applies at Parkgate with the marsh), I have seen a photographer shift everything off the beach by the life boat station just because he wanted that killer shot (yes I did confront him and give him a mouth full when he finally got back to the foot path) during one of the organised high tide watches while we all trying to enjoy the spectacle from the promenade.
Ok dog walkers and the like are just if not more guilty of disturbing the birds but when it posted on the Dee Estuary web site etc (the advice going back well over ten years) to keep your distance when photographing/watching the birds its best to follow the advice, after all us photographers are meant to know better and should show some field craft, ok he might of got a wet leg/foot but he should have stayed low no need to have stood up, let the birds go past or craw waddle away if you need to leave .
Once spent the best part of 15 minutes crawling out to get in position (stopping every few metres so the birds got use to my presence) and then crawled back again not a single bird flushed I looked daft but no one could complain I disturbed the birds yes I got wet but the birds come first.
Yes I have seen/heard birders moaning about togs about poor field craft when they were practicing absolutely none (the togs were wearing green/camo and hunkered down into the under growth while he wore bright red and stood on a ridge line) while watching some local Shorties but there is always going to be conflict between the two groups, but you now even read arguments between birders and twitchers about organised flushes and surrounding bushes etc. What's the answer I don't know, but we as photographers just where ever possible need to understand/remember that sometimes we are going to go home empty handed and its better to do that than push our luck and get too close to the birds.

Tim.
 
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Tim
cheers,
your local knowledge helps paint a much clearer picture of what I'm trying to get a handle on Video being around 50 seconds long doesn't give a huge amount of info bar the birds behaviour relative to the image makers . I know nothing of the Dee bar what members here have told me. I didn't realise there were wardens and organised watches. I see a tiny bit now of why folks were upset I'm still bewildered though by that thread that's probably why I've stayed here so long . Ugg there are more constructive ways than slagging each other off to learn about birds. or beasties.

Tim, these divisions, these different groups, twitchers birders bird togs, it all flies over my head.

We all love nature we all have skills to teach and share, that would actually mean we would all be more articulate at not scaring or impacting our subjects adversely, tis a collective goal yet we shout at each other

meanwhile anything within a hundred yards is legging it:LOL:

Thanks for the post it makes things clearer.

Ha,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, folks at work think I'm a twitcher or a birder that's what they call me those are the words they use:D

ta muchly
 
No problem, 99.999etc% of photographers play by the rules they know that given a little patience and if the tide is higher enough the birds get pushed to you (at Hoylake, I tend to sit on the ramp at the Hoylake RNLI station or at the end of the road at Meols) so just sit tight have a natter and let the tide do the hard work, and even if its not that high by just by moving around the corner to West Kirby marine lake there is a high tide roost there and you can get all of the flight shots you want as the birds arrive to sit out the high tide.

I get called a twitcher myself by my work colleagues but consider myself to be just a humble bird watcher who tries his best at photography.

All the best

Tim.
 
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I have always gently walked at the low water mark (often a few feet into the sea). During 60 years of doing the same, I have NEVER experienced any bird in distress, or starving due to my proximity. In fact, they are so used to me, that they usually ignore me altogether. - I fail to see anything wrong with the video, apart from the fact that it has been used by a bunch of mis-informed , loony do-gooders to attack genuine photographers! :mad:


People, Children, Dogs etc, running at the birds, is of course a different matter!
 
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