Fining airports for not keeping them open in snow?

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Just a thought that I had when it was mentioned that airports could be fined if they do not keep the air traffic running during bad weather - Does that mean that the Highways agency could be fined if the roads aren't gritted during bad weather? Or like some poor people who were stuck on motorways for hours on end because they were closed due to the weather?
 
Fine the Highways Agency? Who pays the fine - the public. We payroll them.
 
The money for the fine would only come from higher fares. Some people seem to expect to go through life wrapped in cotton wool with someone to blame for every problem they meet. The weather has been exceptional, sometimes ****** happens.
 
Big Andy said:
The money for the fine would only come from higher fares. Some people seem to expect to go through life wrapped in cotton wool with someone to blame for every problem they meet. The weather has been exceptional, sometimes ****** happens.
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Fine any company and they will eventually recover their loss from their customers. The wrong people get punished.
 
As someone who works in the travel industry, and unfortunately got the brunt of hundreds of disgruntled customers this year and last, then yes I think fines should be introduced. The BAA was a complete shambles this year, totally unprepared and the communication to passengers was horrific. I think I would be a bit more understanding if the exact same thing didnt happen last year but it did and they were no more prepared than this year.

Sorry but something has to be done to prevent this from happening in 2011 and I think threatening them to take away what they hold dear might work.
 
Vic said:
As someone who works in the travel industry, and unfortunately got the brunt of hundreds of disgruntled customers this year and last, then yes I think fines should be introduced. The BAA was a complete shambles this year, totally unprepared and the communication to passengers was horrific. I think I would be a bit more understanding if the exact same thing didnt happen last year but it did and they were no more prepared than this year.

Sorry but something has to be done to prevent this from happening in 2011 and I think threatening them to take away what they hold dear might work.
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Lots of the interviews from BBC were just as shambolic, with the news people trying to trip them ( BAA ) up over every point.

OPEN YOU GODDAM EYES, it snowed, alot and like BAA said, they cancel football matches for snow, they close motorways for snow.

I live in Cumbria and it was very clear from the outset that you SHOULD NOT TRAVEL to Heathrow but no, people were hellbent on getting there and when they do - you got it they moan and whinge !
 
dseered said:
Lots of the interviews from BBC were just as shambolic, with the news people trying to trip them ( BAA ) up over every point.

OPEN YOU GODDAM EYES, it snowed, alot and like BAA said, they cancel football matches for snow, they close motorways for snow.

I live in Cumbria and it was very clear from the outset that you SHOULD NOT TRAVEL to Heathrow but no, people were hellbent on getting there and when they do - you got it they moan and whinge !
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It's not just about the cancelling the flights, its the whole operation! Gatwick and Heathrow are connecting airports which means passengers from all over the world were stranded and there were no protocols to help them. Hotels were full, they chucked people out the airport, there was no one at the airport to help them and then the BAA told them all to phone their tour operators. What were we supposed to tell them? Sorry but countries from all over the world have the same problems with snow but they MANAGE it. BAA need a system for when this sort of chaos happens and they have had over a year to do it but didnt bother!
 
Is this weather so very exceptional in UK now? There are experts saying this will be the norm - More extremes - Perhaps they're the same people who say there is Global warming though :D:D

I do think that the UK should be more prepared - Pundits said that the UK was loosing about £1 billion perday due to the weather. Well, they lost more than the investment it would take to keep the whole transport system running over that period of how many days? I do wonder how countries such as Norway / Finland cope with the weather they have - They don't grind to a halt, schools close etc. The news programmes I was watching made the UK look pathetic.
 
i cant remember where i heard/read it but there was an interview with some official from scandenavia, they were basically saying that if we spent the millions on ploughs etc theyd be be a waste of money as while it has happened a few times recently this is still rare weather for the UK and the kit would probably rot away before it was next needed.

as for fining airports, thats a little unfair. personally id rather not fly than risk skidding off an icey runway.
 
also as a country we bitch and moan no matter what anyway. its too hot, its too cold, i cant get to work, i hate being at work, we want snowploughs, we dont want to pay for snowploughs.. etc.

essentially officials/companies etc are damned if they do and damned if they dont.
 
Vic said:
It's not just about the cancelling the flights, its the whole operation! Gatwick and Heathrow are connecting airports which means passengers from all over the world were stranded and there were no protocols to help them. Hotels were full, they chucked people out the airport, there was no one at the airport to help them and then the BAA told them all to phone their tour operators. What were we supposed to tell them? Sorry but countries from all over the world have the same problems with snow but they MANAGE it. BAA need a system for when this sort of chaos happens and they have had over a year to do it but didnt bother!
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So what, have a 10,000 room hotel for the odd day like this?

We rarely get this level of snow, its no good comparing us to Sweden or similar where they have this level for months every year.

It was one of those things, yes, BAA could maybe have handled it better, but had a plane crashed then they would have been slated.
 
Another half-baked idea from the government <sic>. Not quite as stupid as fine the NHS if they put people in opposite sex wards - I wonder who that loss of funding would affect?

If they were serious, they'd cut the guy at the top's salary - who gets paid a large salary to manage - and if someone lower down that he's managing cocks up - what a better way to grab his attention than by reducing his salary!
 
If you fine the aiports (or association which runs them) then you're going to make the situation worse in the long run. More fines = less investment = higher fares = less travellers = less investment = more fines and so on.

All that will happen is airlines and airports will simply close during the winter months and charge the airlines more for using their services when they are open.

There was obviously something different that happened this year. We had more snow last year and Heathrow were very proud and quick to say that they didn't close - so why did they have to shut this year with the actual weather being not as bad?
 
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tirc83 said:
Another half-baked idea from the government <sic>. Not quite as stupid as fine the NHS if they put people in opposite sex wards - I wonder who that loss of funding would affect?

If they were serious, they'd cut the guy at the top's salary - who gets paid a large salary to manage - and if someone lower down that he's managing cocks up - what a better way to grab his attention than by reducing his salary!
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Yes, or if neglect has posed a serious safety/injury/loss of life issue then prison for a company director.
 
More insanity, people/companys/goverment are just greedy, we get hit with a heat wave = global warming!

We get hit by a snow storm = fine the ****ers that have tried to clear roads/runways

Why can people just not let things be.
 
dseered said:
OPEN YOU GODDAM EYES, it snowed, alot and like BAA said, they cancel football matches for snow, they close motorways for snow.
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They do & I think it would of been fair to shut for the snow. It was the aftermath was a joke though. BAA refused army help to clear the runways and taxi ways/stands. Treated people shambolically and I hate to say this but there wasn't that much snow at Heathrow certainly not enough to keep it shut when the surrounding area was clear 4 days after the last snow
 
Vic said:
As someone who works in the travel industry, and unfortunately got the brunt of hundreds of disgruntled customers this year and last, then yes I think fines should be introduced. The BAA was a complete shambles this year, totally unprepared and the communication to passengers was horrific. I think I would be a bit more understanding if the exact same thing didnt happen last year but it did and they were no more prepared than this year.

Sorry but something has to be done to prevent this from happening in 2011 and I think threatening them to take away what they hold dear might work.
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But then you'll get the fall out from customers whinging about an increase in travel costs (caused by airports spending millions on unused machinery for dealijg with snowy weather that sods law predicts would not happen again)

I think as mentioned earlier we need to realise that as humans we cant control everything and sometimes we have to just roll with it!
 
whitewash said:
But then you'll get the fall out from customers whinging about an increase in travel costs (caused by airports spending millions on unused machinery for dealijg with snowy weather that sods law predicts would not happen again)

I think as mentioned earlier we need to realise that as humans we cant control everything and sometimes we have to just roll with it!
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we do and I don't think anyone suggests we need to be as snow ready as say Moscow. I don't think shutting for snow is the issue, just the fiasco afterwards something easily avoided
 
Instead of buying the equipment needed for this type of weather, that might not be needed for another 12 months, just rent the damn stuff for 2-3 months. Supports the "local" economy, if they get the equipemtn local that is, and doesnt mean BAA have to fork out for maintanence (sp) on equipment that they might not use for another 9ish months.
Also, plenty of people in need of work, so why not employ people on the dole to help out if such extremes happen in the following years? Only has to be temp contracts, but surely cheaper than being unfairly fined year after year?
 
I landed at Heathrow last Saturday morning about 40 minutes before they closed all runways, and let me tell you from first hand experience, they were doing just about EVERYTHING you could think of to deal with the snow falling trying to keep the airport operational.

Given that we thought we were at about 800 feet in the cloud cover when we landed, you'll have some idea as to what visibility was like at the peak of the snowfall.

There were ploughs out clearing the snow and it was forming again less than 30 seconds after they had been through and even the tugs moving the planes were unable to get around (and they are hardly front wheel drive Fiestas!). In the time it took us to taxi down the runway after landing and turn off, there was at least an inch of snow on the wing.

Even if there is only a 0.01% chance that a landing aircraft could lose traction on the runway and end up somewhere it shouldn't, then closing the airport is absolutely the right thing to do.

It's not a 'British' thing either. Off the top of my head, France, Germany, Switzerland, and the US have all faced disruption from excessive and/or sudden snowfall in recent weeks.

Sometimes you have to accept that you can not beat Mother Nature.
 
BAA simply don't have the staff or the facilities to deal with the conditions that occurred in the manner that people would like. It was pretty exceptional circumstances and frankly what else could they do?

All this talk of salary reductions, sackings etc - trying to find someone to blame? Earlier in the year we had an exceptional weather event - and now we've had another. So it looks like this is becoming more normal again - maybe they should now start looking at ways to improve things. But imagine the uproar if they had spent £25m on bad weather stuff earlier in the year and it wasn't then needed again?

They can't win. But there always has to be someone to blame doesn't there?

dseered said:
Lots of the interviews from BBC were just as shambolic, with the news people trying to trip them ( BAA ) up over every point.
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I saw one of those interviews as the snow has started falling.

Considering the BBC are supposed to be an impartial news service their interviews were a disgrace. I only watched it so I could get the presenters name for a complaint.
 
RichardtheSane said:
BAA simply don't have the staff or the facilities to deal with the conditions that occurred in the manner that people would like. It was pretty exceptional circumstances and frankly what else could they do?
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They could do whatever the owners of Gatwick or Manchester did, as they among many other in the UK did not suffer the week of disruption the BAA airports did, and on that first Friday night Manchester got double the snow that Heathrow did.
 
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Simmotino said:
I landed at Heathrow last Saturday morning about 40 minutes before they closed all runways, and let me tell you from first hand experience, they were doing just about EVERYTHING you could think of to deal with the snow falling trying to keep the airport operational.

Given that we thought we were at about 800 feet in the cloud cover when we landed, you'll have some idea as to what visibility was like at the peak of the snowfall.

There were ploughs out clearing the snow and it was forming again less than 30 seconds after they had been through and even the tugs moving the planes were unable to get around (and they are hardly front wheel drive Fiestas!). In the time it took us to taxi down the runway after landing and turn off, there was at least an inch of snow on the wing.

Even if there is only a 0.01% chance that a landing aircraft could lose traction on the runway and end up somewhere it shouldn't, then closing the airport is absolutely the right thing to do.

It's not a 'British' thing either. Off the top of my head, France, Germany, Switzerland, and the US have all faced disruption from excessive and/or sudden snowfall in recent weeks.

Sometimes you have to accept that you can not beat Mother Nature.
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no issues with any of that and I agree totally, but its not that thats the problems - its the four days after that re and the shambols that went with it. You can't say that was done to the best of anybodies ability?
 
cambsno said:
So what, have a 10,000 room hotel for the odd day like this?

We rarely get this level of snow, its no good comparing us to Sweden or similar where they have this level for months every year.

It was one of those things, yes, BAA could maybe have handled it better, but had a plane crashed then they would have been slated.
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The other thing to consider is Helsinki has 3 runways. At any given time 2 are open and the third is being cleared, this rotates constantly so when 1 is totally clear it is opened and whichever 'other' runway is worst gets closed to be cleared. Heathrow only has 2 runways which have to be open at all times for the sheer volume of traffic - 2 to 2.5 times what Helsinki has.

There was a great interview on the radio with a representative from Helsinki who pointed out that it is unfair to compare the two. She also went on to say that flying a plane, much like driving, you generally go slower and leave much bigger gaps. When Heathrow has a plane taking off/landing every 45 seconds(ish) it gets very hard to increase the gaps between planes without having massive knock on effects
 
Gareth S said:
Instead of buying the equipment needed for this type of weather, that might not be needed for another 12 months, just rent the damn stuff for 2-3 months. Supports the "local" economy, if they get the equipemtn local that is, and doesnt mean BAA have to fork out for maintanence (sp) on equipment that they might not use for another 9ish months.
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Who would it be rented off? I suspect if the UK is covered in snow then Scandanavian countires would be covered too and unlikely to spare any machinery.

Even if there were some equipment 'local' whoever owned it (presumably councils?) would probably require it
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
Who would it be rented off? I suspect if the UK is covered in snow then Scandanavian countires would be covered too and unlikely to spare any machinery.

Even if there were some equipment 'local' whoever owned it (presumably councils?) would probably require it
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They could rent it off who ever Tesco does, as the car park at the store near me has been kept total free from snow and ice.
 
Vic said:
... Sorry but countries from all over the world have the same problems with snow but they MANAGE it. BAA need a system for when this sort of chaos happens and they have had over a year to do it but didnt bother!
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Sorry but you're wrong.

Frankfurt-Main was shut for longer than Heathrow, as were most of the smaller domestic airports and we're used to getting deep snow in Germany (Two winters ago it dropped to -27C with nearly 2m of snow in eastern Germany).
All European flights were cancelled with only international flights to the US and the Far East still operating until they stopped as well...
Passengers that could get flights here spent up to 14 hours queuing until everything stopped.

The difference here is that when the news reports that police are advising people not to travel - they don't travel.
Unlike in the UK where everyone assumes it somehow doesn't apply to them...:wacky:
 
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boyfalldown said:
no issues with any of that and I agree totally, but its not that thats the problems - its the four days after that re and the shambols that went with it. You can't say that was done to the best of anybodies ability?
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This is exactly it. I have a little problems with BAA cancelling the flights but its how they handle it. They don't have enough procedures or staff to deal with the confusion.

Arkady2 said:
Sorry but you're wrong.

Frankfurt-Main was shut for longer than Heathrow, as were most of the smaller domestic airports and we're used to getting deep snow in Germany (Two winters ago it dropped to -27C with nearly 2m of snow in eastern Germany).
All European flights were cancelled with only international flights to the US and the Far East still operating until they stopped as well...
Passengers that could get flights here spent up to 14 hours queuing until everything stopped.

The difference here is that when the news reports that police are advising people not to travel - they don't travel.
Unlike in the UK where everyone assumes it somehow doesn't apply to them...:wacky:
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Sorry but other countries do manage it, last year the BAA sent us all an grovelling apology naming countries they were looking to take example of. As far as I can see nothing came from it. :shrug:

Also BAA was still advising passengers to travel as normal after the big snow began to fall. Their motto was if your flight isn't delayed on our website then it's basically going. People unfortunately still see their money going down the drain if they don't travel.

Like any other industry these days the travel one is suffering and we have taken our share off redundancies but making customers feel that they can't rely on their airports at a certain time of year is only going to damage it more.

Let's hope it's better in 2011.:cautious:
 
whiteflyer said:
They could rent it off who ever Tesco does, as the car park at the store near me has been kept total free from snow and ice.
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My nearest Tesco took a different approach. They just shut the car park and let customers go elsewhere.
 
Heathrow is [one of] the busiest airports in the world. They make a charge for every passenger and every flight that arrives or leaves. I fail to understand why they should not invest in their business and ensure that the service they sell functions as it would.

They also make quite a nice living from the shops that a captive audience have access to whilst the flights are delayed....
 
BAA isn't British - it's owned by a Spanish construction company (Ferrovial). Might have something to do with the amount of money they're allowed to spend on snow-clearing gear.
 
I can sort of understand the problems with the airports, end of the day you're talking about some serious safety issues. One patch of ice big enough and that 767 that just landed does a handbrake turn into T2 departure lounge!

What does annoy me is once again councils were woefully ill-prepared for the snow. Purbeck Coucil irritate me on a regular basis anyway, but their handling of some of the roads around here has been criminal.

Don't fine, as has been mentioned we'd only end up paying in the long run anyway. Start taking bonuses, and if appropriate, start sacking people.
 
boyfalldown said:
no issues with any of that and I agree totally, but its not that thats the problems - its the four days after that re and the shambols that went with it. You can't say that was done to the best of anybodies ability?
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I won't disagree that they could have handled the aftermath better than they did but the problem didn't disappear with the snowfall unfortunately.

Many of the issues were down to planes and crew now being in the wrong locations following rerouting on the Saturday so the logistics of that had to be overcome before things could return to normal (or as close as was possible).

The continuing cold weather meant many airlines couldn't keep their planes airworthy with icing issues (another discussion altogether!) and therefore couldn't get them where they were needed as quickly as they should have.

The runways were cleared as soon as they could, but then re-iced on a number of occasions compounding the problems with moving stock.

I know it sounds like a PR release but, as someone who spends FAR too much time going through airports around the world, I think the (airside at least) situation was handled as well as could be expected given the ridiculous weather.

Passenger side, well that's a whole different kettle of fish and could certainly have been better handled but, as Rob mentioned, people still blindly piling in to the airports when clearly told they wouldn't be flying, only served to make that worse, I'm sure.
 
So, other countries deal with it better eh?

Did you see what happened in Moscow the other day? Now Russians know a little about snow and ice... and their airport still had to close, with the same chaos as Heathrow.

The difference? The airport staff had to flee because the upset passengers tried to beat them to death :D

In Russia snow kicks butt 8)
 
Simmotino said:
Passenger side, well that's a whole different kettle of fish and could certainly have been better handled but, as Rob mentioned, people still blindly piling in to the airports when clearly told they wouldn't be flying, only served to make that worse, I'm sure.
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I won't disagree with any of the rest, but the airlines didn't help. I flew from Gatwick the day after the first closure. I was told by the airline I had to travel to the airport if it was open regardless of flight status. Go figure
 
boyfalldown said:
I won't disagree with any of the rest, but the airlines didn't help. I flew from Gatwick the day after the first closure. I was told by the airline I had to travel to the airport if it was open regardless of flight status. Go figure
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Well, quite!

I was more referencing the airports/BAA themselves, who were desperately trying to keep people away. Given what you say, that was obviously going to be a thankless task!
 
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