Camera = Pervert? It just got more extreme.

[Byker28i]

don't cross the Devon border Jon - maniacs with axes rule our streets and no photographer is safe [/paranoia]

(incidentally I was out with the camera today - in sidmouth no less - and no one gave a monkeys )

Sidmouth full of Oaps? Probably couldn't see that far

 

[big soft moose]

Folk festival week - the streets are full of people, many of them with cameras (although the streets are also full of people who've had too much to drink - police are seeking two seperate offenders over unprovoked assaults - neither of which involved cameras afaik )

 

[MartynK]

Hmm. Our local paper publishes the usual reports of crimes and court cases. Most of them seem to involve booze and breach of the peace and/or assault, and solicitors arguing that their client "had been drinking and regrets what happened" in mitigation. I've never read one where photography played any role.

 

[Deleted member 34016]

can we just clear somehting up... this was a drunk guy walking around with an axe ? I mean surely thats a crime in itself?

Thats Sidmouth for you

I too hope the victim makes a100% recovery and then SUES his Ass off

Les

 

[Lindsay D]

but the thing is even if it was because the victim had a camera , the perpetrator clearly didn't have all his paddles in the water , so its hardly photographers being demonised

... a drunken nutter who nevertheless held the view that photographers were paedos. That's the problem Pete, it's a widely held view - so photographers are quite likely to encounter nutters/police officers/parents/drunks/newspapers who also unfortunately share that view - widening the scope of likely consequences/problems for those of us who go out with a camera.

 

[big soft moose]

... a drunken nutter who nevertheless held the view that photographers were paedos. That's the problem Pete, it's a widely held view - so photographers are quite likely to encounter nutters/police officers/parents/drunks/newspapers who also unfortunately share that view - widening the scope of likely consequences/problems for those of us who go out with a camera.

But drunk nutters holding the view is hardly evidence of an issue - like i said earlier last year some drunk/paranoid headcase attacked a bloke because he had a lotus elise - is that evidence that theres a major issue for Elise drivers ?

Or is it just evidence that those who are drunk/mentally ill hold all sorts of irrational views ?

I've been going out with a camera for over 20 years and its never been a problem for me - probably because I treat other people with respect, courtsey, and common sense.

 

[Lindsay D]

But drunk nutters holding the view is hardly evidence of an issue - like i said earlier last year some drunk/paranoid headcase attacked a bloke because he had a lotus elise - is that evidence that theres a major issue for Elise drivers ?

Or is it just evidence that those who are drunk/mentally ill hold all sorts of irrational views ?

I've been going out with a camera for over 20 years and its never been a problem for me - probably because I treat other people with respect, courtsey, and common sense.

I've never seen any evidence that there is an issue for Elise drivers , but I've seen plenty of evidence that photographers are being harassed and harangued whilst engaging in their hobby in public - it's a well worn subject as you know.

I would think that most of us treat other people with the utmost respect but sadly that doesn't always prevent a hostile reaction. I would go so far as to say that an increasingly large proportion of our population does indeed hold irrational views which are usually completely baseless and gathered from an over reliance on the tabloids.

 

[PMN]

it's a widely held view - so photographers are quite likely to encounter nutters/police officers/parents/drunks/newspapers who also unfortunately share that view - widening the scope of likely consequences/problems for those of us who go out with a camera.

I've seen plenty of evidence that photographers are being harassed and harangued whilst engaging in their hobby in public - it's a well worn subject as you know.

I would think that most of us treat other people with the utmost respect but sadly that doesn't always prevent a hostile reaction. I would go so far as to say that an increasingly large proportion of our population does indeed hold irrational views which are usually completely baseless and gathered from an over reliance on the tabloids.

I can't help feeling you're being hugely overdramatic about this. The "plenty of evidence" you refer to in my experience is one incident cropping up every 6 months or so which is hardly the enormous problem you imply exists!

 

[MartynK]

I've been inolved in photography since I was a kid, and I've never had any problems with this sort of thing either, although I don't specifically photograph other people or their kids as a rule.

It's a good idea to be aware of local attitudes and beliefs in some parts of the world though. Some Hong Kong Chinese - and I daresay this applies in China too - hold to an old superstition that the camera steals part of your soul when somone takes your photograph. I'm sure there are other places where people have their own reasons for getting antsy about it too, and I respect their feelings even if they seem irrational to me.

 

[big soft moose]

I can't help feeling you're being hugely overdramatic about this. The "plenty of evidence" you refer to in my experience is one incident cropping up every 6 months or so which is hardly the enormous problem you imply exists!

Exactly - and on those relatively rare occasions half the time at least its at least partly the fault of the photographer concerned - for example if you think about the various videos with security guards (most of which have nothing to do with paedohillia anyway) while the guard may be wrong to approach the photographer isnt exactly helping calm the situation out either

On one occasion last year i had to ask a photographer to stop blocking a cliff path with his tripod (note not to stop taking photos, but merely to be considerate of other users) - he imediately went off into a rant about how "he was being persecuted and I supose you think i'm a paedophile/terorist, and ive got a right to my hobby and blah blah blah"

I bet in his tiny mind that went down as more evidence of persecution/demonisation , when in practice all that was needed was "sure mate no problem I hadnt realised i was in their way"

 

[PMN]

On one occasion last year i had to ask a photographer to stop blocking a cliff path with his tripod (note not to stop taking photos, but merely to be considerate of other users) - he imediately went off into a rant about how "he was being persecuted and I supose you think i'm a paedophile/terorist, and ive got a right to my hobby and blah blah blah"

I bet in his tiny mind that went down as more evidence of persecution/demonisation , when in practice all that was needed was "sure mate no problem I hadnt realised i was in their way"

A classic case of a photographer creating a problem and then blaming someone else/society/whoever for it. Some people seem to work on the assumption that the photographer is never at fault when in fact I think many photographers create these problems themselves by handling perfectly innocent situations inappropriately.

 

[Leathertramp]

I think this says more about the Forestry worker than the photographer. Although on a rare trip to my hometown and taking photos of the historic market place, I was approached by two policemen and cautioned with the terrorism act for 'taking photos in a popular and built up residence' or some such nonsense :shrug:

 

[big soft moose]

I think this says more about the Forestry worker than the photographer. Although on a rare trip to my hometown and taking photos of the historic market place, I was approached by two policemen and cautioned with the terrorism act for 'taking photos in a popular and built up residence' or some such nonsense :shrug:

I don't think in this case anyone thinks the photographer was at all to blame - it was an unprovoked attack from behind while he was walking along. ( I don't actually think the fact that he was a photographer was relevant - from behind his camera may not have even been visible)

In your case do you mean 'cautioned' , or just spoken to ?

 

[Leathertramp]

The only real relevance to the photographer was because the article indicated that a witness heard the attacker mention something about paedophile. Someone getting 2+2 and ending up with 5 again.
With regard to my incident, the police ID'd me, gave me a slip (SA88?? - it was 4yrs ago) noting my 'movements' and told me to attend a police station and positively ID myself there. I asked 'Am I being cautioned here' and they said 'yes' :shake:

 

[PMN]

The only real relevance to the photographer was because the article indicated that a witness heard the attacker mention something about paedophile. Someone getting 2+2 and ending up with 5 again.
With regard to my incident, the police ID'd me, gave me a slip (SA88?? - it was 4yrs ago) noting my 'movements' and told me to attend a police station and positively ID myself there. I asked 'Am I being cautioned here' and they said 'yes' :shake:

4 years ago even the police/PCSO's didn't understand the anti-terrorism laws which is why we went through a spate of photographers being stopped and questioned under the 'anti-terrorism act'. Now they're much more on top of it and such instances are few and far between.

 

[big soft moose]

The only real relevance to the photographer was because the article indicated that a witness heard the attacker mention something about paedophile. Someone getting 2+2 and ending up with 5 again.
:

yeah , local reports indicate that he thought the guy was 'lurking outside the toilets' - hence the paedophile accusation (there'd been some flasher activity at those toilets previously) the camera was probably incidental.


But like i said earlier he could equally have done it for any or no reason - anyone who attacks a complete stranger with an axe is probably something of a fruit loop anyway

 

[simonblue]

So going after someone with an axe is fairly normal if people are a bit worse for wear?

The photographer bit is an excuse, the mental health bit is a reason. People get drunk and occasionally start mouthing off, being drunk is their 'excuse' and as much as I think you shouldn't drink at all if you get like that people still do. Irritating and sad as it is, to a point we have to just accept that will always happen. Going after someone with an axe isn't drunken behaviour, that's a much deeper problem than just having a few too many beers and needs to be looked into much more seriously.

I have been round drunken behavior a lot,and seen a lot worse than this attack ,people have been killed because of people drunken behavior,in my town some poor person was kick to death by it,nothing to do with mental health,i think the only reason an axe was used because it had it on him.

I have seen people smash people in the face with broken beer glasses,in the the US i saw someone go for a gun out of the boot of his car,in South Africa so many people carry guns,your not allow guns in pubs or nightclub.

In the Second World War Hitler's death squad drank so much it became a very big problem among its ranks.
And in Africa today they give boy soldiers so much alcohol to get them to fight.
So please don't tell me alcohol has no effect on some people behavior :shake:

 

[big soft moose]

So please don't tell me alcohol has no effect on some people behavior :shake:

I don't think anyone is saying that - my point was that not everyone who drinks to excess gets violent, and many of those that do may be predisposed to violence anyway. If you kick someone to death , or attack them with an axe, without provocation then the chances are good you arent right in the head

at the end of the day we don't know the facts - but the court sent the guy for psychriatric assesment, which suggests they (with a lot more info than we have) thought that it was more than man gets drunk and acts rashly

 

[PMN]

So please don't tell me alcohol has no effect on some people behavior :shake:

If you're going to go off on a little rant then at least read what I've written before quoting me and firing off like that. Nowhere have I even vaguely implied alcohol doesn't affect people, after working in music for almost 20 years and gigging in 40+ countries with wildly differing cultures I'm very aware of how alcohol and drugs affect people, I don't need it explaining to me.

 

[MartynK]

I have been round drunken behavior a lot,and seen a lot worse than this attack ,people have been killed because of people drunken behavior,in my town some poor person was kick to death by it,nothing to do with mental health,i think the only reason an axe was used because it had it on him.

I have seen people smash people in the face with broken beer glasses,in the the US i saw someone go for a gun out of the boot of his car,in South Africa so many people carry guns,your not allow guns in pubs or nightclub.

In the Second World War Hitler's death squad drank so much it became a very big problem among its ranks.
And in Africa today they give boy soldiers so much alcohol to get them to fight.
So please don't tell me alcohol has no effect on some people behavior :shake:

Of course alcohol has an effect on peoples' behaviour. It can make them very aggressive, but it can also make them amiable, funny, amorous, garrolous, sleepy and a few other things. It's a depressant and some psychologists think it exacerbates existing personality traits by depressing (suppressing?) inhibitions.

Carrying - legally owned - firearms is not nearly as common as it used to be in South Africa. The laws were amended a while back, and there's a fairly long, and expensive, licensing process involved which could take a year or more at one point; coupled with what many of us saw as state sanctioned incompetence at the CFR to deter people from applying. Many dealers just gave up and went out of business, or turned to selling other goods. This has improved a lot, but several senior officers at the CFR have just been suspended on suspicion of corruption, and it remains to be seen what impact that will have. Bars and nightclubs can make their own rules, and most clubs do check for weapons, but I don't think there's anything in the law about this. I'm a bit old for clubbing, but I've carried into lots of bars and licensed restaurants without any issues.

What do you mean by Hitler's death squads? I'm not challenging you on this at all, I'm just interested. Are you referring to the SS - mainly Totenkopfverbande - units that were involved in mass murder in the camps and the Einsatzgruppen who operated in the east? Alcohol abuse did become a problem in some cases.

 

[PMN]

Of course alcohol has an effect on peoples' behaviour. It can make them very aggressive, but it can also make them amiable, funny, amorous, garrolous, sleepy and a few other things. It's a depressant and some psychologists think it exacerbates existing personality traits by depressing (suppressing?) inhibitions.

I had no idea that view was thought to be correct by some professional people but that's what I've thought for years. I don't think alcohol 'makes' you a certain way as such, I just think it allows your personality traits to come out easier. If those traits are generally pleasant then you'll probably stay pleasant after a few beers, if you're not too nice a person generally then alcohol probably won't do much to improve that.

Getting violent after alcohol doesn't mean the alcohol itself made you violent, I think that has to be in you to start with for it to come out under most circumstances unless you're being physically attacked and instinct kicks in. Going after someone with an axe is a pretty clear indication of something being wired slightly wrong to me.

 

[big soft moose]

What do you mean by Hitler's death squads? I'm not challenging you on this at all, I'm just interested. Are you referring to the SS - mainly Totenkopfverbande - units that were involved in mass murder in the camps and the Einsatzgruppen who operated in the east? Alcohol abuse did become a problem in some cases.

without making excuses for them, i wouldn't be suprised to find that in those cases the dependence on alcohol was due to what they were doing.

Unless someone is a total sociopath doing that kind of thing has to take a toll on the psyche

 

[MartynK]

I had no idea that view was thought to be correct by some professional people but that's what I've thought for years. I don't think alcohol 'makes' you a certain way as such, I just think it allows your personality traits to come out easier. If those traits are generally pleasant then you'll probably stay pleasant after a few beers, if you're not too nice a person generally then alcohol probably won't do much to improve that.

Getting violent after alcohol doesn't mean the alcohol itself made you violent, I think that has to be in you to start with for it to come out under most circumstances unless you're being physically attacked and instinct kicks in. Going after someone with an axe is a pretty clear indication of something being wired slightly wrong to me.

Indeed. It's a very plausible theory and there are plenty of examples. In vino veritas - and similar phrases in other languages - means that people are more likely to say what they really think, and tell the truth, when they're drunk. I think this translates into behaviour too, and buried personality traits - that people normally conceal for various reasons - emerge when they've been drinking. Suppressing inhibitions makes people more likely to act without thinking about the consequences. It can be quite funny; the shy, reserved, person who has a few drinks and gives a star performance during karaoke, or ordering the lens you've been dreaming about when you're plastered and not really thinking about how you're going to pay for it, but there's a darker side too. Normally sensible people can throw caution to the winds and engage in reckless sexual activity, heedless of the risk of disease and pregnancy; and mild mannered men become argumentative and try to pick fights, which they would never do sober. I don't think drink makes us behave out of character, it reveals another aspect of our character. I think we've all seen this. Jekyll and Hyde perhaps?

 

[PMN]

That's almost exactly what my views on alcohol are, interesting to hear it's also thought of like that by some people who actually do know what they're talking about!

 

[simonblue]

If you're going to go off on a little rant then at least read what I've written before quoting me and firing off like that. Nowhere have I even vaguely implied alcohol doesn't affect people, after working in music for almost 20 years and gigging in 40+ countries with wildly differing cultures I'm very aware of how alcohol and drugs affect people, I don't need it explaining to me.

Your quote
( So going after someone with an axe is fairly normal if people are a bit worse for wear?)
No where in the the report does it say how much drink he had consumed,we don't know,it was your quote saying he was only a little bit worse for wear not me.
If the report come back and he has no mental health issues,then will people accept that it was the drink ?

Its just its getting very hard out there for people with mental health issues,report like this don't help they just give out the idea that people with theses issues are dangerous,when in fact you're more likely to be harmed than do the harming.
And in a lot of cases people tried to use the excuse of mental health for their behavior,instead of facing the facts that it might just be the drink.

 

[PMN]

in a lot of cases people tried to use the excuse of mental health for their behavior,instead of facing the facts that it might just be the drink.

I think you'll probably find most people would much rather admit to having a drink problem than admit they have mental health issues, that being the case I can't see many people blaming strange behaviour on mental health rather than alcohol.

Its just its getting very hard out there for people with mental health issues,report like this don't help they just give out the idea that people with theses issues are dangerous.

Mental health issues show themselves in thousands of different ways. I don't believe for one second the vast majority of the public automatically expect those with mental health issues to be dangerous.

 

[MartynK]

without making excuses for them, i wouldn't be suprised to find that in those cases the dependence on alcohol was due to what they were doing.

Unless someone is a total sociopath doing that kind of thing has to take a toll on the psyche

Probably. There is quite a bit of controversy about why men participated in mass murder, and to what extent they were compelled to, but I find it hard to believe that most of them were so indoctrinated, and inured to what they were doing, that they lost all vestiges of their humanity and sense of right and wrong. Taking refuge in alcohol would be one way of blunting the reality.

FWIW, there's enough evidence to show that mechanised killing (gas vans and gas chambers) were developed not only to make it easier to kill large numbers of people quickly, but to reduce the psychological stress - by distancing the killers from their victims - the men experienced when they shot them at short range. The SS also deputised Ukranians for this.

 

[Lindsay D]

That's almost exactly what my views on alcohol are, interesting to hear it's also thought of like that by some people who actually do know what they're talking about!

So if somebody has a view which differs to your own, then they don't know what they're talking about?

In your response earlier you say that my evidence is based on 'one incident in 6 months' - you must be quoting somebody else because nowhere did I say that, let alone discuss my experiences or those of the many other photographers I know. There have also been a number of threads on the forum relating to the behaviour of the public towards photographers (in relation to children). It's not the rarity you seem to think it is.

 

[big soft moose]

It's not the rarity you seem to think it is.

its also nowhere near as common as you are making out - count the number of threads in which its reffered to , then count the far greater number recounting photographic days where nothing untoward (of this nature) happened.

i'm not saying it never happens... there are certainly a number of paranoid nitwits about , but its not a regular occurrence, nor is there evidence that photographers are regularly or systematically 'demonised'

 

[PMN]

So if somebody has a view which differs to your own, then they don't know what they're talking about?

No, you've somehow massively misunderstood me. When I made that comment I was referring directly to the previous poster who was talking about people in the medical profession, therefore the people who "know what they're talking about" I was referring to were those professional people. I'm not quite sure how you misread that to mean I was talking about people disagreeing with me. :shrug:

 

[PMN]

There have also been a number of threads on the forum relating to the behaviour of the public towards photographers (in relation to children).

How many of those in the last 2 years have related to specific incidents? I'm not expecting you to know offhand but if you do some research you'll probably find it's less than you think. These things have a habit of sticking in our memory making it feel like they happen more frequently than they actually do.

In your response earlier you say that my evidence is based on 'one incident in 6 months' - you must be quoting somebody else because nowhere did I say that, let alone discuss my experiences or those of the many other photographers I know.

Hmm... Let me refresh your memory with what I actually said:

I can't help feeling you're being hugely overdramatic about this. The "plenty of evidence" you refer to in my experience is one incident cropping up every 6 months or so which is hardly the enormous problem you imply exists!

If you can point out where I said you'd even mentioned the 6 month thing please do, I'm having a little difficulty locating it.