Beginner A Marmite Jackdaw....

[RedRobin]

The original was shot on a dull day - I was happy to capture the inquisitive pose but have been unable to enhance/improve the photo, so I resorted to seeing what would happen in Photoshop HDR....

^ Canon 70D, Canon 400mm f5.6L, ISO 800, f8, 1/1000, Tv-mode, 0 EV, monopod. < I don't think I have left out any info.

^ The HDR process in Photoshop CS6 resulted in some very distracting colours on a branch so I removed it.

So, I'm curious what your attitude is towards 'rescuing' a photo by using a method as extreme as HDR and whether the resulting image appeals to you or not. I expect it will be like Marmite - You either hate it or love it.

 

[fracster]

The rescued shot is vile, just bin it.

Everybody has carp shots, alas, this is one. Trash it bud, you cannot make a silk purse out of............well you know.

 

[Joeturner11]

Echo the comment above ^

 

[Nod]

Why that sort of effect is supposed to enhance a photo is beyond me! The original has some detail in the feathers in places and some careful tweaking might reveal more but the edit has coverd a load of that detail up with noise. Personally, since the shot is of the bird, I would have used spot metering and since it's a black bird, I would dial in a little exposure compensation to allow for the spot metering wanting to overexpose to get the bird mid grey.

 

[RedRobin]

Why that sort of effect is supposed to enhance a photo is beyond me! The original has some detail in the feathers in places and some careful tweaking might reveal more but the edit has coverd a load of that detail up with noise. Personally, since the shot is of the bird, I would have used spot metering and since it's a black bird, I would dial in a little exposure compensation to allow for the spot metering wanting to overexpose to get the bird mid grey.

....Now that feedback is somewhat more helpful than the room echoing to the sound of the term "vile" and "bin it".

My Canon 70D was set to spot metering but I didn't change the EV value. So I should have quickly dialled in say -1 EV? wouldn't that make the image darker?

I would value any suggestions how to tweak the feathers detail to reveal more. The original is in RAW.

Btw, I can explain why I think that the HDR effect, for me, has enhanced the image (rather than the photograph) but will post that later.

 

[Col]

This illustrates how different people see an image so the analogy with marmite is so valid. I personally feel that the original shot is OK and shows the bird as taken whereas the HDR effect often changes it into a more arty style photograph.

 

[Solo man]

There are times when it's good to try different things..... and some things can often be rescued, to a degree....and we've all done it.
In this instance however, it is the background that is the most distracting element of your image.... and your processing did nothing to improve that aspect of it....
Had the background been less 'twiggy', I could see the benefit of 'having a go' at processing it to try and improve it.....
For me though... I'd bin it....

 

[RedRobin]

This illustrates how different people see an image so the analogy with marmite is so valid. I personally feel that the original shot is OK and shows the bird as taken whereas the HDR effect often changes it into a more arty style photograph.

....You got it in one! The HDR effect converts the photograph into an illustration in which the fundamental characteristic features of a Jackdaw are emphasised - Surely I don't need to list those features for anyone. It's an image - A picture rather than a photograph.

However, that's just one way of post processing the original photo and I am interested in the more conventional ways as an exercise and to teach me how do PP better. Whether this particular photo is worth tinkering with is not important.

 

[RedRobin]

There are times when it's good to try different things..... and some things can often be rescued, to a degree....and we've all done it.
In this instance however, it is the background that is the most distracting element of your image.... and your processing did nothing to improve that aspect of it....
Had the background been less 'twiggy', I could see the benefit of 'having a go' at processing it to try and improve it.....
For me though... I'd bin it....

....I did wonder about removing more twigs and agree with you that it might improve the overall image (regardless of its other weaknesses).

Thanks for that, Lee - I'll try removing all the twigs to the right of the Jackdaw's beak

 

[Pinkbikerbabe]

I do prefer your original image off the jackdaw as it's clearer and sharper looking and there is detail to be seen. My only niggle would be the twigs there not really helping the image as I find them distracting.

While I do like a but of HDR if used in the right situations I feel it does not suit bird images, as it has made your second image noisy and has lost detail. It's good to experiment with things tho after all it's how we learn if something works or not.

 

[Solo man]

....I did wonder about removing more twigs and agree with you that it might improve the overall image (regardless of its other weaknesses).

Thanks for that, Lee - I'll try removing all the twigs to the right of the Jackdaw's beak

I'm sure most of us have tried to recover a 'poor' image...... but, with experience comes the realisation that some images are 'poor' from the outset....
Still, keep trying, you might get an image that works for you...
Personally though, HDR, and manipulating bird images to any great degree is something I'm not convinced needs to be done...

 

[RedRobin]

I do prefer your original image off the jackdaw as it's clearer and sharper looking and there is detail to be seen. My only niggle would be the twigs there not really helping the image as I find them distracting.

While I do like a but of HDR if used in the right situations I feel it does not suit bird images, as it has made your second image noisy and has lost detail. It's good to experiment with things tho after all it's how we learn if something works or not.

....Thanks - Your feedback is much appreciated.

I am going to remove the twigs to the right. Having done that I want to see if I can improve the original photograph just to help me learn and even if I then bin it, but I'm not sure how to best go about it and will have to experiment. Others as well have suggested that there is detail in there (as indeed the HDR shows).

I agree with you and Lee that generally HDR is very rarely going to suit any bird image, but as Colin aka Col has understood, the HDR in this case transforms the photo into a form of illustration and I feel it emphasises the Jackdaw species characteristics which appeal to me.

 

[Nod]

....Now that feedback is somewhat more helpful than the room echoing to the sound of the term "vile" and "bin it".

My Canon 70D was set to spot metering but I didn't change the EV value. So I should have quickly dialled in say -1 EV? wouldn't that make the image darker?

I would value any suggestions how to tweak the feathers detail to reveal more. The original is in RAW.

Btw, I can explain why I think that the HDR effect, for me, has enhanced the image (rather than the photograph) but will post that later.

I do try to be helpful! Honest!!!

Guessing that the focus point used was the central one and that the camera uses the AF point as the spot for metering, I think the meter may have got confused a little since it looks like the point was right on the edge of the bird, so may have taken in some of the background as well. If the metering was purely off the black feathers of the bird, I would expect the camera to overexpose the bird, hence my suggestion for a touch of underexposure compensation combined with spot metering. Maybe some global lightening in LR/PS could work, with a little noise reduction too rather than trying HDR on it.

We've all tried rescuing shots - even back in B&W film days, I would try to compensate for thin negs at the printing stage. We've probably all had some successes but few rescued pics are anywhere near as good as a well exposed original. As Ade said, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear or as I got into trouble for saying, you can't polish a ****! Keep the image and play with it and see if you can get something that YOU are happy with. Unless you're shooting for competition or commercially, you only need to please yourself, so the fact that some of us don't like it doesn't mean that you shouldn't!

 

[fracster]

I`m sorry if I offended anybody, I could not comment on the original due to the fact that the dreadful processing in the second one rendered me temporarily blind.

How anybody can see anything artistic or favourable in the second shot is staggering. No matter how you dress it up, it is awful, surely that is obvious to all concerned.

 

[the black fox]

well robin at least your making them take attention ,only one thing to say about the bin it comment ,you are now at the stage where you have all the gear ,time to start getting the idea ,i.e if your shooting a bird with a lot of blue sky behind /around it pos + exposure compensations is a must otherwise the sky will blow out the birds details .you can see the result of the wrong exposure by simply looking at the CA on the branches .i know your reluctance to p/p but its there to use so why not use it .in the old days you didn't take a roll of film out of the camera and not develop it ,that took various stages get a finished print no different these days .now stop being a stubborn old git .theres a good lad

 

[RedRobin]

I do try to be helpful! Honest!!!

Guessing that the focus point used was the central one and that the camera uses the AF point as the spot for metering, I think the meter may have got confused a little since it looks like the point was right on the edge of the bird, so may have taken in some of the background as well. If the metering was purely off the black feathers of the bird, I would expect the camera to overexpose the bird, hence my suggestion for a touch of underexposure compensation combined with spot metering. Maybe some global lightening in LR/PS could work, with a little noise reduction too rather than trying HDR on it.

....And you are helpful, Nod!

On the Canon 70D I think you can separately set the AF point and the metering pattern/point - I certainly shoot on a one central spot focus. I'll look into it. I have only had the 70D (my first DSLR) since December - It takes time and sometimes FAILURE IS THE PATH TO SUCCESS.

What you are saying about exposure compensation is exactly what that black fox aka Jeff very kindly taught me earlier when shooting flying Gulls - Sometimes I need telling more than once!

 

[RedRobin]

I`m sorry if I offended anybody, I could not comment on the original due to the fact that the dreadful processing in the second one rendered me temporarily blind.

How anybody can see anything artistic or favourable in the second shot is staggering. No matter how you dress it up, it is awful, surely that is obvious to all concerned.

....No problem whatsoever, Ade - You haven't offended me. In fact I grinned from ear to ear when I read your post describing it as "vile" - My thread title does warn of the presence of Marmite!

BUT.... I do find the second HDR shot very appealing, though not as a photograph but as a graphic image.

My thinking here was "s***, I'm not succeeding in rescuing this shot, let's just throw all caution to the wind and see what happens if I try HDR" and then I liked what resulted but in a different way.

I have to come clean and say that I totally anticipated such strong reactions as yours (hence Marmite) and that some wouldn't understand where I was coming from. Col understood though.

 

[RedRobin]

well robin at least your making them take attention ,only one thing to say about the bin it comment ,you are now at the stage where you have all the gear ,time to start getting the idea ,i.e if your shooting a bird with a lot of blue sky behind /around it pos + exposure compensations is a must otherwise the sky will blow out the birds details .you can see the result of the wrong exposure by simply looking at the CA on the branches .i know your reluctance to p/p but its there to use so why not use it .in the old days you didn't take a roll of film out of the camera and not develop it ,that took various stages get a finished print no different these days .now stop being a stubborn old git .theres a good lad

....Firstly, what is "CA" please? Chromatic Aberration?

You kindly taught me before about exposure against the sky but again, this was a grab shot with me set up for otherwise. I have to learn to quickly switch settings.

Let's make something very clear: I ain't gonna bin this shot! I ain't giving up yet! Just as a learning exercise I have gone right back to the original RAW mage as shot and have started again. I am spending time watching Aperture tutorials online and have already started to make some progress. Of course it will never be an award winning photograph.

It's because this is a basically crap shot that it can teach me much. Failure can be the path to success.

So I'll be posting more of this Jackdaw and also I hope that other beginners might learn something too from this thread.

OK?

 

[the black fox]

robin yes CA is chromatic aberration or purple fringing .it either means crap camera or lens or bad exposure ,we can rule out the first two

next you have a big wheel on the rear of your 70d it should be set so that a simple movement of your thumb adjusts the exposure compensation up or down ,its usually set as standard on canons ,i.e just gently touch the shutter and then spin wheel left or right and watch comp go up or down .

your taking the right path to learning i learnt a lot from those videos .and if it goes wrong you can always blame me everyone else does

 

[fracster]

....No problem whatsoever, Ade - You haven't offended me. In fact I grinned from ear to ear when I read your post describing it as "vile" - My thread title does warn of the presence of Marmite!

BUT.... I do find the second HDR shot very appealing, though not as a photograph but as a graphic image.

My thinking here was "tummymud, I'm not succeeding in rescuing this shot, let's just throw all caution to the wind and see what happens if I try HDR" and then I liked what resulted but in a different way.

I have to come clean and say that I totally anticipated such strong reactions as yours (hence Marmite) and that some wouldn't understand where I was coming from. Col understood though.

OK Robin, I guess that it is all subjective and it would be boring as hell if we liked the same thing.

I have tried, really tried ,to like something in the second image. I honestly have, it just is not my pot of Earl Grey i`m afraid.

But I accept that others may like, dunno why they would, but what the hell................

 

[Neil B]

I can't comment on the edit because i wouldn't of bothered taking the original shot, i would be spending my time trying to improve my chances of getting better shots rather than messing with HDR.
If your happy that's fine and i'm surprised you didn't get a few more "nice shot" comments.

 

[Solo man]

What exactly are you hoping to achieve with your processing?...what are your thoughts on how you are hoping to improve it, as every bit of your processing is making your image look less natural....
I can see your line of thought with regards to watching tutorials to help you improve your processing skills, I just feel that you're working on a poor image, which is looking poorer with every attempt.

 

[RedRobin]

I can't comment on the edit because i wouldn't of bothered taking the original shot, i would be spending my time trying to improve my chances of getting better shots rather than messing with HDR.
If your happy that's fine and i'm surprised you didn't get a few more "nice shot" comments.

....Hello Neil, I bothered taking the original shot because the Jackdaw's attitude appealed to me at the time. Regarding my time, I have plenty of it (I don't work) and the weather is generally bad at the moment. However, I have been out shooting every time there is a glimmer of reasonable light and, in the csae of this Jackdaw, even with poor light.

As I posted earlier, I'm just using this Jackdaw photo as something to learn from and practice on before moving on to either editing other photos or taking more photos.

I accept that whatever I try may not be a sufficient improvement to justify not binning it - We'll see.

 

[RedRobin]

What exactly are you hoping to achieve with your processing?...what are your thoughts on how you are hoping to improve it, as every bit of your processing is making your image look less natural....
I can see your line of thought with regards to watching tutorials to help you improve your processing skills, I just feel that you're working on a poor image, which is looking poorer with every attempt.

....To answer your questions: I'm hoping to learn what the post processing controls do in Aperture, I am hoping to be able to bring out more definition and detail in the Jackdaw's plumage but without resorting to surreal effects. However from the point of view of graphic illustration and not photography, I doubtless will also try another HDR as an extra version just for my own enjoyment and curiosity.

Now that I have removed many of the twigs and done a few basic tweaks, the image is already looking better and more natural but I accept that I may soon reach a limit which forces me to give up on this one. I have to experience and reach that point myself in order to benefit and learn - It isn't enough to give up because opinion says I ought to give up even if that opinion turns out to be right.

Later I can easily switch to applying what I learn to an image which folks here might consider more worthy.

 

[ACW]

A dark bird against a bright (almost white) looking sky is always going to make the exposure slightly more challenging.

Personally, birds with a white BG don't do much for me. I prefer the BG to be complementary rather than overwhelming. A lot of shots I've taken have ended up in the 'Record Shots' folder of my HDD and never online for precisely that reason.

As has been said above, there is only so far you can go with post processing. The HDR has made the bird look very noisy/grainy.

Is this a large crop or pretty much as shot?

 

[RedRobin]

A dark bird against a bright (almost white) looking sky is always going to make the exposure slightly more challenging.

Personally, birds with a white BG don't do much for me. I prefer the BG to be complementary rather than overwhelming. A lot of shots I've taken have ended up in the 'Record Shots' folder of my HDD and never online for precisely that reason.

As has been said above, there is only so far you can go with post processing. The HDR has made the bird look very noisy/grainy.

Is this a large crop or pretty much as shot?

....I agree, white backgrounds don't excite me either but I was out there practicing how to use my new camera (December) and 400mm lens (January) and therefore was, and still am, happy to shoot any bird in order to learn. I could always drop in an interesting sky as a background, I have a folder of them .

I also agree that that there is clearly only so far I can go with post processing this image - The best way for me (or anyone) to learn is to discover that for myself, don't you agree? Hence I haven't given up and binned it yet. I may keep it anyway so that hopefully one day I can look back and think what a load of crap I shot that day.

Re HDR, the very line of my original post reads: "The original was shot on a dull day - I was happy to capture the inquisitive pose but have been unable to enhance/improve the photo, so I resorted to seeing what would happen in Photoshop HDR" < In other words it was an experiment but, as I keep having to repeat, it converted a photograph into a graphic illustration that I like. It's just an additional version of the image.

Yes, it's a large crop - My garage building physically stopped me from getting any closer.

Thanks for joining in this discussion - It is helpful and appreciated.

 

[Nod]

Absolutely no harm in experimenting - it's how we all learn!

 

[RedRobin]

next you have a big wheel on the rear of your 70d it should be set so that a simple movement of your thumb adjusts the exposure compensation up or down ,its usually set as standard on canons ,i.e just gently touch the shutter and then spin wheel left or right and watch comp go up or down .

your taking the right path to learning i learnt a lot from those videos .and if it goes wrong you can always blame me everyone else does

....In between watching 'webinars' about editing in Aperture I popped into my garden this morning and managed to get a few shots practicing your tip about controlling EV with the wheel on the rear. It's about 15 years since I used a Canon non-digital SLR EOS-1 and I had completely forgotten that feature, so many thanks (yet again) for that, Jeff. I used my 400mm f5.6L handheld.