Advice regarding local paper

Robsam23

Robsam23

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34
Name
Rob
Edit My Images
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Hi Guys,

I've got a bit if a situation and I'd appreciate the opinions of people here.

I cover BBL Basketball games and this season I've started working with a team. They pay me for the photos.
Last week I got an email from a local paper asking to use my pictures for match reports, they said they can't afford to pay, but would give me credit.

I politely explained that I'd be happy to send them images, but I couldn't give them for free. I heard nothing back.
Today I noticed that the paper has printed a story with two of my pictures, they have given me credit.

They must have got these pictures directly from the team because it's the only other place where the pictures are.

So that leads me to now....

The club has paid me for the images, should that mean that they are entitled to pass them onto papers for their match reports? I guess that means I'm indirectly getting paid for the images in the publication.

A quick google image search and identified that there are actually 3 different publications using 5 of my images (all three have credited me). All of them must have come from the club itself.

I'm sure others here must have experienced this with various sports/publications.

I'd appreciate any opinion.

Many thanks
Rob
 
first things first.. speak to the club who have obviously passed on the pictures.. explain to them that the pics are for club use not media use and any media should come through you.. OR you may find out that the club are paying you with a view to supplying the papers..

right now the ones published you may as well forget about.. you need to sort this out for rest of season..

I have a local BB club (not BBL) who pay me for pictures and supply the local paper purely because the local paper wont pay.. so they pay me and give to paper.. that way I get paid off someone.. but thats all worked out from the OFF....
 
Kipax - thank you for your input.

I agree on your point about sorting out stuff like this from the off. Hindsight and a lack of experience from me I guess.

Of the 3 'papers' in question, two of them are only online and the third (the biggest of the 3) is the one that approaches me for free photos. On this basis I doubt there was much money in it for me, looking back at previous articles they have done, they don't seem to mind using stock photos which I suspect they would just revert back to if pushed to buy these images.

I guess I was trying to gather opinion about whether or not the usual agreement for clubs that pay for photos is that they are then allowed to pass them to media outlets.

I guess that's maybe for me to determine with the club themselves.
 
I agree with Tony, in that someone always has to pay for the photography - it doesn't really matter who.

What does matter, however, is how much.

The club is effectively now using you for PR photography. That attracts a much higher premium than straight forward match coverage, so your fee should reflect that.
 
There's also the point that the newspaper in question deliberately went behind his back after he'd said no. Devious, sneaky, and underhand I'd call it.
 
Stuart M said:
There's also the point that the newspaper in question deliberately went behind his back after he'd said no. Devious, sneaky, and underhand I'd call it.
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That's one hell of an assumption. If the club supplied the images, they are the ones at fault. Not the paper.
 
DemiLion said:
That's one hell of an assumption. If the club supplied the images, they are the ones at fault. Not the paper.
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Not really. The photographer turned the paper's request down so they deliberately sought to obtain the photographs from the club instead. They wanted the photos but just didn't want to pay anyone for them. You can bet your boots that the paper didn't tell the club that the photographer had already said no and that's sneaky as far as I'm concerned.
 
Hi all, thank you for everyone's input.

Gary - I absolutely agree, it's their business to try and wangle as much as possible for free. That's why I rejected their request for free images. My query is more to do with the clubs handing over images that they've paid for part.

I'm getting the impression from these replies that most people would expect to get paid separately for the published images.

Demilion - I don't know if the paper approached the club or vice versa.

Either way, it's probably all going to form part of a polite conversation with the club tomorrow.
 
Stuart M said:
Not really. The photographer turned the paper's request down so they deliberately sought to obtain the photographs from the club instead. They wanted the photos but just didn't want to pay anyone for them. You can bet your boots that the paper didn't tell the club that the photographer had already said no and that's sneaky as far as I'm concerned.
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As I said, that's one hell of an assumption:

Robsam23 said:
Demilion - I don't know if the paper approached the club or vice versa.
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Sorry demilion that was meant to be directed at Stuart.

Thanks for clarifying.
 
Once you've had a chance to have a chat with the club, it would be interesting to hear who approached who. Perhaps you could let us know.
 
I've supplied a local paper with photos from local running and cycling events from time to time. They did a piece about me raising money for a charity through my photography. I've decided to stop allowing them to use my images. They "edit" them in a way I don't like and haven't made a single contribution to the charity. I suppose that I was flattered that they would actually want to use any of my photos. Not any more. Finished.
 
Hi Stuart - yes I'll update here when I've spoken to them.

Thanks for your input mossienet. I had never intended to give the images free myself, I learnt that early on from reading this and other forums.

The bit that threw the grey area onto it was the fact that the club pay for me to shoot the games for them. I was interested to hear if anyone else works with clubs under the agreement that if they pay you for the images then they can pass them on directly without needed your express permission or additional payment.

If these were photos I had taken off my own back then I'd definitely seek payment for any media outlet use, but the fact that I have been paid by the club for the images has made me doubt it a bit before approaching them. Hence me seeking others opinions here. It's been very useful.
 
A cycling club use some of the shots on their site and send the odd one to the newspaper, BUT they have donated a massive amount of cash for MalariaNoMore - the charity I raise money for. One cyclist donated £50 for one shot of himself.
 
Hi Rob !!

Now - I am not 100% certain of your situation - or your agreement with the Club you shoot for, etc.
I have covered the BBL for quite a few years, and I think that if you are the 'official' Club photographer.. the club will then provide your images to the League (this I think has been the way with Club photographers in the BBL for a while). The league also provides images for the National Media - free of charge, so it could be that your images have ended up in the National/Local press in that way.
Personally I have not seen this seasons Photo Agreement - but have talked to other photographers (so this is hear-say) that the clubs provide 15 images per game to the league from their Club Photographer.

There are many leagues of the smaller sports who operate this way - so that the Club or League photographer provides images, which then can be distributed free of charge to media use.

So, I'd probably look at the BBL Photo Agreement that you SHOULD have signed... I think it almost the equivalent of DataCo Licence for BBL :)
If you shoot BBL games - you should get this one signed (probably not every photographer does that, as clubs can allow local togs in to games).

I know that (as the BBL's Official Photographer) - my images tend to be in lots of papers, but that is part of the agreement with myself and BBL.

Basketball is far from the only sport in UK that operates in this way - and sometimes if I have approached other sports organisations, they request me to provide images free of charge for them to use in 'exchange' for accreditation (let's say I've politely declined these requests).

Feel free to drop me a PM here if you have questions.... but my advice is - talk to your Club and see if they have provided them to the League and ask to see your Photo Agreement for the 2014-2015 season.
 
South London Press just paid me for an image that was used last season.

It was the ref talking to Chris Powell and Danny Wilson as he called of the match at 12:30pm. I was early and the only photographer there. They wanted the image and they paid.

Last season an online-sports website used (without authorisation) an image of mine. I spotted it and invoiced them. I badgered them for ages and no reply, so last Friday I started questioning via Twitter why they wouldn't pay. Today I got a remittance through from them - just need to keep an eye out later in the week for the payment.
 
Googabu - thanks for taking the time to write a really informative reply.

Bigrob - interesting to hear, thanks. P.s I'd have sooo had that username if you hadn't got there first!

I spoke to the club today, they're coming back to me tomorrow.
 
GooGaBu said:
If you shoot BBL games - you should get this one signed (probably not every photographer does that, as clubs can allow local togs in to games).
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the above is why the BBL licence is a bit of a joke :( whats the point of getting a licence and adhering to the rules.. then every tom dick and harry comes along without a licence and does what they want wiht the pics... bbl licence good idea.. badly implimented :(
 
I do have a BBL license. My experience is that some clubs are quite strict with it and won't allow access without it.

There are a couple or seem keen to get additional coverage and will flex on it though.
 
I'm not sure what happened. I'm on my phone so probably the cause. Can anyone direct me on how to delete? I go to the edit option and can't see it.
 
Robsam23 said:
I'm not sure what happened. I'm on my phone so probably the cause. Can anyone direct me on how to delete? I go to the edit option and can't see it.
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I've removed the multiple posts for you, and tidied up a little
 
An update as promised.

In summary it seems as though Googabu is fairly accurate.

The actual BBL agreement doesn't specify about use of images. I understand that there is a separate club photographers agreement but I haven't signed that one as I'm contracted on a per game basis rather than employed by the club.

I've had a good conversation with the club and we've settled on an agreement that I'm happy with where they have the right to pass on images to certain local publications (we've reflected that in my per game fee).

They have given me a list of those publications and anything outside of those will come through me.

I'm happy in the end. Thank you to everyone who took the time to input here, it helped me out.

Anyway, I've actually not for any basketball this weekend! It's the Fulham FC Academy games for me.

Thanks all
Rob
 
very interesting read and i'm glad you have got this sorted!

I also have a question if anyone can give me any advice?...
I shot the 'captains charity day golf tournament' at my local golf club last week for my uncle (who happens to be club captain) and suggested I take and sell photos to competitors with 50% of the profit from each sale going to charity, fair enough.
However, the local paper got in touch requesting a couple of photos for the weekly paper and in return I was promised a credit, I wouldn't normally accept but it was a charity event and wanted it to get some good coverage.
Anyway I get the weekly paper from the newsagents and find the photo used but with no credit like I was promised, there were other sports stories on the same page with credits, would anyone else be annoyed with this? I feel as though it is the least somebody could do provided that the photos were free.

any thoughts?
 
Actually the credit you should have asked for was a donation to the charity.

You know it was your photo & you can show it it to whoever you want.

If they wanted it they would have have made the donation.

Move on and learn.
 
jdix4 said:
Anyway I get the weekly paper from the newsagents and find the photo used but with no credit like I was promised, there were other sports stories on the same page with credits, would anyone else be annoyed with this? I feel as though it is the least somebody could do provided that the photos were free.?
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yours where free and didnt get a credit.. the ones they paid for did get a credit... did you really want yours to appear with (c)mug in the corner? dont give free pics to newspapers is my advice :)
 
jdix4 said:
very interesting read and i'm glad you have got this sorted!

I also have a question if anyone can give me any advice?...
I shot the 'captains charity day golf tournament' at my local golf club last week for my uncle (who happens to be club captain) and suggested I take and sell photos to competitors with 50% of the profit from each sale going to charity, fair enough.
However, the local paper got in touch requesting a couple of photos for the weekly paper and in return I was promised a credit, I wouldn't normally accept but it was a charity event and wanted it to get some good coverage.
Anyway I get the weekly paper from the newsagents and find the photo used but with no credit like I was promised, there were other sports stories on the same page with credits, would anyone else be annoyed with this? I feel as though it is the least somebody could do provided that the photos were free.

any thoughts?
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Oh dear, will people ever listen
 
jdix4 said:
point taken, everyone makes mistakes.
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It's not a mistake(you were being kind) all you do is contact the paper and tell them that they did not credit you as agreed as a result please find the enclosed invoice for £25 for one photo and £15 per photo thereafter.Simple as that.

I doubt you will do it because you were not strong enough to insist on payment in the first place.I know I would not let anyone S*** on me like that.
 
Forget the invoice & move on.

In future if it's for charity get them to give money to that charity.
 
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