How do you shoot the first dance at a wedding?

Rooster

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I did a wedding recently and it went ok but I was a bit bemused about how to photograph the first dance. Ok, so we have a moving subject in low-light conditions. So I set up a couple of flashguns on stands with shoot-through umbrellas and manual flash triggers. I set the speedlights to manual and half-power and positioned them along one side of the dance floor, angled to catch the middle of the floor in their crossfire. On my camera I went to manual, 1/90th of a second exposure and used the aperture to regulate how much light reached the sensor, just like in the studio. Experimentation showed f/11 was about right.

So this efficiently lit the dance floor and froze the couple in mid-dance. However the shutter speed also allowed very little of the ambient lighting through so it looks harsh and cold with no disco lights. After some playing around I've decided to use CS5's effects filters to add spotlights and Knoll Light Factory to add some special effects. Dragging the shutter more would have allowed ambient light in but the couple would have been blurred to some degree. Is it just a trade-off you have to make?

How do you do it?
 
What ISO?
 
I'd never use umbrellas for a first dance, the light spills everywhere and I want drama, I'd use a snoot if I thought I could predict the position of the couple.

F11 is reserved for the large group shot, everything else at a wedding is 5.6 or larger. I never let the power of my flash dictate my aperture, I generally live in AV mode because DoF is the only 'artistic' control my camera has (all flash is shot Manual, but DoF is still a primary concern). Caveat, I might go to a smaller aperture to turn an off camera flash into a 'starlight'.

Like all flash/ ambient mixes, the key is to control the ambient first, I can't give you settings because venues differ, and so does what I want to achieve. Once I'm set for the ambient, the flash is easy to mix in, whether on or off camera, ETTL or manual, all work as long as you understand how to control it. The best tool for the job is ETTL triggers, allowing the OCF to be controlled manually or automatically from the camera position.

You only need to fear long exposures causing blur on your couple when the ambient is getting close to a stop under or less.

You're juggling a lot of info regarding flashes, which is why it's great to have set your ambient prior so you can forget about it.
 
Phil V said:
I'd never use umbrellas for a first dance, the light spills everywhere and I want drama, I'd use a snoot if I thought I could predict the position of the couple.

F11 is reserved for the large group shot, everything else at a wedding is 5.6 or larger. I never let the power of my flash dictate my aperture, I generally live in AV mode because DoF is the only 'artistic' control my camera has (all flash is shot Manual, but DoF is still a primary concern). Caveat, I might go to a smaller aperture to turn an off camera flash into a 'starlight'.

Like all flash/ ambient mixes, the key is to control the ambient first, I can't give you settings because venues differ, and so does what I want to achieve. Once I'm set for the ambient, the flash is easy to mix in, whether on or off camera, ETTL or manual, all work as long as you understand how to control it. The best tool for the job is ETTL triggers, allowing the OCF to be controlled manually or automatically from the camera position.

You only need to fear long exposures causing blur on your couple when the ambient is getting close to a stop under or less.

You're juggling a lot of info regarding flashes, which is why it's great to have set your ambient prior so you can forget about it.
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Hi Phil,

can you talk me through this please? You say to control the ambient light first. So, say an exposure of half a second gives a pleasing ambient light I dial that in on manual. Then there is flash added to light the subject. Presumably rear-curtain sync? I did do this after the first dance when the dance floor filled up. I just put the camera on the tripod, flash on top and roamed around taking shots hoping to get lucky. Some reasonably fun shots ensued with coloured spotlights all over but there was still some movement blur evident. Then again the newlyweds were doing a slow dance whereas by this stage everyone was jumping around so there wouldn't have been as much blur for the couple. I do have ETTL triggers but they had let me down earlier in the day so I switched to the manuals.

As for snoots, I think I would have been scurrying around changing the position of the lights as the couple stuck to one end of the dance floor instead of going to the middle. What I'm thinking of doing next time is exposing for ambient and using a proper strobe with a gridded beauty dish to light them up, if I have to scamper about to catch them in its light then so be it.

I take it there's no generally accepted way of getting these shots then?
 
Rooster said:
It works fine when using flash, it just kills ambient light.
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I know. But considering you complained that,

Rooster said:
the shutter speed also allowed very little of the ambient lighting through so it looks harsh and cold with no disco lights.
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and then resorted to messing around on the computer in an attempt to fix it, changing your ISO and/or aperture would've been a good move. (y)
 
Rooster said:
I stuck to ISO 100.
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I actually figured that might be the answer hence the question. As stated above you have obliterated all ambient light in the scene. As you introduce ambient light into the scene by increasing the ISO and widening the aperture the flash doesn't need to work so hard to provide a good exposure and the ambient light acts like a nice fill keeping the ambience of the scene.

First dance in a dark venue I'd be 800-1600 ISO and aperture maybe f5.6 (or wider) and the SS slow to bring in the ambient light to taste - 2 stops under the proper exposure is a starting point for me. my mate shoots with 2 speedlights and f16 on the camera - Gives a starburst effect :)

Lots of ways to shoot the dance but firstly you need to understand how to use flash
 
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Mostly I shoot it in AV mode with aperture set at f2.8, ISO at 3200 (or higher if I need a quicker shutter speed) with assistant/2nd shooter holding a video light over my shoulder aiming it at the couple.....no flash needed. Once they are in the bag, then I get busy with on or off camera flash.

If you were killing your ambient light, why didn't you increase your ISO and lower the power of the flash?!:thinking:

ISO 100 and f11 is, imo, an odd/brave combination for a first dance.....
 
Slimbert said:
ISO 100 and f11 is, imo, an odd/brave combination for a first dance.....
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Not brave - odd yes. It shows a lack of understanding on how to use flash. It can be difficult to get at the start but once it clicks Rooster will understand why it's odd ;)
 
Rooster said:
Hi Phil,

can you talk me through this please? You say to control the ambient light first. So, say an exposure of half a second gives a pleasing ambient light I dial that in on manual. Then there is flash added to light the subject. Presumably rear-curtain sync? I did do this after the first dance when the dance floor filled up. I just put the camera on the tripod, flash on top and roamed around taking shots hoping to get lucky. Some reasonably fun shots ensued with coloured spotlights all over but there was still some movement blur evident. Then again the newlyweds were doing a slow dance whereas by this stage everyone was jumping around so there wouldn't have been as much blur for the couple. I do have ETTL triggers but they had let me down earlier in the day so I switched to the manuals.

As for snoots, I think I would have been scurrying around changing the position of the lights as the couple stuck to one end of the dance floor instead of going to the middle. What I'm thinking of doing next time is exposing for ambient and using a proper strobe with a gridded beauty dish to light them up, if I have to scamper about to catch them in its light then so be it.

I take it there's no generally accepted way of getting these shots then?
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I did talk you through it.

It appears you don't have an understanding of how flash exposures work. It's a bit much to go into in a response here, but basically your ambient and flash are 2 different exposures, balance to taste. Whether that's overpowering the mid-day sun with masses of flash or a gentle kiss of orange flash to help a candlelit shot.

Your decisions appear to be not decisions at all, why are you shooting at ISO100 f11? And why would you think I'd choose a half second exposure for the ambient, that's just asking for blurry shots?

Your shutter speed and aperture decisions should be based on the effect you want in your photograph (it seems so obvious I can't believe I've had to write it twice). Obviously you're handheld, so your shutter speed should remain in the hand-holdable range, we'll assume it's fairly dark so we don't need HSS, so that's say 1/30 - 1/200.

You need enough DoF to get them both sharp, let's say F/4 for the full length shot (anything from 1.8 dependant on distance and FL).

So then your ISO is chosen to get the background how you want it (maybe a stop under?). Balance the flash in now, whether on or off camera, ETTL or Manual. Second curtain sync isn't necessary, will make no difference to your shot. Search the forum for either my posts or Hoppy's on the subject, the web is so full of misinformation about this.
 
Just to add a little, though you should really read what Phil says...

Two guns,
1. bare gun 580 hung from the DJs lighting stand (so that my light looks 'believable'), aimed at centre of dance floor, on a 622 and ratio'd to my
2. local 580 TTL that is either hand-held or on a side bracket to provide local fill for faces.

Notes:

- I can vary my angle to that remote, which gives me a number of different effects by shifting my ars3. Total backlit (rim), backlit with a hint of fill, starburst from low angle and through dry-ice, side lit, through the lasers.
- The above effects can be varied according to the ratio between the remote and my local ttl gun.
- The point is to augment the location lighting at the reception, not overpower it. This requires a high ISO to remain close to ambient.
- A few shots at lower speeds to blur the dress slightly.
- A shoot through would totally kill any special location ambient - it's their venue, not mine, and they choose it. I don't want a reception dance to look like midday, because it wasn't midday, and not how the couple remember their dance at all.
- Don't let your light control you, control it.
- Hard light is not a problem. It's natural at a first dance. Soft light wouldn't suit the mood at all.
- If the ambient is so beautiful, no external light at all.
 
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it took me ages to get my head around usign high ISO and slow shutter speeds when using flash and getting the ambient light in

as mentioned, settings for ambient light to look good, then add flash..

i did an event last night ISO was at between 800-1600
 
I watched a creative live with Zach & Jody Gray, their setup was as follows:

Shoot at 1 stop below ambient level @ f/2.8 with 1/100 and ISO to suit (800-1600) just use flash to make the subject brighter than the background, they also add one flash at the rear to separate the couple from the background so:

One flash on a light stand pointing at the middle of the dance floor - 1/32 power - 7-8ft in the air

Other flash is handheld with a micro appollo softbox 6-8 ft from B&G, in manual at a suitable power to light B&G

or else bounce flash on top of the camera again adjusted power to suit..

Lights can have a 1/2 CTO on them to balance with the venue..

Plenty of links online of them doing it..
 
Last wedding I did the first dance with a bare flash at the far end of the dance floor on full power, 24mm zoom, iso 200, 1/125, f3.5 and mostly got this kind of shot:

View attachment 8627

I had to bring up the shadows a fair bit in post so I did more research and discovered I would have been better off using 2 flashes opposite each other at a far enough distance that their crossing points covered the whole dance floor with the same aperture (using the inverse square rule to work out distance) so there wouldn't have been such drastic shadows. I don't worry about ambient light too much for the first dance as I want to keep the shutter speed fast enough to freeze the action and keep the iso low for less grainy images - although I might reconsider this now I have gone a full frame.

Kris said:
bare gun 580 hung from the DJs lighting stand (so that my light looks 'believable')
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This is a really good idea, hadn't thought of that, thanks :)
 
As a newbie to flash and not fully understanding it yet, this thread is immense for learning so thank you all. Sandy you defy what everyone else has said but the results are exactly what I am trying to achieve one day!
 
SandyMcClure said:
True but I'm controlling the lighting with the flash, I want as clean an image as possible as it will be a completely different lighting to the rest of the wedding and they often end up being cover images.

I'm also a bit anal about grain, something I'm trying not to worry about as much.
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You are controlling the light but that could be to the detriment of the image that "could" be created bringing in more ambient to the scene.

You won't see noise in any prints..... I've shot ISO64000 and in a small print they looked fine lol

Also at ISO200 you'll use up more flash power slowing down how quickly you can actually shoot.
 
I shot some gymnastics at 12,800 ISO on a D4 a few weeks ago and printed out as 12x8 with no noticeable noise.

Some wedding photographers make a feature of noise and I'll swear that they add it in to certain images if they cant produce it in camera .

Everybody has their own way of doing this, but have a look at www.Fstoppers.com.

They sell a 14 hour DVD download on wedding photography. Although it's priced at $299, there are several free excerpts on their site promoting the DVD, and one of these excerpts is specifically about lighting the reception / first dance.

You'll need to hunt around as I dont have the exact link anymore.
 
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EOS_JD said:
You are controlling the light but that could be to the detriment of the image that "could" be created bringing in more ambient to the scene.

You won't see noise in any prints..... I've shot ISO64000 and in a small print they looked fine lol

Also at ISO200 you'll use up more flash power slowing down how quickly you can actually shoot.
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It's a reasonable point, this is just the way I have been doing things, I'm always happy to try new methods. Tbh, the flash recharge time is quite annoying so I'll give it a go on Saturday, cheers.
 
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