Anyone here on strike tomorrow?

[Mikesphotaes]

Good point!! Let's stop paying for those jobs. Our taxes will be lower.

Oh but as long as you are ok with no education, nobody to collect your bins, nobody to put you out when you are on fire and nobody to fix your broken bones

You're fine without those things right? Or maybe you can look at it differently and that it's not the wages you are paying for but instead services that you need in your life

Not at all.........

...you made the point that public sector workers also pay taxes.....

...........my point was they also have jobs paid for by those taxes!


Why on earth did you need to tell us that everyone pays taxes?

 

[Defiance]

Teachers aren't really inspected these days, only a few in each school are looked at. A good ofsted result is down to the head selling the school to ofsted.

I spend time with teachers and see their attitudes towards their jobs. It is not based on going to 1 school and deciding all schools are like this.

But their output is fully measured e.g. SATS (love them or hate them), GCSE, A Levels etc. You have to have input to get output. Good schools are surely defined by this performance which must be a direct result of teacher's efforts.

I spend a lot of time dealing with people who work for other companies. They will often complain about their employer, or recount an old war story or other, or bad mouth others, or act differently for the cameras etc. That doesn't make them incapable of doing their job though.

 

[Splog]

I keep hearing "We are all living longer" as the excuse for pension cuts

Can anyone supply a link to prove that is a scientifically proven true statement and is life expectancy any different to twenty years ago? and I still don't get why it affects someone's pension payout

 

[Mikesphotaes]

Joe, you forgot to mention the UK Border Agency (immigration Service)

Another what does that have to do with the price of bread moment!

 

[Mikesphotaes]

They agree with me.

My mum took her money out of her pension when we were born and only paid in for 12 years after this. She has a £6,000 a year pension for the rest of her life. She loves it.

My mum agrees with me on how teachers are and it gets her very angry. She gets on her soapbox....

My wife can't believe the stuff teachers say and do. she is shocked but she has seen first hand what they are like when she has done work for the company.

Brilliant answer, to put that Scrivens fella's gas at a peep!

 

[Dale_tem]

But their output is fully measured e.g. SATS (love them or hate them), GCSE, A Levels etc. You have to have input to get output. Good schools are surely defined by this performance which must be a direct result of teacher's efforts.

Schools are pressured to get good results, they ensure they get the results, its not always 100% pupil achievement. Teacher assessment is also used at primary level, so it is open to interpretation. Many secondary schools find pupils drop a level or 2 moving from primary to secondary due to the inflated levels given by the primary school.

Then there are the various allowances which are used to the schools benefit to move them up the league table.

 

[specialman]

I never get worried by what happens on forums and enjoy the debate

Good man.

Still, it concerns me that we've moved away from arguing about raw Vs JPEG

 

[Defiance]

I keep hearing "We are all living longer" as the excuse for pension cuts

Can anyone supply a link to prove that is a scientifically proven true statement and is life expectancy any different to twenty years ago? and I still don't get why it affects someone's pension payout

Some ONS data in this article...


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-population-timebomb-905430.html

When pensions contributions are calculated they are done on a forecast life expectancy of the average person so that a person's pension contributions while working create a fund which can pay the average number of years alive after retirement multiplied by the annual pension entitlement to be paid.

If the average life expectancy increases during the duration a person is making their pension contributions (which can be 45 years or more) then, unless their contributions increase or the expected annual pension entitlement reduces, there will not be enough money in the fund to pay for the extra unaccounted years (the increase in life expectancy). In effect the fund would run out of money eventually and leave people expecting a pension with less or nothing.

 

[Splog]

Another what does that have to do with the price of bread moment!

Perhaps the fact that it was directed at Joe and the winky smilie at the end would have given you a slight but obvious clue that it was a light hearted dig at Joe from previous thread discussions!

 

[Davie]

I'm sure most final salary schemes in the private sector were closed to new employees as mine was, not shutdown altogether, also when asked to pay in more to boost the fund, as I was, the money goes into the fund, not go to paying off the companies debt (as the government want the public sector workers extra contributions to do).
Public workers are rightly angered by this imo.
Maybe if the government did a public audit of the public workers pension fund to show how much was needed to top it up, I'm sure that would bring those dastardly public workers round..

 

[Splog]

Some ONS data in this article...


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-population-timebomb-905430.html

When pensions contributions are calculated they are done on a forecast life expectancy of the average person so that a person's pension contributions while working create a fund which can pay the average number of years alive after retirement multiplied by the annual pension entitlement to be paid.

If the average life expectancy increases during the duration a person is making their pension contributions (which can be 45 years or more) then, unless their contributions increase or the expected annual pension entitlement reduces, there will not be enough money in the fund to pay for the extra unaccounted years (the increase in life expectancy). In effect the fund would run out of money eventually and leave people expecting a pension with less or nothing.

Thanks for the link but it's hardly scientific proof! I'm looking for something that ignores infant deaths and shows a significant change in average ages at death in the last twenty years. The rest of my rant is not aimed at you

Annual pensions are loosely based on interest accrued on the pension fund each year and therefore I still fail to see how extended life expectancy changes anything other than profits for the pension companies?

Also the pension companies take massive charges from the pension fund and I mean massive, even 1% sounds like nothing but 1% of £100,000 is a £1000 a year... every year! ..... just to put this into perspective a £100,000 pension fund is almost worthless as far as a decent pension fund is concerned. Please all remember that most pension companies charge up to about 3% a year..

When you die the pension fund is kept by the pension company! unless your spouse continues to receive a pension but the pension will be reduced to allow for this. Pensions really are the biggest scam going

So where does the money really go? and what charges are you paying for them to hold your money?

 

[Defiance]

Thanks for the link but it's hardly scientific proof! I'm looking for something that ignores infant deaths and shows a significant change in average ages at death in the last twenty years. The rest of my rant is not aimed at you

Annual pensions are loosely based on interest accrued on the pension fund each year and therefore I still fail to see how extended life expectancy changes anything other than profits for the pension companies?

Also the pension companies take massive charges from the pension fund and I mean massive, even 1% sounds like nothing but 1% of £100,000 is a £1000 a year... every year! ..... just to put this into perspective a £100,000 pension fund is almost worthless as far as a decent pension fund is concerned. Please all remember that most pension companies charge up to about 3% a year..

When you die the pension fund is kept by the pension company! unless your spouse continues to receive a pension but the pension will be reduced to allow for this. Pensions really are the biggest scam going

So where does the money really go? and what charges are you paying for them to hold your money?

You're welcome

The data is from the Office for National Statistics who will have access to all birth, death and retirement data over many many years. Therefore the results should be of scientific merit and certainly valid. The article does show some of the data you are looking for in it.

On the other part, which I know is not aimed at me

Pension companies invest the money in many different investments and do not rely just on banking the money and earning interest. For example, they invest heavily in company shares which yield returns in share price growth and dividend payments which can easily outstrip interest (but these may go down as well as up).

As these are companies, they have staff to pay and overheads and are in business to make a profit (none of us work or own a company for nothing). Therefore they are entitled to charge and these would be dictated to an extent my competitive and market pressures, so overcharging is no more likely than any other competitive market sector.

Why does it cost more to these companies if someone lives longer: A person pays an amount into a fund until they retire at which point the contributions stop and the rate of growth of the fund reduces (as payments out start, contributions in disappear, and investment earnings decline as the fund declines). Eventually the fund will decrease to nothing (which should be at the expected average age of death). If people live longer than was expected when the pension contributions were originally calculated then the pension is underfunded and must therefore pay less to someone per annum when they retire to make it last the extra years that people are now living. That or contributions have to be increased.

 

[Blue Moon 7]

I work with schools, a recent school paid for me to come in for educational consultancy to work through government documents and to prepare for their ofsted inspection.

For all those who say I speak rubbish, On average I visit 2 schools a week and have door 8 years. I work with the senior management team, head or whole staff. I do a lot of looking at the effectiveness of teaching and often hear the phrase 'they are retiring soon when talking about teachers with poor performance.

There might be procedures in place,but you will find that a lot of heads find it difficult to get rid of troublesome members of staff.

I am not saying that their aren't hardworking teachers, but there are more who don't work hard and are lazy teachers who are far far far from effective.

There are lots of jobs available in teaching. It might not be in your local area,but there are lots due to the number of older teachers retiring each year.

The salary I was refering to was the London wages and although might only go up to 36,000 out of London without responsibilities, it is hard not to take on these responsibilities as it is expected of you, so they will end up on more.

Do not think I am nieve when it comes to teachers. My mum was a teacher for 30 years and my wife was an assistant head. My company and my whole life is education. I have a dim of teachers because I come across so many bad teachers. My wife cannot believe the things said to me by teachers or the lack of knowledge/sense some teachers have.

You may be a good teacher or your partner may be a good teacher, you may be at an excellent school, do not be fooled in to thinking all schools are like this.

Spent a long time working in the public sector and worked like a dog for years with no overtime, etc. Also got assaulted 3 times (once with a hammer in the head, and spat on many, many times). My partner was on strike today, her department has had massive cuts and she also works like a dog with long hours and doesn't get paid overtime. We both work with some of the most vulnerable people in society and do it because we are dedicated to helping people.

We had a discussion just the other day about how the public sector was being drained by 'consultants' that were very expensive and are really just a drain on resources. Many consultants are clearly bright in terms of seeing a gap and a way to make easy money because of the way that many public sector services are stretched because of a lack of resources. It's a bit of a circular argument in many ways. Wouldn't it be lovely if public sector teaching staff had the time and resources to prepare for ofsted inspections instead of having to pay consultants to do it for them because they are too bloody busy because of cuts.

By the way, I have acted as an expert witness / consultant on many occasions in my profession. Never once charged more than my usual hourly rate in my daytime job and many times did it free. That's my choice because I care. I also work with teams to prepare for ofsted inspections.......doing that now actually. But it's part of my job. I usually do that at weekends, in my own time.

It must be a great feeling going into schools and telling dedicated staff, teachers and headteachers that are on their knees how to do their jobs. I really don't know how we managed without consultants in the old days

By the way, I am not a Teacher but some of the crap in this thread is beyond belief.

Thatcher's famous quote "there is no such thing as society" is actually borne out by reading this thread. Some people won't actually get what I mean by that but many will.

Chris

 

[TriggerHappy]

From reading this thread, those within the teaching industry have said that poor performers are eventually moved on. I imagine though, that like any other industry, these poor performers are able to find employment elsewhere in the same profession with other schools many times over before becoming unemployable. The net effect is that the problem only gets moved around in circles and thus many schools will continue to have the bell curve.

I also don't imagine that poor performers are left alone by those above them and would imagine that like any good employer, a school will try and engage and develop poor performers rather than having a hire and fire culture which would create turmoil and insecurity in schools and make teaching an even less attractive route of employment.

Schooling is a results based business now with ever increasing scrutiny. It will become harder for poor performers to escape attention

In a perfect world, every employer will have only high performing staff. The reality is there will inevitably always be a mix whether we like it or not.

Absolutely agree with all you've said here. It just seems flawed that teachers known to be poor can't be removed for that reason and that when they are finally moved on they likely find a similar job elsewhere. This is going far from the discussion on the strikes though!

 

[Splog]

Eventually the fund will decrease to nothing (which should be at the expected average age of death). If people live longer than was expected when the pension contributions were originally calculated then the pension is underfunded and must therefore pay less to someone per annum when they retire to make it last the extra years that people are now living. That or contributions have to be increased.

No, that is so not true! The pension companies only pay out based on income received on the pension fund. I understand that they have costs but even 1% is far too much. Some people with a 3 % charge actually have almost nothing left. Consider investing £100,000 in a pension fund at the age of twenty and assuming no growth in the fund, when you retire at the age of 65 i.e. 45 years later the pension company will have taken £45,000 ish out of your fund (ok, simple maths used here) My point is that it does not cost this and it has nothing to do with expenses other than commission. If the fund isn't growing they still take the charges and the sad thing is most people don't understand this.

 

[Splog]

You're welcome

The data is from the Office for National Statistics who will have access to all birth, death and retirement data over many many years. Therefore the results should be of scientific merit and certainly valid. The article does show some of the data you are looking for in it.

No, no,no, no ..... It's called 'spin' and has no scientific value whatsoever. :shake:

 

[Defiance]

No, no,no, no ..... It's called 'spin' and has no scientific value whatsoever. :shake:

So the statistics produced by the Office for National Statistics from real data are not real statistics and made up ? I'm sure that some spin gets applied but doubt very much that the underlying statistics are false unless you can prove to the contrary.

 

[Splog]

So the statistics produced by the Office for National Statistics from real data are not real statistics and made up ? I'm sure that some spin gets applied but doubt very much that the underlying statistics are false unless you can prove to the contrary.

it's government funded and it's dubious at best. It's the spin that's the problem! Let's try to find some un-biased data?

 

[EOS_JD]

you contradict yourself. Earlier you said that a union should only provide you with a free solicitor.



But in fact your later post is much more accurate. The union also has the responsibility to ensure you are working in a safe and respectable environment along with the employer

Actually the HSE is responsible for that - The Union don't have ANY responsibility for that but will get involved to support employees if there is an issue over H&S.

 

[EOS_JD]

Yes and no.....if I don't continue to pay in to it regularly, I don't earn any interest on it at all.....so if I've paid (hypothetically) £10,000 in to it so far, and I stop paying in to it, when I reach 70 or whatever the retirement age will be by then (probably 120!), then I'll get £10,000 worth of pension (which in 90 years time will be enough for half a litre of petrol!).....so it's stale money, I can't take it out without losing money through a penalties, and if I don't pay in to it, it loses it's worth.....it's the only downside to what was otherwise, a decent pension, with good returns.....

.....only now, not so much!! :thumbsdown:

That's not true. Yours (and my) public pension is index linked. You are free to take out all of the money at any time and put it into a private pension scheme but take the advice of ANY financial consultant and they will tell you to leave it where it is (as I did) because it's worth more and is far more secure than any private pension scheme!

My private pension fund that I've been paying into for quite a while now has dropped about 15% in value recent times. Even if it picks up, when it comes to buying an annuity it will be worth very little at the end of it as we are living longer - annuities will cost far more! Public workers don't need to worry about that unless they've taken out a private scheme.

I understand the grief for people that pensions will be lower but the public sector pensions have been too good for too long.

I miss my public sector pension scheme. I have a public pension that I paid into for 12 years so it does affect me too. I also miss the security of my old job (public workers are still far more secure than private sector workers). They may be slightly less secure than they have ever known but compare that to the private sector!

Personally I think public sector workers need a reality check. I've been there - I was also a union steward - and to be honest most of the guys on the union were a complete waste of space moaning about pointless things instead of getting on with their job. I sat next to an alcoholic who would have been given decent support ion the private sector instead of left alone as the bosses were scared to deal wit the issues!

My 12 years with the council were mixed. As a young lad I had great times but as I got older I saw the cracks and the way people took things for granted. I don't buy all the rubbish being spoken about teachers - Yes its a tough job at times but my mate and my sister in law who are both teachers only laugh at the number of days I have to work and brag about their job!! They play the cards their way depending on what they want.

We all have tough jobs to do these days and we all need to getr on together to fix the mess we are all in. We are all seeing the pain. It just pains me to see the public sector think they are hard done by when in fact they are only coming close to the pain most of the private sector have been fe4eling for years (my last pay rise was 5 years ago and my last pay rise above inflation was 7 years ago)!!

THink I've said enough and will hide my head for the flack. But having 12 years public service and 11 years private sector experience I'm aware of issues on both sides as I feel it but I don't agree with the stance taken by the public sector when they see the state the economy is in.

 

[tiler65]

I shot a wedding yesterday, I was the only one taking photos, I didn't know that Uncle Bob was even in a union.

 

[barneyrubble]

I also think it is worth noting that those in the public sector who have a degree earn on average 5.7% less than those in the private sector.

but get on average a 20% better pension - even after these cuts....

 

[Byker28i]

I am not on strike....yet !

Our union (fbu, fire brigades union) has not balloted for it yet but rest assured if and when they do, I will be supporting it 110% !!!

Pension aside, I thought one reason the firefighters were paid low salaries (lets be honest low salaries for what they do) was that there is a huge waiting list for people wanting to become firemen.

 

[DemiLion]

I shot a wedding yesterday, I was the only one taking photos, I didn't know that Uncle Bob was even in a union.

Blasted Closed Shops!!!

 

[joescrivens]

How is asking you to contribute more to a pension cutting salary? Your paid the same but you are investing for your future. If you don't like it, opt out of the pension and start your own.

it seems like you haven't been listening.

the increase in pension is not going into your own pension. So you are not adding anything to your future.

 

[Byker28i]

I also think it is worth noting that those in the public sector who have a degree earn on average 5.7% less than those in the private sector.

Is this after the private sector has suffered over the last 5 years. We've had half the staff made redundant, working longer hours, took pay cuts to keep our jobs and had no pay rises. This years pay rise was 1%. In real terms we're worse off than 10 years ago.

In the same period, we've seen public sector workers still get pay rises. Teachers have had 2.5% (ish) each year since 2006, out local council workers have had more. Nurses negotiated a decent pay rise also (note by decent I'm comparing to mine as stated above).

If you speak to anyone not associated with a public sector worker, there's little sympathy left.

Also, can someone have a word with their union leaders. If you're going to make a point, how about at least having a go at the decision makers payouts. Look at the outrageous payouts for MP's when they leave term, their generous pension schemes and lets not forget expenses. If the country is being asked to tighten their belt, lets see some leadership from the top, across all parties.

 

[joescrivens]

Not at all.........

...you made the point that public sector workers also pay taxes.....

...........my point was they also have jobs paid for by those taxes!


Why on earth did you need to tell us that everyone pays taxes?

go back and read the post i replied to when i said it and all will be revealed

 

[Dale_tem]

it seems like you haven't been listening.

the increase in pension is not going into your own pension. So you are not adding anything to your future.

But their pension is still far more than they have been contributing

 

[Richard King]

_______________________

Thats a line, drawn

Tell me. How should we afford to pay for pensions, and balance the books, and not destroy all services, and not disenfranchise business to the point UK PLC is worthless?

Are we all in agreement that something has to be done?

 

[joescrivens]

But their pension is still far more than they have been contributing

that's not what I was replying to. I was replying to the comment that the increase in pension rate was going to add to the teachers pension when it won't.

 

[joescrivens]

_______________________

Thats a line, drawn

Tell me. How should we afford to pay for pensions, and balance the books, and not destroy all services, and not disenfranchise business to the point UK PLC is worthless?

Are we all in agreement that something has to be done?

That's not a line

this is a line

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[Richard King]

just an anecdote

When I was 8, my neighbour was 90 something, and said to me

"I was told to fight in the Boer war, I did, I was told to fight in the first world war, I did, I was told to get a job with a good pension, I did, I worked hard all my life, and now I get £1.90 a week. Now I hear that my pension wasn't indexed linked, and it is worthless> A couple of pounds seemed a lot to me when I started working, it is worthless now. No matter what you do in life, they will move the goal posts on you. Now they want to sell my house and move me into a home"

anyway this is what he said to me a few weeks later

"Im going to take all my savings and go on that QE2 and see the world and get a massage off of all of those fillies and enjoy my money"

He went on the ship, came back and died 2 weeks later

 

[mercedes]

Funny how the reality of the over inflated pensions and the demands to retain them gets regularly sidetracked by making vague comedy comments.
Everyone, apart from the public sector employees, can see that they're obsessively greedy to make these demands in the face of financial restraints on everyone else in the private sector.

 

[cambsno]

Why are the public sector suprised at the anger expressed by us in the private sector. When we suffer big job losses or hits on pensions, or stealth taxes to pay for more public sector workers do they show sympathy? No.

 

[joescrivens]

Why are the public sector suprised at the anger expressed by us in the private sector. When we suffer big job losses or hits on pensions, or stealth taxes to pay for more public sector workers do they show sympathy? No.

what do you mean "do they show sympathy? no"

what happens? You start a thread about it and all the public sector workers come on and say "Unlucky for you, you're greedy, you don't live in the real world, you're poor at your job, we have it worse"

or is it that because the actions on the private sector don't cause people to have to take a day off work, it just doesn't actually get brought up and asked about? Show me one thread where somebody has been made redundant in the private sector and all of the public sector workers have lambasted them.

I think you'll find that the only bashing that occurs is from those in the private sector onto those in the public sector, largely because it affects them and a thread gets started because they come on bitching about how they were inconvenienced for a day. Start a poll asking if those in the public sector have sympathy for anyone in the private sector who gets made redundant or loses a pension benefit. I bet the results would prove your comment incorrect

 

[Dale_tem]

You obviously don't realise how tough it is working somewhere you know won't go bust, you won't come in tomorrow to find the school/hospital/council has gone into receivership. The stress of not knowing must be unbearable.

You are so lucky working in the private sector with all that job security

 

[tiler65]

That's not a line

this is a line

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your line is broken...says a lot about public sector mentality (not all but some) regarding this debate.

 

[joescrivens]

Your line is broken...says a lot about public sector mentality (not all but some) regarding this debate.

actually it says a lot about the TP website it's not broken, it just appears so when the line is displayed

also, i work in the private sector so that theory is out

 

[nilagin]

I'm with Clarkson. Take 'em all outside and all strikers.

 

[Galaxy66]

Unfortunately with disputes that hit the news either the media are never fed the full facts or are so biassed against strikes that they do not inform the public of the full facts.

I have not taken too much interest in this strike personally...rightly or wrongly.. but I bet all the facts are not spelt out by the media.

Speaking from experience I was involved in a local 13 week strike and the public were being fed a figure we had refused to accept to return back to work, we were made to look really irresponsible for not accepting the offer but what the public were not told was that it was a 3 year deal, we had to give up all manner of hourly payment supplements for bad conditions and were to have shorter breaks, etc, the list was endless effectively cancelling most of the figure offered.

So when you read about disputes bear in mind there are always two sides to the story and invariably you will not be told the full facts fairly from both sides especially the employees!.

I firmly believe in the right to strike, without which employers would simply take advantage of their employees.