Driving Offence Advice

DavidMartin

DavidMartin

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David Martin
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Hi don't know if anyone on here would know but the DVLA have revoked my sons driving license under the New Drivers rule, the thing is the offence happened 2 years ago.

Not going to go into detail but he got 6 points and £200 fixed penalty the day before his 2 years driving probation would have been up. The offence happened on 5/3/11.
He sent his license off and had the points added and paid the fine. He was told when he received his license back that the DVLA would be in contact within 21 days. He heard nothing and thought he had scraped in because of it happening the day before his 2 years was up.
He received a letter from them yesterday saying that they have now revoked his license. My question is, is there a maximum time in which they can do this. He has settled down and got a good job and if he loses his license he loses his job.

And yes I know he shouldn't s have got the points and penalty but that's in the past, he paid the fine and took the points but it seems a bit harsh to leave it 102 weeks before they revoke his license.
 
I think you'd be far better off speaking to a solicitor, not asking for advice on here or anywhere else.
DVLA isn't the most efficient organisation and it could well be they are in the wrong, but irrespective of what you gleam from forums, the end result is you will need to have a solicitor to sort this one out. Sorry, it will cost you, although if your sons insurance has legal protection that will reduce that cost.
 
Thanks for the replies, I know what you're saying Bernie and yes he is probably going to have to go down that route. Didn't know if there was anything written that would confirm wether they are in the wrong or not.
 
I doubt it David, it sounds like the DVLA cocking up, but in order to get them to withdraw the suspension if thats what it is, it's going to take a solicitor.

srichards
He's not disputing that. The issue here is that for a period of time they have allowed him to drive, 2 years in fact. If they were going to suspend the lience that should have happened 2 years ago. It would now have long been returned to him. So is the suspension now legal? I doubt it, but the only way it can be challenged is by a solicitor, and if needs be by Judicial review.
 
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Bernie174 said:
I doubt it David, it sounds like the DVLA cocking up, but in order to get them to withdraw the suspension if thats what it is, it's going to take a solicitor.

srichards
He's not disputing that. The issue here is that for a period of time they have allowed him to drive, 2 years in fact. If they were going to suspend the lience that should have happened 2 years ago. It would now have long been returned to him. So is the suspension now legal? I doubt it, but the only way it can be challenged is by a solicitor, and if needs be by Judicial review.
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Just to clarify though, it isn't a suspension. In terms of the Road Traffic New Drivers Act the licence is automatically revoked on gaining 6 points.

The OP's son has quite possibly been driving without a licence since the 6 points were added.
 
SOrry David, for sounding thick....

Offence was 2 yrs back, and they took 2 yrs to issue 6 points and £200? Surely there is a time period in order to prosecute? Was it a court jobbie or totting up to 6 points...?

if it happened 05/03/11 then surely 2 yrs - 1 day is 04/03/13... i.e. week and a bits time...
 
It's an automatic revocation on accepting or being awarded 6 points, and a google shows that the DVLA has no obligation of notification.

Can the DVLA revoke my licence without prior warning or a Court attendance?

Yes. The process is automatic and neither the Police, the DVLA or the Court have any discretion. If you accept a Fixed Penalty Notice which results in 6 points being reached within your first 2 years of driving, your licence will be revoked without any prior warning or a Court appearance.

Do the DVLA, the Police or the Courts have to warn me that my licence could be revoked?

There is no obligation on the part of the authorities to warn you of the process or the fact that you face revocation. It is assumed that you will be familiar with the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995.

I have received 6 points but I've not been told that my licence has been revoked. Can I continue driving?

In the normal course of events the DVLA would write to you giving you 5 days notice of revocation. If you have not received such a letter, it is quite feasible that it has simply got lost in the post and revocation has been imposed without your knowledge. You should check with the DVLA to establish the status of your licence. If it has been revoked and you continue to drive, you not only commit the offence of driving otherwise than in accordance with your licence, but this would also invalidate your insurance which would lead to a further prosecution.
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http://www.drivingban.co.uk/driving...e_without_prior_warning_or_a_Court_attendance
 
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I can get they can do it without warning, but why would they do it NOW and not at the time? it makes no sense
 
Headless Lois said:
I can get they can do it without warning, but why would they do it NOW and not at the time? it makes no sense
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As I understand, the revocation happens automatically on getting 6 points, the OPs son has only found out/been informed about it now (2 years later).

It doesn't invalidate the revocation, he didn't have a licence from the time he accepted the 6 points.
 
Lynton said:
SOrry David, for sounding thick....

Offence was 2 yrs back, and they took 2 yrs to issue 6 points and £200? Surely there is a time period in order to prosecute? Was it a court jobbie or totting up to 6 points...?

if it happened 05/03/11 then surely 2 yrs - 1 day is 04/03/13... i.e. week and a bits time...
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I have to admit to also being a bit confused here

David when exactly did your son get the 6 points on his license?
 
pepi1967 said:
But is there a time limit in which time the ban has to be enforced?
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It's not a ban, his licence is revoked, he has no licence and now has to apply for a provisional and then resit his theory and then practical test as if he never had a licence.
 
Dave1 said:
As I understand, the revocation happens automatically on getting 6 points, the OPs son has only found out/been informed about it now (2 years later).

It doesn't invalidate the revocation, he didn't have a licence from the time he accepted the 6 points.
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I don't think its clear from the op that the licence was revoked at the time, and the letter received is confirmation of this, or whether they have literally just revoked it.
 
Keith W said:
I have to admit to also being a bit confused here

David when exactly did your son get the 6 points on his license?
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DavidMartin said:
Not going to go into detail but he got 6 points and £200 fixed penalty the day before his 2 years driving probation would have been up. The offence happened on 5/3/11.
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Date of offence is what counts for points calculation.

Headless Lois said:
I don't think its clear from the op that the licence was revoked at the time, and the letter received is confirmation of this, or whether they have literally just revoked it.
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The licence is automatically revoked, there is no appeal process or system involved in it, the law is as simple as getting 6 points in the first 2 years causes an automatic revocation.
 
Dave1 said:
Date of offence is what counts for points calculation.
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How so?

If they contested the offence, went to court, got found guilty and then got 6 points it would only be from the date those 6 points were given as punishment that the revocation would have been valid

This is why I asked the question when did the son get given the 6 points
 
Keith W said:
How so?

If they contested the offence, went to court, got found guilty and then got 6 points it would only be from the date those 6 points were given as punishment that the revocation would have been valid

This is why I asked the question when did the son get given the 6 points
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Apologies, you are correct that some offences apply from the date of a court conviction, it's date of offence for FPN offences and certain other offences at court (we don't know the offence, so it could be date of offence or date of conviction).

£200 and 6 points is the usual sentence for no insurance, as an example, even if convicted at court the points are applied from date of offence, not conviction.

Insurance offences
Code IN10 must stay on a driving licence for 4 years from the date of the offence.

Code Offence Penalty points
IN10 Using a vehicle uninsured against third party risks 6-8 points
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https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endorsements/endorsement-codes-and-penalty-points

Rereading the OP, the conviction was also within the first 2 years.

DavidMartin said:
Not going to go into detail but he got 6 points and £200 fixed penalty the day before his 2 years driving probation would have been up.
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Has the son's address changed during the intervening time? The dvla systems will flag things like this up on an address change so if that has happened recently it may explain why this letter has appeared now.
 
Seek legal advice it is as simple as that, even with the guidelines online there are loopholes that are frequently exploited.
Seen some REALLY **** drivers (literally write vehicles off) get out of points and suspension again and again. Several using "age" as their excuse (I kid thee not).

But like many I would say that technically he has been driving without a license, question would then be has the DVLA been irresponsible not notifying your son sooner?
 
Surely DVLA should not have returned his licence in the first place but should have revoked it then?


Heather
 
Just to clarify the case didn't go to court it was an on the spot fixed penalty. The license was sent to the local endorsement office and returned. They then notified the DVLA of the offence.
To be honest he's already accepted he will have to resit his test etc, its his job he's concerned about.
I have told him it would be quicker to do that rather than have a dragged out argument with the DVLA
 
For no insurance it runs from the date of the offence which is the date he was caught.

The DVLA will revoke his licence on the 1 year and 364th day because thats the law.

No insurance is 6 points and a £200 fine and unfortunatly for new drivers its an instant ban! Which will give him a TT99 on his licence when he gets it back after his ban is up.

If you want anymore help PM me.
 
Pompeyfc81 said:
for new drivers its an instant ban! Which will give him a TT99 on his licence when he gets it back after his ban is up.

If you want anymore help PM me.
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its not a ban ,its been revoked ,,,he wont get it back until he takes the test again ( and passes )
 
donutagain said:
its not a ban ,its been revoked ,,,he wont get it back until he takes the test again ( and passes )
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Same thing just wrong wording on my part ;-) apologies
 
awc-legal.co.uk

Apparently they specialise in motoring offences.

Just heard their advert on the radio, so I have no idea how good they are!
 
I honestly can't see what spending money on further legal advice will do, the law is absolutely clear and has no appeal grounds whatsoever.

If a new driver gets 6 points in the first 2 years their licence is automatically revoked. Not even a court can overturn or stop it happening (other than by imposing a sentence other than 6 points).

If the OP's son had used more forethought it might have been worth spending on a solicitor before accepting the points and going to court in the (very small) hope of getting a short ban instead of points (even though magistrates guidelines are against a short ban for those in their first 2 years).

The OP's son might have had a 1% chance of keeping his licence that way, as soon as the 6 points were awarded its game over.
 
Dave1 said:
I honestly can't see what spending money on further legal advice will do, the law is absolutely clear and has no appeal grounds whatsoever.

If a new driver gets 6 points in the first 2 years their licence is automatically revoked. Not even a court can overturn or stop it happening (other than by imposing a sentence other than 6 points).

If the OP's son had used more forethought it might have been worth spending on a solicitor before accepting the points and going to court in the (very small) hope of getting a short ban instead of points (even though magistrates guidelines are against a short ban for those in their first 2 years).

The OP's son might have had a 1% chance of keeping his licence that way, as soon as the 6 points were awarded its game over.
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See post 24. It didn't go to court.
 
viv1969 said:
See post 24. It didn't go to court.
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Re-read my post.

I am saying it might have been worth going to court with a solicitor in the hope of getting the magistrate to sentence differently instead of accepting the FPN and 6 points.
 
Dave1 said:
Re-read my post.

I am saying it might have been worth going to court with a solicitor in the hope of getting the magistrate to sentence differently instead of accepting the FPN and 6 points.
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That's a moot point now really, and depending on the offence may not have been an option anyway. It still does explain why they have let the lad drive for the last 2 years and only just informed him this week that is licence is being revoked. Surely that should have happened 2 years ago when the 6 points were added?
 
Mandoo said:
That's a moot point now really, and depending on the offence may not have been an option anyway. It still does explain why they have let the lad drive for the last 2 years and only just informed him this week that is licence is being revoked. Surely that should have happened 2 years ago when the 6 points were added?
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The problem is the onus is on the licence holder, not the DVLA. It is made plain that getting 6 points causes revocation. If a new driver gets 6 points they are supposed to be aware of this.

There is nothing in the law that obligates the DVLA to notify the driver, even though they do normally send out a letters there isn't a legal requirement to do so.

OP's son is lucky, if he had been pulled, or worse had an accident in the time since the 6 points were accepted, he could have been facing charges of driving without a licence and no valid insurance.

Edit

From my earlier post, some Q&As about the Act

Do the DVLA, the Police or the Courts have to warn me that my licence could be revoked?

There is no obligation on the part of the authorities to warn you of the process or the fact that you face revocation. It is assumed that you will be familiar with the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995.

I have received 6 points but I've not been told that my licence has been revoked. Can I continue driving?

In the normal course of events the DVLA would write to you giving you 5 days notice of revocation. If you have not received such a letter, it is quite feasible that it has simply got lost in the post and revocation has been imposed without your knowledge.

You should check with the DVLA to establish the status of your licence. If it has been revoked and you continue to drive, you not only commit the offence of driving otherwise than in accordance with your licence, but this would also invalidate your insurance which would lead to a further prosecution.
Click to expand...

To add, the "DVLA didn't inform" excuse doesn't really stand up, the notification is done on the day of passing your test.

This is the back of a current Test pass certificate.

8498040604_3a384df3d7_b.jpg
 
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Dave1 said:
OP's son is lucky, if he had been pulled, or worse had an accident in the time since the 6 points were accepted, he could have been facing charges of driving without a licence and no valid insurance.
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He has been stopped by the police over the last 2 years with no problems with his license
 
You should check with the DVLA to establish the status of your licence. If it has been revoked and you continue to drive, you not only commit the offence of driving otherwise than in accordance with your licence, but this would also invalidate your insurance which would lead to a further prosecution.

So does that mean he's been driving illegaly for two years? Or is the dvla saying its only just realised he slipped through the net and have now revoked the licence?
 
DavidMartin said:
He has been stopped by the police over the last 2 years with no problems with his license
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So that just answered my question if it have already been revoked as the dvla said it would have been on their system.
 
All Plod will have been interested in is seeing the bit of paper. They could (and maybe should) have run the details through the PNC which should have shown the license as revoked.

The OP's son's best course of action is to come clean with his employer and get himself through the test system again to get a new license. With a bit of luck (and a reasonable employer), he could be found a desk to drive or be allowed some extra (probably unpaid) leave while he gets the situation sorted.
 
All Plod will have been interested in is seeing the bit of paper.
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Not true. The usual action on stopping any driver is a name check. That would have brought this up, had DVLA updated their records. If they haven't, and that was my point at the start, it appears they have not, then of course it will not be on the PNC Name file.

Which takes us back to the original point, there is no point in debating this, what needs to happen is a trip to see a solicitor. Sort it, don't talk about it.
 
Whenever I've had a "producer", I've always taken the relevant documents to the station and they've recived a cursory glance and been handed back to me with no reference made to the PNC or similar system. Even the ANPR system just references records of the vehicle (of course - how is it going to know who the driver is?)

The DVLA as an organisation (oxymoron alert!) leaves a lot to be desired...
 
I think the only avenue you have to go down is disputing the length of time it's taken for them to revoke his licence.

You can argue that he could loose his job because of this revocation when if two years ago he could've taken his test again and say... within two months (ish?) got his licence back he could have still gotten the job he's currently in.

If he was employed with all points placed on his licence, fine paid and declared on insurance and he still got his current job then there's nothing to say if his licence was revoked two years ago, he wouldn't have had the same opportunity.
 
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