Monitor upgrade advice for photography/gaming

Messages
1,908
Name
Tony
Edit My Images
Yes
I'm upgrading my monitor for photography / light gaming, looking for a 24" IPS 1920x1200 monitor.

Think I've narrowed it down to these:
  • DELL U2412M - £230 - 95.8% sRGB (+Calibrator)
  • DELL U2413 - £390 - 100% sRGB (Factory Calibrated)
I was going for the U2412M + calibrator since I don't need wide-gamut support but after looking at customer reviews & quality issues I'm now thinking the U2413 might be a better option for quality and be more future proof.

What would you recommend?
 
depending how important gaming is to you, consider 120/144hz monitor, is nicer :)
 
I have a 2412 (using it now) and it's not a bad monitor, although not a terrific one either. Tends to be a little lacking in shadow detail and yet glares at the same time. It's not calibrated, so that might partly explain that.
 
Last edited:
Colour accuracy is more important than gaming so just the bog standard 60hz will do.

When you say the U2412M isn't terrific what are you comparing it too? Is anyone using a calibrated one and having problems?
 
Last edited:
2412 is a good monitor when calibrated.

If photography is the primary use, I'd not sacrifice colour accuracy for gaming.

If you are getting the 2413.. you MUST get the i1 Display Pro colorimeter to go with it, then you can calibrate it at 14bit hardware level using Dell's custom software... hdardware calibration at 14bit level outside of the GPUs 8bit level is a MASSIVE bonus. Software calibration (most non high-end screens) may well be accurate for colour and gamma, but it actually increases artefacts like banding on gradients due to stretching and manipulating the GPUs 8 bit output. Calibrating the monitors 14bit LTU directly avoids all this. I used to have a Eizo SX3031W screen that wasn't hardware capable, and while good, since upgrading to the Eizo GC303W and calibrating at 12bit level the difference is astounding in tonality.

Dell 2413 and i1 Display Pro. Will still be good for gaming (it's reasonably quick for a IPS screen and doesn't suffer too horribly in the input lag stakes) but will be utterly brilliant for photography calibrated at hardware level. I'd probably say it's pretty much as good as the Eizo GC series.
 
Colour accuracy is more important than gaming so just the bog standard 60hz will do.

When you say the U2412M isn't terrific what are you comparing it too? Is anyone using a calibrated one and having problems?

I'm comparing it to a samsung 206BW (20" 1620:1080, not IPS) which has less glare and smoother presentation. There's nothing *wrong* with the Dell at all, and I've considered buying one for home use.
 
2412 is a good monitor when calibrated.

If photography is the primary use, I'd not sacrifice colour accuracy for gaming.

If you are getting the 2413.. you MUST get the i1 Display Pro colorimeter to go with it, then you can calibrate it at 14bit hardware level using Dell's custom software... hdardware calibration at 14bit level outside of the GPUs 8bit level is a MASSIVE bonus. Software calibration (most non high-end screens) may well be accurate for colour and gamma, but it actually increases artefacts like banding on gradients due to stretching and manipulating the GPUs 8 bit output. Calibrating the monitors 14bit LTU directly avoids all this. I used to have a Eizo SX3031W screen that wasn't hardware capable, and while good, since upgrading to the Eizo GC303W and calibrating at 12bit level the difference is astounding in tonality.

Dell 2413 and i1 Display Pro. Will still be good for gaming (it's reasonably quick for a IPS screen and doesn't suffer too horribly in the input lag stakes) but will be utterly brilliant for photography calibrated at hardware level. I'd probably say it's pretty much as good as the Eizo GC series.

Thanks for the in-depth details. I will be working using an sRGB workflow, mainly because it's simpler to setup and I don't think I need to go over the top with adobe RGB for my use.

When you compare the 2412 & 2413 in the same colour space is the image quality difference still going to be that noticeable?

With the 2413, since the GPU output is 8-bit to the monitor it will be running in the standard gamut. The only way I can see to make use of the additional range of the monitor is to either get an nvidia quadro card (with 10-bit support in the drivers) or if nvidia release drivers that support 10-bit output on consumer cards, unless I've missed something?

I'm comparing it to a samsung 206BW (20" 1620:1080, not IPS) which has less glare and smoother presentation. There's nothing *wrong* with the Dell at all, and I've considered buying one for home use.

Would you say it's more of a good entry-level photography monitor? and calibration is required to get rid of it's few initial shortfalls? This is what makes me think maybe investing in the next model up, even though I won't make use of most the features will mean it will last much longer before another upgrade is needed :)
 
I bought the 2412 because I needed a large monitor for spreadsheets to analyse data, rather than for photography. If you can afford better then it's likely worthwhile. I read lots of reviews that seemed to say it was better than conventional LCD, but wasn't a *great* IPS panel, with uneven lighting. While calibration might fix it, I've not managed to get good detail in blacks on it, although separation of light tones is good.
 
Thanks for the in-depth details. I will be working using an sRGB workflow, mainly because it's simpler to setup and I don't think I need to go over the top with adobe RGB for my use.

When you compare the 2412 & 2413 in the same colour space is the image quality difference still going to be that noticeable?

With the 2413, since the GPU output is 8-bit to the monitor it will be running in the standard gamut. The only way I can see to make use of the additional range of the monitor is to either get an nvidia quadro card (with 10-bit support in the drivers) or if nvidia release drivers that support 10-bit output on consumer cards, unless I've missed something?



Would you say it's more of a good entry-level photography monitor? and calibration is required to get rid of it's few initial shortfalls? This is what makes me think maybe investing in the next model up, even though I won't make use of most the features will mean it will last much longer before another upgrade is needed :)


You can hardware calibrate in sRGB mode if you want. The quality will not suffer, nor will accuracy.... you'll just have the smaller colourspace of sRGB.

8bit or 14bit has nothing to do with the gamut. Technically, your input to the monitor will be 8bit, because that's what your GPU outputs. The screen is 8bit too. The whole point of the 14bit LTU is to be able to manipulate that 8bit output to calibrate it within a larger space to avoid artefacts.... it's just a larger than 8bit space to work in.
 
I think I should have said in my last question that I was comparing the monitors out of the box with no calibration (software or hardware). With the same 8-bit output from the GPU they should have the same range of colours to work with, that is until the monitor LUT is calibrated to show a different value for a given input value. I'll try and do an example:

sRGB
Software (8-bit) -> GPU (8-bit) -> LUT (8-bit) -> Monitor (8-bit) -> Monitor LUT (14-bit) -> Display (8-bit sRGB)

adobe RGB
Software (10-bit) -> GPU (10-bit) -> LUT (8-bit due to current driver limitation) -> Monitor (8-bit) -> Monitor LUT (14-bit) -> Display (8-bit sRGB)

Uncalibrated 8-bit lookup
GPU output (128, 0, 0) -> monitor LUT (8192, 0, 0) -> Same red

Calibrated 8-bit lookup
GPU output (128, 0, 0) -> monitor LUT (8195, 0, 0) -> slightly more red (can't be represented in 8-bit)

Does that make sense?
Something along the lines of,: the software calibration can only adjust for normal differences but the monitor hardware calibration give finer control and requires a specific i1 Display Pro calibrator.
 
Buy one of each and let us know which is best Tony as I need three. LOL
 
I think I should have said in my last question that I was comparing the monitors out of the box with no calibration (software or hardware). With the same 8-bit output from the GPU they should have the same range of colours to work with, that is until the monitor LUT is calibrated to show a different value for a given input value. I'll try and do an example:

sRGB
Software (8-bit) -> GPU (8-bit) -> LUT (8-bit) -> Monitor (8-bit) -> Monitor LUT (14-bit) -> Display (8-bit sRGB)

adobe RGB
Software (10-bit) -> GPU (10-bit) -> LUT (8-bit due to current driver limitation) -> Monitor (8-bit) -> Monitor LUT (14-bit) -> Display (8-bit sRGB)

Uncalibrated 8-bit lookup
GPU output (128, 0, 0) -> monitor LUT (8192, 0, 0) -> Same red

Calibrated 8-bit lookup
GPU output (128, 0, 0) -> monitor LUT (8195, 0, 0) -> slightly more red (can't be represented in 8-bit)

Does that make sense?
Something along the lines of,: the software calibration can only adjust for normal differences but the monitor hardware calibration give finer control and requires a specific i1 Display Pro calibrator.


Why are you saying that in sRGB the monitor's LUT is only 8 bit? A 14bit LUT will be 14bit whether it's parsing a 8bit signal or a higher bit depth.

You are correct in assuming that the same un-calibrated 8bit output will be passed to the display without any modifications, yes, but the LCD panel/backlighting/overdrive and processing circuitry in the monitor will add something to the final image. NO monitor is perfect out of the box (even Dell's suposedly pre-calibrated screens.. in fact, they're awfully calibrated).

The reason 8 bit software calibration is the poor relation to "hitting the metal" is that the 8bit signal/workspace is already full (although cheaper screens are actually 6 bit with dithering). In order to shift anything around in that 8bit RGB workspace to change colour or gamma, there is no room to manoeuvre... something has to be thrown away in order to change it. This usually results in banding in subtle tones when the results are sent to the 8bit panel. However, if you manipulate that 8bit workspace within a wider 12 or 14bit space, then you won't need to lose anything. The wider workspace is then remapped correctly back into a 10 or 8 bit space and fed to the screen.

This is exactly how colour profiles work. Just because you have calibrated your monitor in it's native gamma mode (99% of Adobe RGB in the case of the 2413) doesn't mean your sRGB images will have more colour when viewed so long as they are correctly embedded or converted to the sRGB workspace. They will look exactly the same as they would on a sRGB screen because the ICC profile is remapping the colours to display correctly. If your software and OS is correctly colour managed, then a wide gamut screen should still be correctly showing the more limited colourspace of a sRGB file.

Wide gamut screens only cause problems with non colour managed applications like games, video, TV and some web browsers (but unfortunately, most web sites) and then they will display with too much saturation in colours. This is why you convert your images to sRGB if you intent to publish online. For instance... I often see images posted on here that are in Adobe RGB1998 and they look fine to me, as I have my workflow colour managed in Adobe RGB (or at least 98% of it), yet other people have said it looks washed out... because they are viewing it in a sRGB workspace that's not colur managed. Conversely, I often see sRGB gamut images that have not been embedded with the sRGB profile that look really oversaturated here because there's no profile... my wide gamut workflow just expands the colourspace to fit... yet others with sRGB monitors simply do not see the problem.

If you get the 2413 and i1 combo.. you can hardware calibrate it in sRGB if you want, and that solves any potential conflict, but you don't have to run in sRGB to correctly view sRGB images... that's what the whole concept of ICC profiles is for.

Do some research on colour profiling, and colour management. If it confuses you.... run in sRGB. Calibrate the 2413 in sRGB and embed all your images with sRGB and you'll never have a problem.

If you do understand it, make use of the wider colourspace available, because many printers can exploit it.


If you never print, chances are you'll never need anything other than sRGB. Most commercial labs insist on sRGB embedded images anyway... not because that's all they can handle, but because they can't be arsed trying to sort out badly managed files with no or incorrect profiles.

If you print yourself to a decent printer... there are many advantages to a wide gamut workflow.. which many high end inkjet printers can handle.
 
Last edited:
sRGB
Software (8-bit) -> GPU (8-bit) -> LUT (8-bit) -> Monitor (8-bit) -> Monitor LUT (14-bit) -> Display (8-bit sRGB)

adobe RGB
Software (10-bit) -> GPU (10-bit) -> LUT (8-bit due to current driver limitation) -> Monitor (8-bit) -> Monitor LUT (14-bit) -> Display (8-bit sRGB)

Why are you saying that in sRGB the monitor's LUT is only 8 bit? A 14bit LUT will be 14bit whether it's parsing a 8bit signal or a higher bit depth.

May have caused some confusion there, the first LUT in the above is the GPU (8-bit driver limitation on nvidia consumer cards) and the second is the Monitor LUT (14-bit).

Thanks for the detailed explanation, the difference between the monitors appears to be much greater than I first thought for colour accuracy at a professional level.

Since I'm not at that level, export with sRGB profiles embeded and don't do prints would you rule out the U2412M? is there monitor in the middle you would recommend? especially when you factor in the cost of a monitor calibrator with each option.
 
Ahh.. I get it. You wouldn't normally list the GPU and it's LTU as separate entities, so that confused me.

No.. I would not rule it out. You may not need the gamut.. but the hardware profiling is definitely nice to have.

If you feel it's overkill... then I'd get a Dell U2410 and just software profile it.. still with a i1 Display Pro though.... cracking colorimeter that... with great software.
 
Sorry about that, I listed them separately to highlight the consumer GPU.

What setup are you running btw? I assume you use a wide-gamut workflow with a workstation grade GPU?

I've updated the options including an i1 Pro calibrator:
  • U2412M ~£390
  • U2413 ~£535
  • U2410 ~£535
Still leaves the tough decision of 2412 or 2413 though :)
 
I have two machines... one here, one in the studio... both are identical in every respect except the studio machine has a NVidia Quadro K6000 GPU (full 10bit workflow), and my home machine has 2x GTX670s ( I also game on the home machine)

Intel i7 3960X @ 4.7GHz
Asus Rampage IV Extreme motherboard
Corsair H100 cooling
16GB RAM @ 2133MHz

Main screen: Eizo CG303W hardware profiled using ColorNavigator and a i1 Display Pro
Second Screen: Dell 2007FP in portrait mode. (Only calibrated visually... only used for toolbars etc.)

For what it's worth... I can see no visible difference between the studio machine and this one, despite this one having a 8bit GPU output. The only reason I haven't flogged the Quadro card is the extra grunt it gives me in video encoding. I don't use the studio machine much, because I don't shoot all that much anymore since going into education... sadly... I have no plans to get rid though, as knowing me, I'll get bored of teaching and start shooting professionally again no doubt.

Here's the home machine.

Click for full size... then click again to zoom (May not work on phones and tablets)



BTW.. the Dell U2410 is still wide gamut... so actually.... I'd still get the U2413 as it can be hardware profiled in sRGB better... but either way, both are superb screens. I wouldn't feel let down by software profiling if I were you. I used to have a Eizo SX3031W before this ColorEdge, and that was only software profiled as the SX series have no programmable LUT. It was still superb.
 
Last edited:
Nice setup. Way too good for my needs :)

With the i1 Display Pro and hardware calibrated screen, can it then be checked in the software? (reporting mode rather than calibration mode).
 
I can't comment about hardware LUT since mine doesn't support it but I can tell you that regular "soft" calibration already makes a massive difference over factory DELL setup.

One thing to consider about 2412 M - the 'M' means it has millions - or far less colour. It is 6bit display with some clever trickery.
 
Thanks for all your help! I took the plunge and went for the Dell U2413.

My first IPS panel so I was expecting a little IPS glow, even less with it being a higher end model but wasn't expecting it to be this noticeable.

Is this an acceptable amount?

IMG_5145.jpg
 
Back
Top