Amateur Rugby Union (5th Attempt, at last good weather)

MWHCVT

MWHCVT

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Matthew
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Hi, I am hoping to get some C&C on my shots from the RU match that I covered on Saturday, for those that are interested it was Copsewood RFC vs Coventrians RFC, with a final score of 15-27.

The conditions were really poor with it being really dark, windy and overall miserable, but I hope that I have made the best of the situation.

#1

MWH077-20110115 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

#2

MWH078-20110115 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

#3

MWH068-20110115 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

#4

MWH034-20110115 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

#5

MWH100-20110115 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

#6

MWH093-20110115 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

The full Set: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwhcvt/sets/72157625706743353

I know that there are some really talented sports toggers on this site so I really appreciate your input on my attempt

Thanks for looking and your thoughts

Matt
MWHCVT
 
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I'm no expert but here goes:

#1 I like the impression of movement here but see #2
#2 Man lying on the floor with a ball. If he was a famous man it might help, but otherwise only the subject will be interested I am afraid
#3 OK, but needs a ball in frame
#4 nothing much shot also missing the ball
#5 OK but the key player is blurred - keep shutter speeds higher. A noisy sharp shot is better than a noise free blurred one
#6 Best of the bunch. I always like shots of players scrambling for the ball but not many other viewers seem to.

Hope these help.
 
Hi Matt

1) Out of focus, bin it

2) Looks better and as its a try shot, i would probably keep it.

3) Why did you include this? there is no ball and you have the back of one player, interesting expression on the player in blue but, i would have binned it

4) Not too sure about this either, its well timed in that you have caught the tackle with the player in the air but again you can't see the ball and its a bit of a loose crop.

5) This is more like it, closely cropped and you can see the ball and the face of the player with it. Looks out of focus to me though

6) See 5 :)

You are standing for these shots, you really need to be sitting down for football/rugby the low viewpoint gives the shots much more impact.
 
The biggest mistake is that you're shooting in Tv/Shutter priority mode @ 1/125-1/250 which is why you've ended up with the massive amount of motion blur in No1.

Have a read of James' guide to shooting sports in the tutorial section, which covers most of what you need to know.
 
ianmarsh said:
I'm no expert but here goes:

#1 I like the impression of movement here but see #2
#2 Man lying on the floor with a ball. If he was a famous man it might help, but otherwise only the subject will be interested I am afraid
#3 OK, but needs a ball in frame
#4 nothing much shot also missing the ball
#5 OK but the key player is blurred - keep shutter speeds higher. A noisy sharp shot is better than a noise free blurred one
#6 Best of the bunch. I always like shots of players scrambling for the ball but not many other viewers seem to.

Hope these help.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the constructive critique.

Rovers_Andy said:
Hi Matt

1) Out of focus, bin it

2) Looks better and as its a try shot, i would probably keep it.

3) Why did you include this? there is no ball and you have the back of one player, interesting expression on the player in blue but, i would have binned it

4) Not too sure about this either, its well timed in that you have caught the tackle with the player in the air but again you can't see the ball and its a bit of a loose crop.

5) This is more like it, closely cropped and you can see the ball and the face of the player with it. Looks out of focus to me though

6) See 5 :)

You are standing for these shots, you really need to be sitting down for football/rugby the low viewpoint gives the shots much more impact.
Click to expand...

I think that I might take my fishing basket along with my next time to get the lower vantage point that you suggest.

As to number 3, If I am honest I included it because it 1, amused me and 2, I really could not work it out why he was jumping because if dosn't look like the other player is going to kick the ball, so there would be no reason to jump to block the kick!

Interestingly the one club has ordered a copy of this on 8x10 for the clubhouse ;)

DemiLion said:
The biggest mistake is that you're shooting in Tv/Shutter priority mode @ 1/125-1/250 which is why you've ended up with the massive amount of motion blur in No1.

Have a read of James' guide to shooting sports in the tutorial section, which covers most of what you need to know.
Click to expand...

Thanks I'll give the guide a good read

Given the really rubbish conditions i.e light. Would I have been better going to ISO1600 so that I could have gone to 1/320 or 1/400?

Again thanks for the feedback

Matt
MWHCVT
 
I was shooting this sunday. I needed ISO 1600 to get anywhere near 1/500th which is the around the minimum I'll shoot rugby at.
 
Boost the iso as far as necessary to get 1/500, ideally 1/1000. I was at 3200 this weekend to get 1/1000ish.

It took me a long time to trust this advice but I threw away so many motion blurred shots by trying to keep isos down. Noise reduction software is so good nowadays that as long as your exposure is reasonable you don't have to worry much.
 
Byker28i said:
I was shooting this sunday. I needed ISO 1600 to get anywhere near 1/500th which is the around the minimum I'll shoot rugby at.
Click to expand...

ianmarsh said:
Boost the iso as far as necessary to get 1/500, ideally 1/1000. I was at 3200 this weekend to get 1/1000ish.

It took me a long time to trust this advice but I threw away so many motion blurred shots by trying to keep isos down. Noise reduction software is so good nowadays that as long as your exposure is reasonable you don't have to worry much.
Click to expand...

As I'm shooting with a 450D so ISO1600 would be my max, I am hoping to upgrade soon ;) Next time that I am shooting I will try and take the shutter as fast as I can take it.

I am pleased a getting some valuable C&C on this attempt, I know that this is another basic question but for this type of shooting what focusing mode should I select as the focusing was not brilliant so was wondering what everyone else would suggest? These were shot in "One Shot" Mode so I think that this may have been a mistake!

Matt
MWHCVT
 
I was shooting with my 50D at ISO 1600, servo mode, with a 100-400 at f4-f5.6 (basically the widest you could shoot). You can't track focus easily with one shot.
My youngest was shooting with his 400D, ISO 800, 100-400 lens, again servo mode and did ok. His first time at sports.
 
Byker28i said:
Sigh. I'd love a 1d mk4
Click to expand...

So would Gary!
icon_twisted.gif
 
MWHCVT said:
The conditions were really poor with it being really dark, windy and overall miserable
Click to expand...
:LOL::LOL:(y)

I agree with what has been said about the pictures, however perhaps you shoud consider placing less of these watermarks, maybe even not placing them at all (especially shot nr 6 ).
 
lazym said:
:LOL::LOL:(y)

I agree with what has been said about the pictures, however perhaps you shoud consider placing less of these watermarks, maybe even not placing them at all (especially shot nr 6 ).
Click to expand...

I admit that I am no fan of watermarks and number six is very unfortunate, :bang: hadn't spotted that until you pointed it out. I think that I will have to reevaluate the use of watermarks, I use the upper left watermark for obvious reasons.

Matt
MWHCVT
 
If you need to up the ISO, Make sure you fill the frame so no/minimal cropping required and make sure the exposure is spot on as this will make the noise even worsen when PP'd.
 
DemiLion said:
On a side note, unfortunately due to a slight 'internal disagreement' James' tutorial is not currently/no longer available.
Click to expand...

Oh dear.. I hadn't noticed that...
 
DemiLion said:
Rats!! :p


On a side note, unfortunately due to a slight 'internal disagreement' James' tutorial is not currently/no longer available.

Hopefully he'll reinstate it at some stage, but in the mean time this should give an idea:

http://photo.net/learn/sports/overview
Click to expand...

Thanks, for the link Mark, I have just scanned through the first couple of pages and it looks like a really good read, I have bookmarked it to read later, I noticed that James' guide and gone that is a shame, I hope things get resolved soon as that was a great guide what I had read of it.

I hope to get to another game of Saturday, weather permitting, this is at a much more open ground with less cover so will be lighter, I shall aim to shoot at at least 1/500th and will also switch the focus to AI Servo, should be fun.

What is utter madness is that I am normally happy to receive 50-100 hits on my flickr per 24hrs but on Sunday I received 1169 hits and on Monday I received 2123 hits so thanks for everyone that has taken a look.

Matt
MWHCVT
 
So went out today do put into practice some of tips that I received earlier in this thread

Please let me know if you think I have made any improvements, and areas that further improvement are still required, I am afraid that I was not able to get a lower vantage point just yet, but hope to be able improve on that issue in the near future.

#7.

MWH040-20110122 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

#8.

MWH090-20110122 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

#9.

MWH078-20110122 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

Here is the entire set http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwhcvt/sets/72157625883695176/

As always your time and thoughts are much appreciated.

Matt
MWHCVT
 
Miles better!!

1 & 3 are great action shots, although you're still shooting in Tv which can be a bit dodgy apart from panning.

You've also just discovered why Gingers can be a nightmare with high saturation levels!!! :LOL:

Edit: Number relate to the second set! :D
 
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On the contrary to others, I really like number one. It's a bit arty. Too much 'it must be sharp' it must be 'frozen' going on in here!

I think some people are forgetting that not every sports shot needs to be shot as if it were going in a newspaper. Blur is cool for going on walls and what not.

Remember what Soccersnapper said.. it's not about ISO 5million, it's about being creative with what you've got.

Would this, or perhaps this picture look as cool if it were all nice and sharp? I rest my case.
 
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purpleclouds said:
On the contrary to others, I really like number one. It's a bit arty. Too much 'it must be sharp' it must be 'frozen' going on in here!

I think some people are forgetting that not every sports shot needs to be shot as if it were going in a newspaper. Blur is cool for going on walls and what not.

Remember what Soccersnapper said.. it's not about ISO 5million, it's about being creative with what you've got.

Would this, or perhaps this picture look as cool if it were all nice and sharp? I rest my case.
Click to expand...

Yes those shots are superb Phil but there's a difference between shooting something clearly with the intention of using a slower shutter speed and/or panning and cocking up your settings through inexperience.

Motion blur when used properly is very effective as you've shown in the examples posted.

Surely though, when someone is just starting out and trying to get your stock action shots, well exposed, subject sharp where it needs to be then it should be drilled into them about using the correct technique, if you don't understand how to freeze the action how will you be able to get something creative later?
 
Rovers_Andy said:
Yes those shots are superb Phil but there's a difference between shooting something clearly with the intention of using a slower shutter speed and/or panning and cocking up your settings through inexperience.

Motion blur when used properly is very effective as you've shown in the examples posted.

Surely though, when someone is just starting out and trying to get your stock action shots, well exposed, subject sharp where it needs to be then it should be drilled into them about using the correct technique, if you don't understand how to freeze the action how will you be able to get something creative later?
Click to expand...

Quite, but it's just a shame all the replies have been along the lines of pushing his ISO to max shutter speed/upgrading/binning it ;). You can almost guarantee that had he pushed the ISO on his 450D someone would have then complained that there was noise and he should have used a lower ISO :)

I don't think someone starting out should be just aiming to nail one thing.. they should be experimenting as much as possible to nail everything. If you follow the learning curve given by the settings triangle (shutter speed/aperture/ISO) then you'll naturally learn how to freeze action, how to create blur etc. I don't believe there is such thing as a correct technique. I was told by a very well established photographer to stop my long lens down to f5.6-f7 if needs be during the day to maximise depth of field for all the players in shot.. but then backgrounds become an issue. Swings and roundabouts. Works for him, but not for me :shrug:

Telling him to set his camera to one lot of settings does jack all for anyone :)
 
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purpleclouds said:
Quite, but it's just a shame all the replies have been along the lines of pushing his ISO to max shutter speed/upgrading/binning it ;). You can almost guarantee that had he pushed the ISO on his 450D someone would have then complained that there was noise and he should have used a lower ISO :)

I don't think someone starting out should be just aiming to nail one thing.. they should be experimenting as much as possible to nail everything. If you follow the learning curve given by the settings triangle (shutter speed/aperture/ISO) then you'll naturally learn how to freeze action, how to create blur etc. I don't believe there is such thing as a correct technique. I was told by a very well established photographer to stop my long lens down to f5.6-f7 if needs be during the day to maximise depth of field for all the players in shot.. but then backgrounds become an issue. Swings and roundabouts. Works for him, but not for me :shrug:

Telling him to set his camera to one lot of settings does jack all for anyone :)
Click to expand...


Ahhh yeah i know what you mean. All too easy just to increase the ISO without really thinking, instead of adjusting aperture or shutter speed.

Not sure i agree about your correct technique comment :)
 
Rovers_Andy said:
Not sure i agree about your correct technique comment :)
Click to expand...

I don't know why.. let me think of an example.. how many on here use manual during the day? I exclusively shoot manual now, that's what I guess I would believe to be the correct technique. Anyone who uses AV/TV would therefore be using the wrong technique. White balance, who sets theirs to daylight? Who sets theirs to auto? Everyone does it differently! :)
 
purpleclouds said:
I don't know why.. let me think of an example.. how many on here use manual during the day? I exclusively shoot manual now, that's what I guess I would believe to be the correct technique. Anyone who uses AV/TV would therefore be using the wrong technique. White balance, who sets theirs to daylight? Who sets theirs to auto? Everyone does it differently! :)
Click to expand...

OK, yeah i agree with you now, to a point. I only shoot manual now, though was told by one Photographer who shot for the MEN for years to use Shutter priority for a night match
 
Rovers_Andy said:
OK, yeah i agree with you now, to a point. I only shoot manual now, though was told by one Photographer who shot for the MEN for years to use Shutter priority for a night match
Click to expand...

Of course if you are shooting for publication then you do ideally need to be meeting minimum's as far as settings go.. but we should at the same time promote experimentation rather than dismiss 'mistakes' when possible :)

Some people are just bonkers ;)
 
MWHCVT said:
So went out today do put into practice some of tips that I received earlier in this thread

Please let me know if you think I have made any improvements, and areas that further improvement are still required, I am afraid that I was not able to get a lower vantage point just yet, but hope to be able improve on that issue in the near future.

Matt
MWHCVT
Click to expand...

Hi Matt. I had a quick scan of your flickr album. I thought there were some quite good shots on there, but also a lot of (1)backs of players, faces of spectators (2) underexposed (3) missed focus. Personally I would remove the ones that weren't as good as I would have liked, kept the better ones.

Every match is a learning experience, I can vouch for that! Keep at it. You are heading in the right direction. I always shoot AIservo, multi-shot, centre point focus. Unless you can't kneel down, get a cheap pair of waterproof pants from Tesco, just get lower!
 
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DemiLion said:
Miles better!!

1 & 3 are great action shots, although you're still shooting in Tv which can be a bit dodgy apart from panning.

You've also just discovered why Gingers can be a nightmare with high saturation levels!!! :LOL:

Edit: Number relate to the second set! :D
Click to expand...

Thanks, It is nice to know that I have improved, the lighting was really rubbish, similar to last week but I went up to the max ISO 1600 and was able to get to 1/500, what would you suggest as a mode for sports photography, should I go back to full manual mode?

purpleclouds said:
On the contrary to others, I really like number one. It's a bit arty. Too much 'it must be sharp' it must be 'frozen' going on in here!

I think some people are forgetting that not every sports shot needs to be shot as if it were going in a newspaper. Blur is cool for going on walls and what not.

Remember what Soccersnapper said.. it's not about ISO 5million, it's about being creative with what you've got.

Would this, or perhaps this picture look as cool if it were all nice and sharp? I rest my case.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I have to agree that I like the arty stuff myself but my ultimate aim is to make a bit of money from this, as I would like to become a pro, not necessarily at sports but I would like this to be an aspect, this is why I am also looking at upgrade kit etc but I need to get better, I do really like those photo's you have linked.

Photodiva said:
Hi Matt. I had a quick scan of your flickr album. I thought there were some quite good shots on there, but also a lot of (1)backs of players, faces of spectators (2) underexposed (3) missed focus. Personally I would remove the ones that weren't as good as I would have liked, kept the better ones.

Every match is a learning experience, I can vouch for that! Keep at it. You are heading in the right direction. I always shoot AIservo, multi-shot, centre point focus. Unless you can't kneel down, get a cheap pair of waterproof pants from Tesco, just get lower!
Click to expand...

Thanks, I had the settings you used above this week so hopefully on the right track, I take your points on board and will look to improve on that next week, weather permitting. I must take something to sit on but not sure what just yet.

All your input is much appreciated.

Matt
MWHCVT
 
MWHCVT said:
Thanks, I have to agree that I like the arty stuff myself but my ultimate aim is to make a bit of money from this, as I would like to become a pro, not necessarily at sports but I would like this to be an aspect, this is why I am also looking at upgrade kit etc but I need to get better, I do really like those photo's you have linked.
Click to expand...

You shouldn't dismiss the link between arty stuff and making money. If your portfolio was just full of stuff done at a high shutter speed people would find it quite one dimensional. No matter whether it's a creative blur on a rugby player scoring a try, or if it's on a spinning couple during their wedding day first dance, it's a valid technique and don't let people tell you it's 'wrong' and shouldn't do it :)

So long as you understand why it happened on this occasion, all is good.
 
purpleclouds said:
You shouldn't dismiss the link between arty stuff and making money. If your portfolio was just full of stuff done at a high shutter speed people would find it quite one dimensional. No matter whether it's a creative blur on a rugby player scoring a try, or if it's on a spinning couple during their wedding day first dance, it's a valid technique and don't let people tell you it's 'wrong' and shouldn't do it :)

So long as you understand why it happened on this occasion, all is good.
Click to expand...
Im not a great lover of the arty type of shots seen but if youre thinking of making a career out of sports photography then as Phil says your portfolio needs to be quite varied to prove to prospective clients you can handle most things and think out of the box so to speak.
 
purpleclouds said:
You shouldn't dismiss the link between arty stuff and making money. If your portfolio was just full of stuff done at a high shutter speed people would find it quite one dimensional. No matter whether it's a creative blur on a rugby player scoring a try, or if it's on a spinning couple during their wedding day first dance, it's a valid technique and don't let people tell you it's 'wrong' and shouldn't do it :)

So long as you understand why it happened on this occasion, all is good.
Click to expand...

He speaks the truth (y)
 
Well I hope that I have not started to bore you all yet as I am really loving the learning that I am getting from this. Today it was really cold and the light was till really horrid, So I did only shoot the first half. Didn't get many great shots, well great to me!

I managed to get to 1/640 today using f/4.5-5.6 and ISO1600

Please let me know what you think

#10

MWH013-20110129 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

#11

MWH036-20110129 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

#12

MWH037-20110129 by mwhcvt, on Flickr

The full set http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwhcvt/sets/72157625933304406/

Matt
MWHCVT
 
This may sound a little odd, but I thought that I would as, thanks to TP I am learning more and more on a daily basis, and recently found out about DataCo, I was wondering firstly I have never shot at a football match, but how far down the leagues does this ruling apply i.e. if I was to go and shoot at a local amateur teams game would I be in breach of DataCo if I were to put them online.

Secondly, are there any other sports where such rules/organisations exists and place restrictions on publications and access etc.

Your help on this questions and critique of my photos is much appreciated.

Matt
MWHCVT
 
MWHCVT said:
This may sound a little odd, but I thought that I would as, thanks to TP I am learning more and more on a daily basis, and recently found out about DataCo, I was wondering firstly I have never shot at a football match, but how far down the leagues does this ruling apply i.e. if I was to go and shoot at a local amateur teams game would I be in breach of DataCo if I were to put them online.

Secondly, are there any other sports where such rules/organisations exists and place restrictions on publications and access etc.

Your help on this questions and critique of my photos is much appreciated.

Matt
MWHCVT
Click to expand...

Premiership right down to Conference is covered by dataco
 
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