Pigment or Dye?

Dale.

Dale.

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Dale.
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Easy one this for those of you in the know.

My Epson R1400 has given up the ghost, it's 6 colours and only printing on 2 now. It's an ancient machine by printer standards. I'm yet to get a decent mono print out of it too, as you can't select only black and there's always a blue or green cast on B+W images. It has printed some lovely colour images though, in fairness to it.

All things considered, it's time to stop flogging a dead horse and get a new one. I've narrowed it down to 3, the Canon 100S, which is dye based ink, for another £150, you get the 10s, which is pigment ink, or the other is potentially the Epson P600, although given my mono experience with my Epson, I'm reluctant to go Epson again, although I'm pressuming a higher end Epson than my 1400 will be able to print true B+W.

Anyway, as title, pros and cons of pigment versus dye please.

ta much.
 
The Epson P600 is a much more rounded beast than the 1400 (or my equally ageing 2000) ... the "issue" is no separate black ink channel (my 2000 does fwiw) - in practise if you print mono, colour mono, colour then you will use a lot of black ink, if you batch them then less so. The upside is the paper handling on it is batter or if you prefer more flexible than the Canon's in as much it has a roll option and less issues with huge borders on fine art media. he P600 (and he P800) no longer suffer with the blocked head syndrome that can affect many pigment Epson printers.

As for which one, I'd always go for a pigment based printer, in my view the prints have far more finesse about them than dye based. Dye "tends" to over saturate colours which some folk prefer. I don't worry too much about longevity or fading with either though pigment will tend to last longer on both counts. Truth is, as long as the printer meets your paper handling requirements you will be delighted with either the Canon 10s or the Epson P600. Both will produce superb colour and mono prints.
 
Generally Dye inks give a more 'vibrant' result than pigment, dye inks are absorbed into the paper whilst pigment bonds to the surface. Pigment inks are considered to be more lightfast and more resilient to UV. However the differences between the two are becoming more blurred with the more modern systems.
IMO it comes down mainly to the surfaces you will be printing on, if you intend to print more on 'Fine Art' type papers then Pigment inks can be preferable, if you intend printing on more traditional mediums such as Glossy, Lustre etc then the dye ink option may be better for you.

As far as the printers are concerned I use Canon, a Pro 100s for up to 13 x 19 inches on more traditional media and a Pro 1...

I understand though that Epson include a special B + W mode and app these days that I have heard good things about.
 
If selling for display, it has to be pigment for longevity - you owe it to your customers. For album use - either.
 
Canon pretty much can't print borderless on any 3rd party / fine art papers and becomes pretty much A4+ printer.

I'd actually look for an A2 or A1 printer as I'm sure A3 is not the largest you may want to print.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Canon pretty much can't print borderless on any 3rd party / fine art papers and becomes pretty much A4+ printer.

I'd actually look for an A2 or A1 printer as I'm sure A3 is not the largest you may want to print.
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True that. I thought A3+ would be big enough, but I'd love to print A2. Problem is, I don't have the space for the footprint of an A2 printer anyway ;(

I have the Epson SC-P600 by the way and I love it. I've only printed a few B+W and they are true B+W with zero colour casts.
 
Thank you for the comments. (y)

Please forgive my naivety, but are we saying the Canons can't print full A3 without a border?

ta.
 
Epson sc-p600 or 800 pigment is really a must if you have customers
Abw is absolutely brilliant for b&w... printed loads. Check the footprint of the sc-p800 it really is quite compact
 
Thanks for the comments.

Things didn't quite go to plan:confused:. Wifey brought home a printer yesterday, she's good like that, as I mentioned I was on the lookout for an A3 printer.

I'm yet to try it, it's an Epson XP900 and whilst not a pro printer, I will give it a go, I have to.

I think it would be divorce territiory if I went out and bought one anytime within the next year, but I am counting down. :LOL:
 
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Dale. said:
Thanks for the comments.

Things didn't quite go to plan:confused:. Wifey brought home a printer yesterday, she's good like that, as I mentioned I was on the lookout for an A3 printer.

I'm yet to try it, it's an Epson XP900 and whilst not a pro printer, I will give it a go, I have to.

I think it would be divorce territiory if I went out and bought one anytime within the next year, but I am counting down. :LOL:
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Haha, she saw the price of the pro ones and thought she’d better get one quick. :hug:
 
ecoleman said:
Haha, she saw the price of the pro ones and thought she’d better get one quick. :hug:
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That's a point. ;)

I've done 2 prints, one colour, one mono and they ain't too shabby at all. The mono is much more convincing than I ever got off the 1400.
 
ecoleman said:
I believe that is the case for fine art papers.
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Even using A3+ papers? Not tried any fine art paper but the Pro 100 will print edge to edge A3+ using Ilford Galerie and Canon's own papers.
 
Nod said:
Even using A3+ papers? Not tried any fine art paper but the Pro 100 will print edge to edge A3+ using Ilford Galerie and Canon's own papers.
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I really don't know. This is just what I've heard.
I do know that on the Epson, fine art papers are fed from the front manually and do not feed from the auto sheet feeder due to the thickness of the paper. This may have something to do with it.
 
Nod said:
Even using A3+ papers? Not tried any fine art paper but the Pro 100 will print edge to edge A3+ using Ilford Galerie and Canon's own papers.
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Canon do impose limits on some Fine Art papers, but there are ways to circumvent this.

ecoleman said:
I really don't know. This is just what I've heard.
I do know that on the Epson, fine art papers are fed from the front manually and do not feed from the auto sheet feeder due to the thickness of the paper. This may have something to do with it.
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That is correct, I believe it is to do with Canon being cautious with the take up of certain media via the manual feed rollers.

You can select a similar paper type that does not have the restriction, however you cannot circumvent the restriction on the papers maximum length...
 
I know I'm late to the party but .........

The fundamental difference between dye and pigment inks are that dye is superior for glossy and especially high gloss prints. Pigment inks even with spray on coatings and chroma optimiser are not as good at gloss. That being said, I cannot remember the last time I printed a gloss print? 85% of my prints are on lustre or similar paper with 15% on textured or matt paper on which I prefer pigment ink. Since I have both an A3+ dye printer and an A2 pigment printer I can swop if I wish.

As regards the limitations on fine art paper of Canons. This is a fact and widely criticised though Canon have made 'some' changes in certain printers firmware to partially address this. This (minor to me) shortcoming of Canon printers is superior (in my opinion) to the ink cartridge swop of many Epsons. Both companies make fine printers.

On the Epson xp900, this printer gets good reports and I am sure you will be pleased with it. It is not top notch but pretty good nonetheless.
 
Dale. said:
Thanks for the comments.

Things didn't quite go to plan:confused:. Wifey brought home a printer yesterday, she's good like that, as I mentioned I was on the lookout for an A3 printer.

I'm yet to try it, it's an Epson XP900 and whilst not a pro printer, I will give it a go, I have to.

I think it would be divorce territiory if I went out and bought one anytime within the next year, but I am counting down. :LOL:
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My wife has the XP900 for her card making business and it has been extremely reliable but a bit thirsty. With a full set of genuine Epson cartridges costing £89 from cartidgesave.co.uk I wish she didn't make so many :)

We tried compatible inks in it but they come out with the colours lacking punch - as they do with my Stylus Photo 1400 6-ink printer.
 
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Bristolian said:
My wife has the XP900 for her card making business and it has been extremely reliable but a bit thirsty. With a full set of genuine Epson cartridges costing £89 from cartidgesave.co.uk I wish she didn't make so many :)

We tried compatible inks in it but they come out with the colours lacking punch - as they do with my Stylus Photo 1400 6-ink printer.
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It makes sense to look at the bulk ink systems and the printers supported by the likes of Fotospeed and Permajet next time you purchase. in the long run it will work out cheaper. Also the better (more expensive) printers handle thicker and textured paper/card more readily and this might suit? Using third party ink is a route to disaster though it does depend on the third party? Usually if anyone warns against third party ink usage it results in a raft of gumbies stating they have used it for 20 years without issues. A bit like smoking 30 a day I suppose?
 
@ TheSeeingEye - I had a continuous ink system for my previous printer and used Permajet inks with good results. I purchased re-fillable cartridges from Fotospeed for my current Stylus Photo 1400 (they don't have a continuous system for this printer) but have been very disappointed with the results despite having them create profiles for me and using their inks and papers.

My wife's experience of third patry inks has not been good and she is a bit of a perfectionist so we will continue to increase the coffers of Messrs Epson :)
 
Bristolian said:
@ TheSeeingEye - I had a continuous ink system for my previous printer and used Permajet inks with good results. I purchased re-fillable cartridges from Fotospeed for my current Stylus Photo 1400 (they don't have a continuous system for this printer) but have been very disappointed with the results despite having them create profiles for me and using their inks and papers.

My wife's experience of third patry inks has not been good and she is a bit of a perfectionist so we will continue to increase the coffers of Messrs Epson :)
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Give Marrutt a try. I use their refillable from my P600. I can’t see any difference between them and Epson inks.
 
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I use the P800 and it has a dedicated/special mode for black and white prints. I believe the P600 is the same.

I've never had a colour cast, and even if you did, there is a part of the driver for dealing with that to eliminate that.
 
Dale. said:
There is a CIS available for it though, I have one on mine, not that I use that printer anymore.
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There certainly used to be one available but I couldn't find anyone that actually had one when I was looking. The refillable cartridges are simple enough to handle and I seldom get ink on my hands when doing it.
 
ecoleman said:
Give Marrutt a try. I use their refillable from my P600. I can’t see any difference between them and Epson inks.
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Cheers for the heads up ... I will certainly look into that.

Epson inks are more expensive than gold :(
 
I use the Permajet refillable cartridges, and their paper, on my P800. Works fine for me, no problems with it or the quality.
 
On the subject of colour casts in monochrome prints

Certainly used the 'dedicated' mode (both Canon and Epson have these) for printing the monochrome print. Do not colour manage as the printers are better at producing monochrome prints via their specialized modes.

Do not assess your printed image too quickly as they can have a colour cast (usually magenta) while still not fully dry though I had a Canon 9000 pro that produced green shadows until I discovered the specialized B & W mode and left it to the printer with near perfect results.

@ Bristolian - Odd you had poor results as I know two photographic judges that swear by Fotospeed inks however I have yet to see their work. I also sent off a print to get a profile from Fotospeed but was using Canon inks. I could never get a decent print from that profile? I always felt they did not bother to do so and sent me some random profile? Good to hear you had good results from Permajet though.
 
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