Nikon goes mirrorless

[maninsuitcase]

I do quite like them as an idea, a bigger compact with DSLR quality. Having to go into menus for PASM may or may not be an issue (stick it in A and off you go) so long as changing the value is easy without a menu.

The biggest problems for me are the price (V1 & 10-30 is D7000 money) and the fact you can't add accessories to the J1. A J1 with an accessory port would be worth a punt imo but the fact you need a V1 (and another ~£300) for a external mic was a bad idea given the sort of video this can produce.

That said in a year or so once market forces happen I would consider one, but that would mean I need a manbag to carry it in so I actually have it to hand....

 

[a1ex2001]

So now we just await the arrival of Canon in the market at which point with al the big plaers in the competition we should start to see some real inovations and price falls.

 

[Dave-3]

A sensor smaller than Oly's.
Well, well, well - how would have thought it!
Oly 1 Nikon 0

 

[Dave-3]

With the arrival of the new Nikonette.

Now that the weather is nice and misty most days, I think it's time for a comparison shoot-out between all these new CSCs.

We would not have to worry too much about image sharpness, colour, etc., and could concentrate on the relative merits of in-camera functions, to render a scene into an artistic picture.

With precognition mode we could rate images before we even see them and declare our own favorite make the winner and clearly better than the oppositions rendering... :|

Then there is the aesthetics of these "pretty little things"! Surely that must be more important than Image Quality

The larger of the two Nikons is as ugly as *****!!!!
Oly make the prettiest CSCs.

 

[NikkiA]

Have you used an EVF recently? They're getting to the point where they're better in some ways to an OVF in good light, and in terrible light they at least give you the option to MF where AF will fail and the naked eye sees little.

yes, I have, it still had really awful fringing and smearing. To the point where despite all the problems of framing on a rear LCD, the size of it is still enough to make it more pleasant than the EVF, and yes, this was on 2010/2011 models.

 

[Volusian]

wonder when Nikon will release some New "PROPER" cameras ?

 

[andy1868]

hmmmmmmmm i'll monitor this situation with great interest, i was planning a smaller camera that i could carry everywhere with me (smaller than my D7000 anyway) to be honest i was looking more at a G12 or P7100 type camera but i might be able to be swung towards one of these depending on price etc

 

[HoppyUK]

Does anyone know, or can link to, how the focal plane phase-detect AF works? Could be interesting?

 

[amnesia]

So what's being unveiled in two hours ?

http://www.iamcomings.com/

or is it just the US unveiling of the V1 ?

 

[Slaphead]

So what's being unveiled in two hours ?

http://www.iamcomings.com/

or is it just the US unveiling of the V1 ?

I don't know but I can wait till tomorrow. By then there'll be a nice big juicy fat thread on here telling me everything I need to know, meaning I can go down the pub tonight without worrying I'll be missing something.

 

[MartynK]

We'll see, once the reviews start to appear, but I can't see anything that appeals to me so far.

FWIW, the two females who mean the most to me - my wife and daughter - both loathe pink!

 

[Trig's]

/GirlyMomentAlert

OMG!! I DON'T CARE how capable it is, I just WANT one NOW!! It is SOOOOO CUTE!!

/GirlyMomentAlert/Off

Would that be because it comes in pink :shrug:

If your anything like my OH then as its pink she'll want one

 

[Ffoeg]

Got this via email form Nikon earlier today , and it's full of gen...

https://nikoneurope-en.custhelp.com/ci/documents/view/1/AvUq~wqrKv8SKaZZGhce~yL~Jvkq~xv~1Gowbzr~

 

[Slaphead]

Ok, couldn't wait in the end so I'm posting this from the pub. Nikon is very late to the EVIL party so these cameras need to be something special - everybody else is now into the second or third generation, not to mention that Nikon don't have the best reputation in the compact sector.

I can't deny my interest, especially considering you can use F mount lenses with an adaptor, although I've yet to see full compatiblity details. I'm assuming that they'll really only work with AF-S G models.

The other reason why these cameras need to be a bit special is the price. The advanced model is coming in close to that of a body only D7000 over here, and given the general image performance is only likely to match that of my old D40x it will take a lot of thought before I hand over my hard earned.

CLS is a big question for me. I see no hotshoe so putting my SU800 on it doesn't look possible, so that's put a dampner on my idea of sticking the 105 with macro speedlights for the ultimate macro camera - the effective depth of field from that sensor would be incredible.

Ah well - way too much speculation on my part - I'll wait for more info and reviews.

 

[ausemmao]

Does anyone know, or can link to, how the focal plane phase-detect AF works? Could be interesting?

I'd imagine it's pixels + lenses embedded into the sensor, given it's continuously exposed. At the resolutions offered and above, losing 10-20 pixels in a line or cross is no big deal - you're talking maybe 3k pixels from 10 million. Other than that it should be identical to DSLR phase detect. That's why I think it's huge, it's another nail in the mirror box's coffin. Battery capacity and high frequency high resolution EVFs are the other nails to come.

 

[ausemmao]

yes, I have, it still had really awful fringing and smearing. To the point where despite all the problems of framing on a rear LCD, the size of it is still enough to make it more pleasant than the EVF, and yes, this was on 2010/2011 models.

Fair enough. They are getting better though, and quite quickly.

 

[gingerweasel]

EPIC FAIL - Someone should get fired for the money this is going to lose.

• General compact buyers won't look to invest in additional lenses.
• Serious photographers won't settle for the small sensor at this price point.
• Adding an F Mount lens onto this defeats the whole purpose of the 'small' system camera.

I know most cameras don't tick every box but does this even tick one?

 

[HoppyUK]

I'd imagine it's pixels + lenses embedded into the sensor, given it's continuously exposed. At the resolutions offered and above, losing 10-20 pixels in a line or cross is no big deal - you're talking maybe 3k pixels from 10 million. Other than that it should be identical to DSLR phase detect. That's why I think it's huge, it's another nail in the mirror box's coffin. Battery capacity and high frequency high resolution EVFs are the other nails to come.

Phase-detect AF looks fore and aft of the focused point, not left/right or top/bottom. At least that's how it works in DSLRs, and that's fundamental to its speed. Even when out of focus, it knows where the sharpest point is and sends the lens straight to it

Sony needed to put a translucent mirror in place of the conventional flipping mirror to do it with their SLT cameras. Not sure about this new Nikon jobbie, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

[arclight]

On one hand, I admire the technology. On the other I can't help wondering what's going to happen to photography. Missed the decisive moment? Doesn't matter, now you can choose which moment that was.

Yeah, I'm probably a luddite in that regard.

I have always loved the feel and joy of using my film SLR's and get the same satisfaction from my DSLR's. Until something appears that can surpass that feel I'll not feel the slightest temptation to change.

 

[dd1989]

Just my 2p.

Sony have got the right idea with the large sensor, but it limits their ability to make the lenses small. Right now you can make the body as small as you want, but as soon as you attach one of the slow kit lenses, you're looking at a camera that's not *that* compact.

I think Olympus and Panasonic have got this all very right now, the new PEN has incredible auto focus and the new primes are looking really good, especially the 12mm f2.0, which despite carrying a hefty price tag, is a true Zuiko product, i.e. build quality that's superb for a modern digital product, and great performance to match.

So, where does this new Nikon fit in? Well, it doesn't. The sensor is just too small and you may as well buy a high quality superzoom or compact. It's funny though, despite how small the sensor is, the lenses still look big? If they're trying to go compact, they go compact, don't come out with a product that has awful ergonomics (you need to go in to a sub menu to change shooting mode...) and a small sensor, but with big lenses.

Try again Nikon if you want to get people who are serious about shooting.

 

[vrapan]

I don't get it at all... The major advantage of Nikon is their extensive array of brilliant lenses.

If I go small and mirroless why choose Nikon? What is the advantage over the much more established m4/3 with plenty more lenses, bodies to choose from and a much more capable sensor?

You can claim that Sony kept it different by delivering very small cameras with extremely capable sensors (someone said D90 sensor I think one of them has a D7k and the new one the Nex 7 has the same sensor as the SLT 77).

The Q from Pentax goes the other way with a tiny sensor but with a few very interesting choices of fairly cheap lenses(all of them suited for a very very specific kind of photographic interest) in what seems to be the smallest MILC in the market.

m4/3s is the obvious choice for those that are ready to compromise a bit on IQ to get a fair advantage in size and weight.

What is the 1 trying to do? I am really disappointed

 

[ausemmao]

Phase-detect AF looks fore and aft of the focused point, not left/right or top/bottom. At least that's how it works in DSLRs, and that's fundamental to its speed. Even when out of focus, it knows where the sharpest point is and sends the lens straight to it

Sony needed to put a translucent mirror in place of the conventional flipping mirror to do it with their SLT cameras. Not sure about this new Nikon jobbie, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.

The way it does that is to split the light coming to each AF point. It doesn't particularly matter which direction you split it in as long as you have a path that's symmetric when the image is in focus (the phase in phase detect). When the image isn't in focus, the light from the same image point hits the AF sensor at different parts - the fact that the light splits in a predictable way allows the sensor to tell the image is out of focus, how much it is out of focus and in which direction. The fact the AF sensor is in the bottom of a DSLR is orthogonal (npi) to its operation - that's because you couldn't put an AF sensor next to film, and because embedding AF in the sensor involves extra electronics, the same way the reason the mirror is there is because you couldn't leave film exposed while composing.

 

[HoppyUK]

The way it does that is to split the light coming to each AF point. It doesn't particularly matter which direction you split it in as long as you have a path that's symmetric when the image is in focus (the phase in phase detect). When the image isn't in focus, the light from the same image point hits the AF sensor at different parts - the fact that the light splits in a predictable way allows the sensor to tell the image is out of focus, how much it is out of focus and in which direction. The fact the AF sensor is in the bottom of a DSLR is orthogonal (npi) to its operation - that's because you couldn't put an AF sensor next to film, and because embedding AF in the sensor involves extra electronics, the same way the reason the mirror is there is because you couldn't leave film exposed while composing.

Sure, but how does Nikon get the out-of-phase data just from the flat sensor, so it can make it in-phase? It needs some other device.

Nikon has done something different. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Edit: if they've managed to embed that into the sensor in some way, that's mighty clever and could have major implications for more enthusiast orientated cameras

 

[desantnik]

I dunno why the Nikon owners are moaning - what difference does it make to you?

Canon make photocopiers but just because I own one of their cameras doesn't mean I have to buy every POS they manufacture, same with Nikon.

Thom Hogan explained ages ago why Nikon were about to launch this - basically they see other people selling thousands of units of these, so they want to try and capture some of that action. Simples.

Is it as good as other EVIL things? No idea, don't care much either.

 

[ausemmao]

Sure, but how does Nikon get the out-of-phase data just from the flat sensor, so it can make it in-phase? It needs some other device.

Nikon has done something different. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

What I'm trying to say is that they don't have to do anything spectacularly different. Provided they can use a microlens array to split light coming towards the sensor and compare the results they can detect phase. The sensor being flat has nothing to do with it.

 

[markf]

i still like the fuji x100, i like the retro look

 

[markf]

jessops have prices, the 1j1 with 10-30mm lens is £549
and the 1v1 with 10-30mm lens is £849

 

[HoppyUK]

What I'm trying to say is that they don't have to do anything spectacularly different. Provided they can use a microlens array to split light coming towards the sensor and compare the results they can detect phase. The sensor being flat has nothing to do with it.

You might be right!

Just found this pdf that has a bit of technical info towards the end. It talks about (very superficially) about a hybrid phase/contrast detect system on/in the sensor.

http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/acil/pdf/Nikon1_Lineup.pdf

 

[boliston]

This actually looks like it has potential.

The things that appeal to me are the fact that they have a 10mm pancake lens which will act like a 27mm lens on a 2.7x crop sensor. They do 3 zooms as well but as soon as you put one of these on it will no longer be compact. OK I have never liked zooms so perhaps I'm biased.

I also like the fact that it will use the same Nikon software that I currently use (View NX2/Capture NX2) so there is no extra workflow to learn.

People seem to dismiss the 2.7x crop, but forget that this will give much greater DOF than 2x & 1.5x crop mirrorless systems which can be a bonus in low light situations.

It will be interesting to see how it copes with manual/zone/hyperfocal focussing.

 

[Strappy]

Try again Nikon if you want to get people who are serious about shooting.

I think Yv hit the nail on the head regarding the target demographic when she said this earlier.

/GirlyMomentAlert

OMG!! I DON'T CARE how capable it is, I just WANT one NOW!! It is SOOOOO CUTE!!

/GirlyMomentAlert/Off

Instead of thinking of it as a DSLR replacement, think of it as a premium mirrorless compact trading on Nikon's name and reputation. You ask me, it's a pretty smart marketing move; aim for the top and aspirational end of a market that's getting saturated lower down.

 

[garry71]

a photo that moves and captures the story of a moment as never before - a living picture.

Reading that made me want to puke.

 

[Rod.F]

Just my 2p.

Sony have got the right idea with the large sensor, but it limits their ability to make the lenses small. Right now you can make the body as small as you want, but as soon as you attach one of the slow kit lenses, you're looking at a camera that's not *that* compact.

I think Olympus and Panasonic have got this all very right now, the new PEN has incredible auto focus and the new primes are looking really good, especially the 12mm f2.0, which despite carrying a hefty price tag, is a true Zuiko product, i.e. build quality that's superb for a modern digital product, and great performance to match.

So, where does this new Nikon fit in? Well, it doesn't. The sensor is just too small and you may as well buy a high quality superzoom or compact. It's funny though, despite how small the sensor is, the lenses still look big? If they're trying to go compact, they go compact, don't come out with a product that has awful ergonomics (you need to go in to a sub menu to change shooting mode...) and a small sensor, but with big lenses.

Try again Nikon if you want to get people who are serious about shooting.

But sadly you are speaking a completely alien language to the target audience for these cameras, it would be akin to complaining that The Teletubbies lacks artistic integrity or that there is minimal character development. These cameras aren't for those who are "serious about shooting", but those who want to take prettier pictures than their current point n shoot does, and the language and features represent this to the point that even focal lengths have been simplified to multiples of 10. These Nikons fit in because they meet the market of people coming from point n shoots, where as the competition have an eye on those coming from DSLRs. To me it makes sense because I suspect that the serious shooters do not make up the largest audience - even Panasonic have been progressively dumbing down of their GF range to meet the audience coming from point n shoots.

 

[dd1989]

But sadly you are speaking a completely alien language to the target audience for these cameras, it would be akin to complaining that The Teletubbies lacks artistic integrity or that there is minimal character development. These cameras aren't for those who are "serious about shooting", but those who want to take prettier pictures than their current point n shoot does, and the language and features represent this to the point that even focal lengths have been simplified to multiples of 10. These Nikons fit in because they meet the market of people coming from point n shoots, where as the competition have an eye on those coming from DSLRs. To me it makes sense because I suspect that the serious shooters do not make up the largest audience - even Panasonic have been progressively dumbing down of their GF range to meet the audience coming from point n shoots.

That's not totally true though, and the development from the G1 through to the GH2 and G3 has shown that Panasonic have taken their customers seriously, for example much, much better high ISO performance than the model that came before.

 

[Rod.F]

I didn't mean that the range hadn't been improving in performance, I just meant that it's easier to recommend the GF3 over the GF1 to a friend who has very little interest in being a photographer because each iteration seems to have been geared closer and closer towards competiting against high end point n shoots.

 

[gingerjon]

I dunno why the Nikon owners are moaning - what difference does it make to you?

Canon make photocopiers but just because I own one of their cameras doesn't mean I have to buy every POS they manufacture, same with Nikon.

Quite.

It's another line. If it's going to detract from anything it'll be the top of the range compacts that Nikon aren't doing so well in (I believe) as opposed to the entry/enthusiast DSLRs.

 

[POAH]

you have to remember that wither or not you are interested in one of these cameras if your a fanboy they have to be better than everything else lol

I personally like the set up if the lenses can be made small enough. if the lenses are not significantlly smaller than say the GF3 then you have to ask why bother.

I'd buy one for my wife as it will give higher quality images than a compact.

 

[cambsno]

But sadly you are speaking a completely alien language to the target audience for these cameras, it would be akin to complaining that The Teletubbies lacks artistic integrity or that there is minimal character development. These cameras aren't for those who are "serious about shooting", but those who want to take prettier pictures than their current point n shoot does, and the language and features represent this to the point that even focal lengths have been simplified to multiples of 10. These Nikons fit in because they meet the market of people coming from point n shoots, where as the competition have an eye on those coming from DSLRs. To me it makes sense because I suspect that the serious shooters do not make up the largest audience - even Panasonic have been progressively dumbing down of their GF range to meet the audience coming from point n shoots.

Disagree with that - £850 for the v1? Hardly going to be someone wanting a better p&s. For that money you can buy an S95 for when you need small, and a D3100 kit, and probably have a bit of change too. I think the Sony and Panasonic 4/3s are muich cheaper and to Joe Public the same thing so why buy Nikon? I can also seen few serious togs wanting this either.

I guess, the D700 and D3 are both great cameras so the argument is why rush to change them, but I really believe there is a big demand for a D7000 type camera in a D300 type body. That said, Nikon look at the world market, and I think in the far east the 4/3 are selling well so makes sense I guess.

 

[maninsuitcase]

I think the Sony and Panasonic 4/3s are muich cheaper and to Joe Public the same thing so why buy Nikon?

A quick Google on the cost of the new Sonys shows NEX5n to be similar to the J1 and the NEX7 to be a lot more than a V1. This was based on the 10-30/18-55 kits.

Not looked at the Pannys however.

 

[Rod.F]

Disagree with that - £850 for the v1? Hardly going to be someone wanting a better p&s. For that money you can buy an S95 for when you need small, and a D3100 kit, and probably have a bit of change too. I think the Sony and Panasonic 4/3s are muich cheaper and to Joe Public the same thing so why buy Nikon? I can also seen few serious togs wanting this either.

The price is far from great but you need to be fair, the Canon S100 is £440 and Nikon I'd think would hope to advertise the J1 as the direct step up and not the v1. The price difference is just over £100 if you were to preorder either of them from Jesssops, real world prices might be different. That said, it's the S100 I'm more interested in - the Nikons are more geared towards people that don't know what "tog" means, let alone that there can be "serious togs".

 

[gunnerbolt]

Re http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryuUpCWnO0w about 3:30 in to the video does the rep say you can shoot at 60fps for 30 frames? i.e half a second? i'm kind of missing the point in this feature if that is the case?