Did the Archbishop of Canterbury just apologise for bombing the Nazis?

AHILL

AHILL

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According to some press releases this morning the Archbishop of Canterbury has apologised on behalf of the British for bombing Dresden?
apparently he is now denying making such a statement.

http://metro.co.uk/2015/02/14/did-t...just-apologise-for-bombing-the-nazis-5062719/

I simply dont understand this apology thing, Why anyone should apologise for something our ancestors did is beyond me.

I dont hear Merkel apologising for flattening the midlands!
 
The posted link reports him as saying:-
‘Whatever the arguments, events here 70 years ago left a deep wound and diminished all our humanity.
‘So as a follower of Jesus I stand here among you with a profound feeling of regret and deep sorrow.’
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Whilst I am no supporter of the Archbishop, I fail to see how anyone could not feel "regret and deep sorrow" at what happened.
A woman was interviewed on the TV last night ... a young girl in Dresden when this occurred, she told of being burned severely and to this day she is traumatised when visiting the location where it happened. She wasn't a Nazi, just a young girl (amongst many innocent civilians on both 'sides') who was scarred physically and emotionally by the events that occurred ... personally I think she deserves an apology.
 
AHILL said:
I dont hear Merkel apologising for flattening the midlands!
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I don't hear our Prime Minister apologising.

Bit of a non story really.
 
Dresden was a war crime. Shameful. Disgusting. Inhuman.
All the British commanders and decision makers involved should have been tried alongside the nazis for crimes against humanity.
 
ghoti said:
Dresden was a war crime. Shameful. Disgusting. Inhuman.
All the British commanders and decision makers involved should have been tried alongside the nazis for crimes against humanity.
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My grandfather never had a good word to say about Churchill. He regarded him as no more than a warmonger.


Steve.
 
ghoti said:
Dresden was a war crime. Shameful. Disgusting. Inhuman.
All the British commanders and decision makers involved should have been tried alongside the nazis for crimes against humanity.
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Rubbish,Hitler brought total war on Europe with the consent of most German population,you reap what you sow
 
simonblue said:
Rubbish,Hitler brought total war on Europe with the consent of most German population,you reap what you sow
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It was a disgusting and vile attack on civilians.
Churchill and his generals should have hung for it.
 
My instinct and my heart agree with you.

My head, however, tells me that you stop, by any means and as quickly as possible, a regime that has systematically and cold-bloodedly slaughtered at least 6 million, has enslaved millions more and is set on continental domination.

Any means.
 
simonblue said:
Rubbish,Hitler brought total war on Europe with the consent of most German population,you reap what you sow
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Yes ............. if the destruction of all German cities resulted in saving the life of only one Allies serviceman/woman, it would have been worth it. They were warned -"Sow a wind and reap a whirlwind.
 
AHILL said:

I dont hear Merkel apologising for flattening the midlands!
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Because they didn't "flatten the Midlands"

Please tell me you're not comparing a series of air raids, resulting in less than 500 deaths, to the deaths of 25,000 in the carpet bombing of a single city.
 
I don't hear the Germans apologising for shooting down my uncles Wellington with the loss of all crew either ,or for firing there v1 and v2 rockets into london not aimed just pointed in a general direction .we will be having a f*****g whip round to help them have a beer festival to remember it next
 
simon ess said:
My instinct and my heart agree with you.

My head, however, tells me that you stop, by any means and as quickly as possible, a regime that has systematically and cold-bloodedly slaughtered at least 6 million, has enslaved millions more and is set on continental domination.

Any means.
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It didn't stop the regime though, did it? It didn't even try to. It was largely irrelevant to the actual military war. It achieved very few military objectives. Indeed, the industrial outskirts of Dresden (the ostensible "target" which was used to justify the attacks) were left largely untouched in favour of carpet bombing the civilian city centre. It was just murder. Pointless, vindictive, murder. The firebombing of an historic city centre, packed with civilians.

If it had targeted the regime command or substantial military installations then maybe...MAYBE...it might be grudgingly justified. But it didn't. It was a disgusting war crime. 25,000 civilians burned alive. Vile.
 
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Just a pity the Atom bomb hadn't been completed earlier, Nuking Germany would probably have stopped the war earlier. I suppose the bombing of London etc was not a war crime in your books then?
 
ghoti said:
It didn't stop the regime though, did it? It didn't even try to. It was largely irrelevant to the actual military war. It achieved very few military objectives. Indeed, the industrial outskirts of Dresden (the ostensible "target" which was used to justify the attacks) were left largely untouched in favour of carpet bombing the civilian city centre. It was just murder. Pointless, vindictive, murder. The firebombing of an historic city centre, packed with civilians.

If it had targeted the regime command or substantial military installations then maybe...MAYBE...it might be grudgingly justified. But it didn't. It was a disgusting war crime. 25,000 civilians burned alive. Vile.
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It was also vile that the camps were running and murdering civillians in far higher numbers. Anything that brought that war to an end earlier was a necessity.
 
fracster said:
It was also vile that the camps were running and murdering civillians in far higher numbers. Anything that brought that war to an end earlier was a necessity.
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Well, firstly the fact that the Germans were involved in the vile murdering of innocents on a massive a scale doesn't excuse us killing more innocents. What is this? "But they were doing it too, Sir!" This argument is like saying that if someone kills children you would be justified in killing THEIR children as punishment. You can't morally avenge the killing of innocents by killing a different set of innocents!

Secondly, it's completely irrelevant anyway as the scale of the holocaust wasn't known when we murdered 25,000 innocent people in Dresden with firebombs.

And, thirdly, it didn't bring the war to an end sooner.

Cold blooded murder. An evil act of cynical terrorism.
 
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frank said:
Just a pity the Atom bomb hadn't been completed earlier, Nuking Germany would probably have stopped the war earlier. I suppose the bombing of London etc was not a war crime in your books then?
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Why wouldn't I think the bombing of London was a war crime?
 
Why should anybody apologise for what happened 60 odd years ago? The whole world was at war, I agree that the bombing of Dresden was bad, as were many other actions by all sides. Aplogising means nothing now, no matter what.

Do you think Putin should apologise for Stalins vile acts?
 
ghoti said:
Secondly, it's completely irrelevant anyway as the scale of the holocaust wasn't known when we murdered 25,000 innocent people in Dresden with firebombs.
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Actually your quite wrong, the first discovery the holocaust was happening was July 1944, Dresden bombing was 1945
 
frank said:
Actually your quite wrong, the first discovery the holocaust was happening was July 1944, Dresden bombing was 1945
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Where was I wrong? Did we know the scale of the holocaust in February 1945? No.
Not that it matters anyway. The fact the Nazi regime were exterminating jews does not excuse the indiscriminate murder of 25,000 innocent German civilians. Not even a little bit. It was pure evil.
 
Russians came across a concentraion camp at majdanik,evidence was found of gas chambers, treblinka aand others were liberated soon after, 1944, not After Dresden which was Feb 1945. Check your history or are you one of these folk that claim the holocaust never happened? btw, 32000 dead, 87000 injured over 2 million home lost during the blitz, I think we had good reason to be p***ed off. Oh don't forget the troops who lost their lives trying to get rid of these nazi bstards.
 
frank said:
btw, 32000 dead, 87000 injured over 2 million home lost during the blitz, I think we had good reason to be p***ed off. Oh don't forget the troops who lost their lives trying to get rid of these nazi bstards.
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And I'm sure Germans could come up with similar numbers for their losses. It's a pointless p***ing contest.
 
frank said:
Actually your quite wrong, the first discovery the holocaust was happening was July 1944, Dresden bombing was 1945
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There are actually aerial pics that were taken earlier than that.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/aerials.html

If you read the detailed history of Bletchley Park you will find that there were many Enigma messages decoded in which Germans units were providing daily reports of the number of people they were executing on a daily basis in Russia (such messages were not made public so as to avoid revealing that the Enigma codes were being broken).

No matter when the atrocities were discovered the prosecution of the war (which included attacking cities) rightly took priority.

BTW, Dresden had 110 factories with 50,000 civilian workers involved in the war effort.

Frank also said:-
"Just a pity the Atom bomb hadn't been completed earlier, Nuking Germany would probably have stopped the war earlier. I suppose the bombing of London etc was not a war crime in your books then?"

I agree and remember that Germany was doing it's best to invent an atom bomb.

Strange how with the passage of time so much get's sanitised. This country was struggling for survival and did not have the luxury of employing selective killing. They were all enemies back then.
 
ghoti said:
The fact the Nazi regime were exterminating jews does not excuse the indiscriminate murder of 25,000 innocent German civilians.
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Not that it makes any difference to your argument but, though the majority of those persecuted were Jews, there were a number of other groups suffering the same treatment.
 
frank said:
Russians came across a concentraion camp at majdanik,evidence was found of gas chambers, treblinka aand others were liberated soon after, 1944, not After Dresden which was Feb 1945. Check your history or are you one of these folk that claim the holocaust never happened? btw, 32000 dead, 87000 injured over 2 million home lost during the blitz, I think we had good reason to be p***ed off. Oh don't forget the troops who lost their lives trying to get rid of these nazi bstards.
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Of course I don't deny the holocaust. What I said was that the scale was not known at the time of Dresden.

And once again, killing innocents is no way to avenge the killing of innocents. But I get it, you think it's okay to burn children and the elderly to death because the regime they lived under did horrible things. Very warped point of view in my opinion, but there you go. Each to their own, etc.

To me it's a bit like if we had a serial child murderer and you are arguing a good way to get back at him would be to murder his innocent children.
 
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gramps said:
Not that it makes any difference to your argument but, though the majority of those persecuted were Jews, there were a number of other groups suffering the same treatment.
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Agreed. Also agree that it makes no difference to my point.
 
Blimey. If half the people on here had been in power in the 40s we would all be speaking German, and if we wanted to view opinions would be in a concentration camp.

We were at war, against some petty awful people. Each day of the war saw many people die. The Germans started bombing our cities in 40. In war you retaliate. You also need to break the enemy's resolve and morale. It is debatable how the Dresden bombing affected the outcome, but s good number of those injured or killed would have been servicemen. How many Jews were dying each day??? You can't always win wars by being nice.

Fwiw, am waiting for the Italian PM to apologise for my great (x20) grandfather being killed by lions in the coliseum.
 
ghoti said:
Well, firstly the fact that the Germans were involved in the vile murdering of innocents on a massive a scale doesn't excuse us killing more innocents. What is this? "But they were doing it too, Sir!" This argument is like saying that if someone kills children you would be justified in killing THEIR children as punishment. You can't morally avenge the killing of innocents by killing a different set of innocents!

Secondly, it's completely irrelevant anyway as the scale of the holocaust wasn't known when we murdered 25,000 innocent people in Dresden with firebombs.

And, thirdly, it didn't bring the war to an end sooner.

Cold blooded murder. An evil act of cynical terrorism.
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The allied new about the camps well before Dresden,so in your eyes all the bomber crews are now war criminals?,I come across this before it was a load of rubbish then,as it is now and you no it :mad:
 
simonblue said:
The allied new about the camps well before Dresden,so in your eyes all the bomber crews are now war criminals?,I come across this before it was a load of rubbish then,as it is now and you no it :mad:
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The commanders who gave orders for Dresden were war criminals, yes. They were evil scum and should have hung with the nazis. And as I've said: we may have known about the camps but we didn't know the scale of the holocaust at that stage. In any case, that's irrelevant. That the German regime was utterly evil and murderous does not excuse the senseless, indiscriminate slaughter of 25,000 innocent civilians. As I've said, you don't avenge the killing of innocents by killing more innocents.
 
You keep forgetting to say, "in my opinion."

Perfectly valid opinion to have, of course. I happen to hold a different opinion.
 
simon ess said:
You keep forgetting to say, "in my opinion."

Perfectly valid opinion to have, of course. I happen to hold a different opinion.
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I'm crediting people with the intelligence to deduce that it's my opinion for themselves. What else would it be, but my opinion? I'm struggling to understand why I'd need to point that out.
 
simon ess said:
Because you are stating it as fact.
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Am I? It's obviously a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. I honestly didn't anticipate that I'd need to continuously point it out as I, perhaps mistakenly, credited people here with the nous to work that out for themselves.
Do we need to pepper everything we say in debate with "in my opinion" in case the hard-of-thinking get confused?
 
ghoti said:
The commanders who gave orders for Dresden were war criminals, yes. They were evil scum and should have hung with the nazis. And as I've said: we may have known about the camps but we didn't know the scale of the holocaust at that stage. In any case, that's irrelevant. That the German regime was utterly evil and murderous does not excuse the senseless, indiscriminate slaughter of 25,000 innocent civilians. As I've said, you don't avenge the killing of innocents by killing more innocents.
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Yes but under the laws of wars crimes,you cannot say you were just following orders ?,so those young men who gave their lives for your piece of mind,would in your view be war criminals,you can't have it both ways.
 
simonblue said:
Yes but under the laws of wars crimes,you cannot say you were just following orders ?,so those young men who gave their lives for your piece of mind,would in your view be war criminals,you can't have it both ways.
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If the people in the planes that bombed Dresden knew what they were engaging in a terrorist, not a military, attack (even Churchill admitted after the war that Dresden had been terrorism) then, yes, they are war criminals or the moral equivalent.
There were many hundreds of thousands of brave British soldiers in WWII who fought military battles. My respect is with them. I've no respect for young men who knowingly attacked innocent civilians. German or British. And if they "gave their lives" in the act: good.
 
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