A fear of bad lens copies

Adam_M

Adam_M

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Hey Everyone,

Very soon I'll be getting the Canon 24-70 2.8, yippie. However I'm deadly afraid of getting a bad copy, so I'm wondering how you guys deal with it when you think you've got a bad copy of a lens? This will probably be bought from warehouse express looking at current prices.

And I'm not talking about just when the AF is off a bit, I'm talking when it's one side is significantly softer than the other, or any other apparent issues,, something that can't be solved with micro adjustments.
 
If it's faulty, send it back.

If you're really paranoid go to a bricks and mortar shop and test the actual lens you are going to buy.
 
Buy from a shop so you can try it out there and then is probably the best bet

Are these rascally "bad copies" that commonplace, admittedly I did have one (Sigma 18-50mm) which was obviously faulty and went straight back for a refund, never had a dodgy Canon one though.
 
chances of a dodgy canon lens is about 1 in 300 I have read else where, I pondered for ages and finally bit the bullet and got a 10-22 pleased I did so buy and enjoy.
 
tijuana taxi said:
Buy from a shop so you can try it out there and then is probably the best bet

Are these rascally "bad copies" that commonplace, admittedly I did have one (Sigma 18-50mm) which was obviously faulty and went straight back for a refund, never had a dodgy Canon one though.
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At work we had to go through about four Canon 35mm F/1.4 lenses before each side was equal, BUT the needs at work (photogrammetry) are vastly different to anything I'll ever do. The issue is what happens to the lenses in transit from Japan.

Going to the bricks and mortar isn't actually a bad idea, Dale Photographic have it at the same price so I'll probably just do that! Their Canon 70-200 2.8 MK II price made me run away and I never bothered checking the 24-70 price.
 
REALLY?

it's a CANON £1k lens.

Go and take a few photos with it, you won't want to take it back. It'll be fine.

If it is wrong in any way at all, you won't notice it when you're shooting anything other than a test chart.

So no worries :)
 
It's all to do with tolerances. There will be a range of focus around 'perfect' for a lens the manufacturer will deem acceptable, similarly for the camera's AF system. If the lens you end up with and your camera are at opposite ends of the tolerances you may have an unacceptable system.
Swap it for another random lens out of the store room, who's tolerance is by chance more suited to your camera and you're happy. The shop sends the lens back to the manufacturer who test it and find it's within tolerance.
 
itsdavedotnet said:
REALLY?

it's a CANON £1k lens.

Go and take a few photos with it, you won't want to take it back. It'll be fine.

If it is wrong in any way at all, you won't notice it when you're shooting anything other than a test chart.

So no worries :)
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I really hope you're right, I'm obviously being utterly pedantic as usual. It definitely was the way with my 70-200 2.8 L IS when I had it about 5 years ago. It was pretty soft at the long end wide open but it never caused any problems in the real world, can't wait to get another! :)

I really should get a new job, being around gear like the Vexcel UltraCam-XP makes DSLR gear all look cheap... :bang:
 
A new disease, "Bad Copy Syndrome". People who read so much crap on forums that every time they want to buy a lens they panic that it might be a bad copy?!
 
Jackwow said:
A new disease, "Bad Copy Syndrome". People who read so much crap on forums that every time they want to buy a lens they panic that it might be a bad copy?!
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Yeah I agree, most of the bad copy stuff you read in forums is user error or people testing stuff beyond the capabilities it was ever designed for. It's called 'measurebating', where people spend more time 'testing' their gear and worrying about specs than they do taking photos.

I think there's two reasons for it, one group is people who are not really into 'photography' at all, they are into the gear. Don't get me wrong, I like gear too, but ill use any camera I have on hand if I have to.

The other group are people who are into photography but they are unhappy with their photos. Instead of working out what their doing wrong and trying to improve, they go on a never ending quest for the 'perfect set up'. They blame everything on gear inadequacies and tell themselves that the only reason photographer X has great images is the gear that was used. If the gear is the same as theirs, then they must have a 'bad copy'.

I'm not saying it never happens, but it isn't as common as you might be led to believe and the Canon and nikon lenses in particular have very good QC.
 
Adam_M said:
Hey Everyone,

Very soon I'll be getting the Canon 24-70 2.8, yippie. However I'm deadly afraid of getting a bad copy, so I'm wondering how you guys deal with it when you think you've got a bad copy of a lens? This will probably be bought from warehouse express looking at current prices.

And I'm not talking about just when the AF is off a bit, I'm talking when it's one side is significantly softer than the other, or any other apparent issues,, something that can't be solved with micro adjustments.
Click to expand...

My experience of pro lenses (Canon or Nikon) is generally good, although problems with brand new lenses are not unheard of. Still, if you are paying for professional grade performance I think you have a right to be fussy and check it out first, which is why I generally buy the pricey stuff from a bricks and mortar store - the after sales service is generally easier.

Consumer lenses have more QC issues (one only has to search Photozone and other test sites to see how many they have to retest because of centering issues) but you should be OK with an L lens.

Having said that its not unusual to require minor focus adjustment as most zooms will vary slightly with focal length and fast lenses with aperture and focus distance. It's not a serious problem per-se, but if you use fast lenses a lot then small AF issues are more obvious and you may want to match it to your prefered focus distance and aperture. Of couse you can also send your lens and camera to Canon service to get them calibrated.

Generally though, don't worry too much. Try it out when you get it and if there are serious centering issues or if you can't get it to focus, send it back as soon as possible.
 
Is there a specific way to check if a lens is bad? (i.e. shooting a set display of objects to simulate curves, lines, text, colours, shadows, etc)

I'm sure all my lens are fine and more often than not I take bad pics because of my relatively poor technique with a slr (too much using 'auto' point and shoot cameras :LOL:)
 
Jackwow said:
A new disease, "Bad Copy Syndrome". People who read so much crap on forums that every time they want to buy a lens they panic that it might be a bad copy?!
Click to expand...

Some may have good cause for panic, esp when its a food vs lens situation...:D
 
I agree people are testing lenses on charts then complaining about stupid problems get it take a few pictures then get then onto the computer and have a look thats what I did with my 70-200 2.8 l is usm mk2 expensive lens but I've no interest in shooting charts real worlds what matters and I love it :) buy and enjoy
 
When you purchase go and take real world pics in real world situations to get a feel for it. Don't jump straight in checking batteries or rulers at certain angles whilst avoiding shooting on any day with an M in it whilst balancing a sausage on your right shoulder.
You'll just scare yourself to death and sit comparing duracells for days on end. If you find a little softness after taking your real world pics then maybe dial in a little MA at the FL you use the most.
I love my 24-70L, a corker of a lens that only gets better the more you use it and work out how to get the best from it. At first I thought mine looked a little soft but the more I used it the sharper the shots due working out how to get the best from it.

I think too many get hung up on test charts and post disappointment with many lenses before actually shooting as they would normally.
 
Surely they have QC in these places where do they get damaged, in shipping
?
 
lensflair said:
Yeah I agree, most of the bad copy stuff you read in forums is user error or people testing stuff beyond the capabilities it was ever designed for. It's called 'measurebating', where people spend more time 'testing' their gear and worrying about specs than they do taking photos.

I think there's two reasons for it, one group is people who are not really into 'photography' at all, they are into the gear. Don't get me wrong, I like gear too, but ill use any camera I have on hand if I have to.

The other group are people who are into photography but they are unhappy with their photos. Instead of working out what their doing wrong and trying to improve, they go on a never ending quest for the 'perfect set up'. They blame everything on gear inadequacies and tell themselves that the only reason photographer X has great images is the gear that was used. If the gear is the same as theirs, then they must have a 'bad copy'.

I'm not saying it never happens, but it isn't as common as you might be led to believe and the Canon and nikon lenses in particular have very good QC.
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i think that hits the nail on the head.

moreso with large aperture lenses like the 1.2-1.8.
 
Well guys and gals, I've put the order in with Dale. It's going through work, a sort of benefit scheme we have here. Can't wait! ... now, to get the 5D classic.

I'm just very nervous, first time in 4 years I've bought an L lens! and with the issues we had at work with the Canon 35mm, well that didn't help at all. Even if our needs are quite extreme, and frankly not the right tool for our job anyway.

I just hope the upcoming MK II is significantly more expensive on release and thus makes me feel better about buying something that I know will most likely be replaced this year.
 
mithrandir said:
Is there a specific way to check if a lens is bad? (i.e. shooting a set display of objects to simulate curves, lines, text, colours, shadows, etc)

I'm sure all my lens are fine and more often than not I take bad pics because of my relatively poor technique with a slr (too much using 'auto' point and shoot cameras :LOL:)
Click to expand...

It's very easy to test for centering issues, which is the usual QC problem, or if the lens has been dropped.

You just need a good LCD on the camera, and to take a little care. It takes me less than one minute :D

Choose a distant target, to minimise focusing issues, like a road sign or car number plate. Lowest f/number, mid zoom setting, focus carefully and lock it, set exposure in manual. Then shoot four pictures with the target in all four corners of the frame.

Zoom in on the LCD and see what they look like. They should all be equally sharp, or probably unsharp in this case - it's a very tough test and even the best lenses will usually be a bit blurry right in the corners. But you're not looking for sharpness, you're looking only for equality.

You need good light, to make sure there is zero danger of camera shake. The light must not change at all between exposures - beware cloudy/windy days. And you must ensure the target is positioned exactly the same distance from the corner/edge with each shot, because the fall-off in sharpness in that area can be very rapid. With a number plate for example, the sharpness will probably change from one end to the other, so look in the middle.

And again, don't look for ultimate sharpness, but only for differences. And don't get too paranoid or anal about it - if there's nothing obvious and you find yourself checking and double checking to make sure, there is nothing wrong. If there's a problem, do the test again, and also check it at min and max zoom settings. If it's not repeatable every time, then the problem is you and not the lens ;)
 
skiwhiz said:
chances of a dodgy canon lens is about 1 in 300 I have read else where....
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That's interesting. I have about 300 Canon lenses and exactly one of them (a 14mm f/2.8) was a "bad copy" with a decentred element.

I don't think I've ever posted that anywhere before though, so I don't think I'm the source of your facts... but on the other hand it's not impossible.
 
HoppyUK said:
It's very easy to test for centering issues, which is the usual QC problem, or if the lens has been dropped.

You just need a good LCD on the camera, and to take a little care. It takes me less than one minute :D ...
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Spot on Richard. This procedure is quick, easy, and reliable.
 
StewartR said:
Spot on Richard. This procedure is quick, easy, and reliable.
Click to expand...

Cheers Stewart :)

Can I ask, do you check your hire lenses like this? Have you picked up any rogues, maybe ones that have been returned with dents in them? Can they be easily fixed?
 
skiwhiz said:
chances of a dodgy canon lens is about 1 in 300 I have read else where, I pondered for ages and finally bit the bullet and got a 10-22 pleased I did so buy and enjoy.
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A pretty high percentage for something as expensive as an L lens. :(
 
EMA747 said:
A pretty high percentage for something as expensive as an L lens. :(
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Not really. Pick up a copy of "Which?" at your local library and look at their surveys of the reliability of TVs and other electrical items. None of them get anywhere near 99.7%.
 
HoppyUK said:
Can I ask, do you check your hire lenses like this? Have you picked up any rogues, maybe ones that have been returned with dents in them? Can they be easily fixed?
Click to expand...

Yes. Yes. Yes.
 
itsdavedotnet said:
REALLY?

it's a CANON £1k lens.

Go and take a few photos with it, you won't want to take it back. It'll be fine.

If it is wrong in any way at all, you won't notice it when you're shooting anything other than a test chart.

So no worries :)
Click to expand...

That's nonsense, frankly. I've sent back top quality lenses that were significantly worse one side over the other and it definitely made a difference shooting wide open when the subject was on the soft side.
 
lensflair said:
Yeah I agree, most of the bad copy stuff you read in forums is user error or people testing stuff beyond the capabilities it was ever designed for. It's called 'measurebating', where people spend more time 'testing' their gear and worrying about specs than they do taking photos.

I think there's two reasons for it, one group is people who are not really into 'photography' at all, they are into the gear. Don't get me wrong, I like gear too, but ill use any camera I have on hand if I have to.

The other group are people who are into photography but they are unhappy with their photos. Instead of working out what their doing wrong and trying to improve, they go on a never ending quest for the 'perfect set up'. They blame everything on gear inadequacies and tell themselves that the only reason photographer X has great images is the gear that was used. If the gear is the same as theirs, then they must have a 'bad copy'.

I'm not saying it never happens, but it isn't as common as you might be led to believe and the Canon and nikon lenses in particular have very good QC.
Click to expand...

Whilst this is true, if you earn your living form your gear you have to trust it 100%. I shoot wide open a lot and expect my gear to meet my standards. If it doesn't it goes back.
 
The23rdman said:
Whilst this is true, if you earn your living form your gear you have to trust it 100%. I shoot wide open a lot and expect my gear to meet my standards. If it doesn't it goes back.
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I do earn my living from my gear, and I would certainly send back a diff lens. But if you were to believe all the forum posts you would be forgiven for thinking getting a good one is a rarity when in fact its the other way round :p
 
lensflair said:
I do earn my living from my gear, and I would certainly send back a diff lens. But if you were to believe all the forum posts you would be forgiven for thinking getting a good one is a rarity when in fact its the other way round :p
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I wish that had been my experience. I've only been with Nikon for a few months and I've yet to find a lens that's bang on. :(
 
StewartR said:
Yes. Yes. Yes.
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Thanks Stewart (even if your reply does sound a bit like a porn vid :D). Good to know that you check your lenses and that anything hired from you works 100%, even if it might have evidence of 'use' :)

lensflair said:
I do earn my living from my gear, and I would certainly send back a diff lens. But if you were to believe all the forum posts you would be forgiven for thinking getting a good one is a rarity when in fact its the other way round :p
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I agree. Poor copies are rare in my experience, and I must have tested 30-odd using the method described above, including quite a few Sigmas. This is not what we are lead to believe reading internet forums, yet those that you hear about, they often turn out to be user-error and there's nothing wrong anyway.

As a comment, I would also add that Sigma sells more accessory lenses, across all camera fittings, than either Nikon or Canon does individually, so the law of averages is going to affect them more, if nothing else.
 
The23rdman said:
I wish that had been my experience. I've only been with Nikon for a few months and I've yet to find a lens that's bang on. :(
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Not having a pop, but I would start to question either my camera body or more probably my technique if had not had a single lens bang on.

To the OP, I tend to agree with what others have posted, the chances of getting a bad copy are slim, but what I would say is if you can test it do so and if their is a problem take it back, I have returned one lens as it was soft, exchanged no issues at all.
 
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I actually prefer to get my lenses through the internet. That way i get 7 days, at least, to test it out/play with it and have the opportunity to send it back, no questions asked.
its all very well being able to test some thing out in the shop but time is normally limited IME, and under tube lighting, not ideal.
I've had too many encounters in shops where i had to argue to get them to replace a lens because it was playing up under certain conditions and because the shop staff couldn't reproduce it they didn't want to know.
 
HoppyUK said:
It's very easy to test for centering issues, which is the usual QC problem, or if the lens has been dropped.

You just need a good LCD on the camera, and to take a little care. It takes me less than one minute :D

Choose a distant target, to minimise focusing issues, like a road sign or car number plate. Lowest f/number, mid zoom setting, focus carefully and lock it, set exposure in manual. Then shoot four pictures with the target in all four corners of the frame.

Zoom in on the LCD and see what they look like. They should all be equally sharp, or probably unsharp in this case - it's a very tough test and even the best lenses will usually be a bit blurry right in the corners. But you're not looking for sharpness, you're looking only for equality.

You need good light, to make sure there is zero danger of camera shake. The light must not change at all between exposures - beware cloudy/windy days. And you must ensure the target is positioned exactly the same distance from the corner/edge with each shot, because the fall-off in sharpness in that area can be very rapid. With a number plate for example, the sharpness will probably change from one end to the other, so look in the middle.

And again, don't look for ultimate sharpness, but only for differences. And don't get too paranoid or anal about it - if there's nothing obvious and you find yourself checking and double checking to make sure, there is nothing wrong. If there's a problem, do the test again, and also check it at min and max zoom settings. If it's not repeatable every time, then the problem is you and not the lens ;)
Click to expand...

That's a really good practical test, thanks for that! I would have never thought about that, as at work we're used to sending our lenses off to be tested and calibrated properly in a lab. I nearly contemplated doing that for my own lenses! I really need to remember that I'm in the real world, not works silly world.

It actually turns out there's zero stock in the UK for the 24-70mm at least where I looked... so, I just ordered a 5D MK II instead. Lets hope they're actually in stock, the website says they are! woo :) finally full frame after years of hating the 1.3 & 1.6 crops I've had!
 
Another good way for checking the corners is to take a pic of a brick wall (for instance), then with exactly the same camera settings turn the camera over and take the same shot.
At home rotate one of the images and then compare them side by side on a computer screen.
At least, this works for me.
 
The23rdman said:
I wish that had been my experience. I've only been with Nikon for a few months and I've yet to find a lens that's bang on. :(
Click to expand...

I have two Nikons and several lenses and have had very few problems - law of averages dictates your body may be the problem. Easy enough to have it checked and adjusted.
 
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