German Airplane Crashes In French Alps

ST4 said:
Manslaughter requires a lack of intent to kill.

See CPS guidlines on Pre meditation.
Ï
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_-_mandatory_life_sentences_in_murder_cases/
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Every one of the examples you cited would be pursued as a manslaughter case as they lack intent to kill even though the result was death.

Now, if I'd bought the bottle with me, and instead of throwing it at you I beat you repeatedly around the head...keeping going until you died...that would be murder :) ;)
 
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Not sure how this will pan out though, from the report I've just read it seems he did deliberately put the plane into descent causing it to crash :(
I would imagine that would constitute murder rather then manslaughter, not that he will ever be convicted.
Who will ever know what was going through his mind to do it, so tragic for all concerned
 
ST4 said:
Planning to kill someone like in this is premeditated... agreed?

Non premedidated murder can be a crime of passion, ie not pre planned but committed under loss of temper, in anger etc. For instance, someone might see a yob coining their car and find a brick and crack said yob over the skull, said yob dies. The murder wasn't planned, but done "in the heat of the moment".

Or you and I meet, we talk, you throw a bottle at me, my head cracks and I die. You are sent down for Murder. You didn't plan to kill me, it just happened as I once again set you off. A premedidated murder would be you waiting outside my drive, to catch me walking to work and cracking me over the head with the bottle...

I suspect you knew all this already and just wanted me to take the bait...I did...

This appears to be a little different and taken at an opportune moment.
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Totally wrong, that's why in this country we have separate charges of Manslaughter and murder, and why in some other countries they have different definitions of murder.
And also why there is an offence of attempted murder, but not of attempted manslaughter.

But all this is just uninformed speculation, the investigation into this tragedy has only just started.
 
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BRASH said:
FFS. No it's not. It's the English definition of Murder.
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Definitons and what makes it to a charge that MIGHT stick are very different things.
 
viv1969 said:
Definitons and what makes it to a charge that MIGHT stick are very different things.
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Who said anything about making it stick?? We were or you were on about what is Murder and what is not. Your comment about it having to be premeditated was pish and the definition proves that. Simple. A bit like you - evidentlyo_O

Hush now!!
 
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BRASH said:
Who said anything about making it stick?? We were or you were on about what is Murder and what is not. Your comment about it having to be premeditated was pish and the definition proves that. Simple. A bit like you - evidentlyo_O

Hush now!!
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Ok sweetie.
Get back to me when you know what you're talking about ok?
I shan't be holding my breath :)
 
viv1969 said:
Ok sweetie.
Get back to me when you know what you're talking about ok?
I shan't be holding my breath :)
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I was right, you were wrong. Plain for all to see. End of. Goodnight!!!
 
Oh look, another thread descends into childish name calling. Seems to be par for the course at the moment.
Something about the time of year? Have they started putting lead back in petrol?
 
Llamaman said:
Oh look, another thread descends into childish name calling. Seems to be par for the course at the moment.
Something about the time of year? Have they started putting lead back in petrol?
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Ha ha. It's a bit of banter me an Ruth. Take a pill:rolleyes:
 
Llamaman said:
Oh look, another thread descends into childish name calling. Seems to be par for the course at the moment.
Something about the time of year? Have they started putting lead back in petrol?
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Calm down.
In reality Brash and I are both right.
In the printed word of the law his link is right.
In Court and CPS.....practice,, I'm right.
Win win.
Lose lose.
Banter. ...discussion.
No one reports. ...no one loses sleep :)
 
Llamaman said:
That's what Oisin Tymon thought...
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Let's discuss that again when he fails to pursue a civil case.
I'll not be holding my breath.
 
We co
Cobra said:
Bloody hell!
Ruth and Brash have kissed and made up, I'll get the bunting out, and crack open the champagne in the staff room (y)
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We cool.
 
A load of people die in an air crash, yet some are more concerned about some bloody journalist being binned from a TV show. This is one fuqed up country.
 
I am confused. I read on the newspaper today that there was complete silence from the co-pilot. This to me does not confirm he committed suicide. Isn't there are possibility that maybe something happened to him? A heart attack maybe?
 
ziggy© said:
I am confused. I read on the newspaper today that there was complete silence from the co-pilot. This to me does not confirm he committed suicide. Isn't there are possibility that maybe something happened to him? A heart attack maybe?
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I would suggest not as he took deliberate actions to lock the other pilot out of the cockpit and to make the airplane descend, he could also be heard breathing in the cockpit
 
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Some pretty telling evidence apparently pertaining to the copilots psychological state (both current and historical) have been removed from his home according to news outlets.
 
Media now reporting the crash was deliberate and speculating as to the pilot's state of mind

The US have a 2 person rule, in that if one of the pilots leaves the cockpit, then a flight attendant must stay in the cockpit until the pilot returns ie there must never be one person alone at the controls.

Calls for this to be implemented - some airlines already do, some do not

thought of the Moorgate tube disaster in 1975, when instead of stopping, the driver crashed his train into a dead end causing several deaths and injuries. Cause never established
 
viv1969 said:
Some pretty telling evidence apparently pertaining to the copilots psychological state (both current and historical) have been removed from his home according to news outlets.
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So, documents were removed from the co-pilot's home yesterday, and the press are already saying that these documents contain damming evidence of mental illness...

And the French prosecuting magistrate has made a public statement about the cause of the crash, within hours of the recovery of the 'black box' - such an early statement must be very unusual, if not unique.

Personally, I will wait for the official investigation to be completed (it has only just started) and for the findings to be published before I attach blame to anyone. Let's face it, governments, the police and official bodies have a pretty poor track record when it comes to truthful and accurate statements about people and events.
 
Garry Edwards said:
So, documents were removed from the co-pilot's home yesterday, and the press are already saying that these documents contain damming evidence of mental illness...

And the French prosecuting magistrate has made a public statement about the cause of the crash, within hours of the recovery of the 'black box' - such an early statement must be very unusual, if not unique.

Personally, I will wait for the official investigation to be completed (it has only just started) and for the findings to be published before I attach blame to anyone. Let's face it, governments, the police and official bodies have a pretty poor track record when it comes to truthful and accurate statements about people and events.
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Good for you.
I was merely repeating what I had seen on the news.
 
Garry Edwards said:
And the French prosecuting magistrate has made a public statement about the cause of the crash, within hours of the recovery of the 'black box' - such an early statement must be very unusual, if not unique.
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Although if it has been established that:-
  • The Captain had been locked out of the cabin (deliberate over-ride action required from inside the cabin).
  • The plane had been manually set to descend (deliberate over-ride action required from inside the cabin).
  • The Co-Pilot was alive inside the cabin at the time.
It is hard to think that such an initial public statement shouldn't be made ... after all the integrity of the aircraft was initially called into question.
 
gramps said:
Although if it has been established that:-
  • The Captain had been locked out of the cabin (deliberate over-ride action required from inside the cabin).
  • The plane had been manually set to descend (deliberate over-ride action required from inside the cabin).
  • The Co-Pilot was alive inside the cabin at the time.
It is hard to think that such an initial public statement shouldn't be made ... after all the integrity of the aircraft was initially called into question.
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Maybe these facts have been established, maybe not.
But has it been established that the co-pilot was alone in the cabin at the time? Suppose that he wasn't alone and that he was acting under duress?
And before anyone says that the sound recording doesn't show that, it is a long established principle that the absence of evidence is not evidence.

FWIW, that isn't my theory - I don't have a theory because, like everyone else, I don't have any facts on which to base a theory. So far, the only known fact is that there has been a tragic loss of life.
 
Garry Edwards said:
So far, the only known fact is that there has been a tragic loss of life.
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Well the above facts are also known ... unless you actually do have a theory and that it is one of conspiracy :)
 
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Not a lot of point in having flight recorders then, if what they show is to be disbelieved :rolleyes:
 
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viv1969 said:
Not a lot of point in having flight recorders then, if what they show is to be disbelieved :rolleyes:
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I don't disagree, all that I'm saying is that the ONLY evidence so far seems to be that of the flight recorder, the discovery and analysis of other evidence may or may not support what we are TOLD is on the flight recorder.
ST4 said:
I think the information speaks for itself. Its a rather chilling and grotesque thought but its pretty clear whats happened.
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It may be clear to you. I prefer evidence to information.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Maybe these facts have been established, maybe not.
But has it been established that the co-pilot was alone in the cabin at the time? Suppose that he wasn't alone and that he was acting under duress?
And before anyone says that the sound recording doesn't show that, it is a long established principle that the absence of evidence is not evidence.
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I assume the Cockpit Voice Recorder 'hears' the door being opened and closed (it can hear someone banging outside) so the investigators would already know if someone else entered the cockpit after the Captain left.
 
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Seems he had been diagnosed with depression and reports are saying that 'sick notes' have been found by the police at his home, they were ripped up ... including one covering the day of the crash - if true he should not have been flying.
 
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