Reclaiming VAT

[Flash In The Pan]

Graham are DR UK vat registered then you said you think you paid vat but couldn't remember
Regarding HDEW if they supply a vat invoice on demand, I thought any uk company has to supply a sales invoice full stop if the goods value is above 50 quid

You're confusing a sales invoice with a VAT receipt. Have you never been asked if you require a VAT receipt, as opposed to a "normal" one when you buy petrolI?

I'll give you that it was several years ago so I can't remember the exact details , however the full value was declared on the customs docket and the couriers collect duty based on that.

Speaking of which I can't help but notice you've repeatedly ignored my request to post a pic of your invoice, or even name the courier

 

[2blue4u]

Overseas firms are not required to be VAT registered in this country unless they have 'operations' in this county (see your own quote). They do not - unless it could be construed that forum advertising constitutes 'operations'.

These are HK exporters. They do the exporting. Their customers around the world do the importing. The onus is upon the importers to comply with local laws - and pay any taxes due.

Or are you suggesting that HK exporters should register for VAT in every country they export to?

 

[Rebel t3i]

I have named the courier but for the hard of hearing here it is again UPS
the declaration and shipping documentation was stuck to the bag by UPS.
I no longer have the UPS bag, UPS did not ask me for any money I may well get a bill from them within the next 30 days
So back to your UK vat registration statements Do DR have a UK vat registration number as you imported your goods from then and if you are correct they should have a UK VAT number
I am under the impression it is against the law to charge VAT if you are not vat registered correct me if I am wrong
I don't think these hong Kong companies are vat registered and don't have to be as they do not have a Uk office they sell and ship from

 

[Flash In The Pan]

:bonk::bonk::bonk: Yes, you're right - Too early in the morning for me! :bonk::bonk::bonk:

I've pondered this myself - is it up to the individual (who may not know that they have evaded this tax) to declare it unilaterally, or does it only become illegal if they refuse to pay (or more likely if they come up with a fraudulent excuse) when asked by HMRC.:shrug:

Ignorance of the law, as is pointed out regularly, is no excuse, the ambiguous wording on the Panamoz and OSD sites appears to me ( and again this is just my opinion) to be deliberately designed to give the impression that VAT and duty are being paid when in fact they are not.

 

[Zoomboxer]

Ignorance of the law, as is pointed out regularly, is no excuse, the ambiguous wording on the Panamoz and OSD sites appears to me ( and again this is just my opinion) to be deliberately designed to give the impression that VAT and duty are being paid when in fact they are not.

now 3 pages long :nuts:

In your opinion Panamoz et al are dodgy - so avoid them at all costs and get your stuff from elsewhere.

If others DO post up scans of their invoices what are you going to do with them?

I can see 2 options:

1. Report them to HMRC
2. Order stuff from Panamoz, at reduced prices, and claim the VAT back.

or is there a 3rd option?

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Overseas firms are not required to be VAT registered in this country unless they have 'operations' in this county (see your own quote). They do not - unless it could be construed that forum advertising constitutes 'operations'.

That is exactly what is meant by having an "operation" in this country, compounded by the fact they list a UK office on their website. They are trading in the UK, regardless of whether they are shipping the goods direct from HK or not.

These are HK exporters. They do the exporting. Their customers around the world do the importing. The onus is upon the importers to comply with local laws - and pay any taxes due.

Or are you suggesting that HK exporters should register for VAT in every country they export to?

According to UK law, and I've quoted the relevant legislation several times, yes they do need to be registered in each EU country they export to if they exceed the threshold

 

[Rebel t3i]

I interpreted the statements on these honk kong company sites to read that the price you pay is all you will pay, they will cover any additional charges if you are charge any upon delivery

If you are concerned that you as the importer may be breaking the law you as the importer should declare the goods to HMRC that you are importing, as the importer is liable not the supplying off shore company
Graham did you declare the goods to HMRC that you imported from DR

 

[DemiLion]

Overseas firms are not required to be VAT registered in this country unless they have 'operations' in this county (see your own quote). They do not - unless it could be construed that forum advertising constitutes 'operations'.

These are HK exporters. They do the exporting. Their customers around the world do the importing. The onus is upon the importers to comply with local laws - and pay any taxes due.

Or are you suggesting that HK exporters should register for VAT in every country they export to?

The problem is that they actually are trading as a UK company:

Due to popular demand, we are accepting direct bank transfer with our UK HSBC account (BACS). There will be a 5% discount, off on the total price. Please contact us for more information

That part alone makes them an onshore based trader.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I have named the courier but for the hard of hearing here it is again UPS
the declaration and shipping documentation was stuck to the bag by UPS.
I no longer have the UPS bag, UPS did not ask me for any money I may well get a bill from them within the next 30 days
So back to your UK vat registration statements Do DR have a UK vat registration number as you imported your goods from then and if you are correct they should have a UK VAT number
I am under the impression it is against the law to charge VAT if you are not vat registered correct me if I am wrong
I don't think these hong Kong companies are vat registered and don't have to be as they do not have a Uk office they sell and ship from

Ok UPS. I know them well, having dealt with them on numerous occasions The way they work is that you have to pay the delivery driver, in cash, the VAT/ duty due before they will hand over the goods. Once I didn't have the correct money ( the drivers don't give change) and ended up having to make a 70 mile round trip to their depot to collect the watch I had ordered from Singapore.

The fact that you were unaware of this speaks volumes...

 

[Rebel t3i]

Ok UPS. I know them well, having dealt with them on numerous occasions The way they work is that you have to pay the delivery driver, in cash, the VAT/ duty due before they will hand over the goods. Once I didn't have the correct money ( the drivers don't give change) and ended up having to make a 70 mile round trip to their depot to collect the watch I had ordered from Singapore.

The fact that you were unaware of this speaks volumes...

You are confusing me with someone else possibly or just bating
read my posts I clearly stated on more that one occasion that the shipping company are responsible for collecting the duty and vat
I even gave an example of UPS charging me for a shipment from the states

Did you declare the goods you ordered from DR to HMRC or did the courier charge you on delivery

 

[swordjo]

As a impartial person who doesn't who much about importing/VAT etc, are the people who are defending Panamoz doing so as they have made a purchase from them and are worried about "illegal" activity from them (not saying they are, just the impression I get from this thread) causing future issues with warranty claims etc, or because they are planning to make another purchase and are worried they will need to pay more?

I'm not trying to accuse anybody of this, just genuinely interested.

 

[srichards]

It's quite simple then. Buy from Panamoz and then tell HMRC you have bought these goods and they need to confirm that duty has been paid. If you get a bill send it to Panamoz as they clearly state all costs are covered and the price you pay is what is advertised on the site. This way everyone has done everything they legally have to.

It would soon then become clear what the true situation is as either you'd get a load of 'yes, they've paid' posts or 'no, I've sent them the bill' posts.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

You are confusing me with someone else possibly or just bating
read my posts I clearly stated on more that one occasion that the shipping company are responsible for collecting the duty and vat
I even gave an example of UPS charging me for a shipment from the states

You seemed to be under the impression that UPS would send you an invoice for the duty, I'm pointing out that's not how they work. The only way you could receive your camera without handing over any money is if it was under-valued or misdescribed on the documentation. There are no other ways, UPS will not release goods without receiving payment. DHL will, but UPS will most definitely not.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

As a impartial person who doesn't who much about importing/VAT etc, are the people who are defending Panamoz doing so as they have made a purchase from them and are worried about "illegal" activity from them (not saying they are, just the impression I get from this thread) causing future issues with warranty claims etc, or because they are planning to make another purchase and are worried they will need to pay more?

I'm not trying to accuse anybody of this, just genuinely interested.

All of them appear to have made at least one purchase. Draw your own conclusions from that...

 

[Zoomboxer]

All of them appear to have made at least one purchase. Draw your own conclusions from that...

... but what is your conclusion. Don't sit on the fence - just say what you want to say.

 

[Rebel t3i]

You seemed to be under the impression that UPS would send you an invoice for the duty, I'm pointing out that's not how they work. The only way you could receive your camera without handing over any money is if it was under-valued or misdescribed on the documentation. There are no other ways, UPS will not release goods without receiving payment. DHL will, but UPS will most definitely not.

That's not what I said that is what you have wrongly read into it
if you are not charged at point of delivery you can still receive a bill in the post
form the shipping agent
I know this for a fact as I have received one in the past for a correctly described item which was a sample
You seem to now be attacking people and avoiding to answer their questions to you
so here it is again
Were you charged import duty on the goods you imported from DR if not did you declare them to HMRC
it seems to me that you have infact imported goods that have not had the duty and vat
paid how ironic lol

 

[domino1999]

... but what is your conclusion. Don't sit on the fence - just say what you want to say.

Precisely! I think Graham has known the answer to his original question for some time.

 

[FourRingCircus]

Ignorance of the law, as is pointed out regularly, is no excuse.

I am well aware of this.

However, my question remains unanswered and it goes to the crux of the matter here:

Is it up to the individual (who may not know that they have evaded this tax) to declare it unilaterally, or does it only become illegal if they refuse to pay (or more likely if they come up with a fraudulent excuse) if/when asked by HMRC?

If someone with no understanding of VAT/imports just thinks that Panamoz et al are a damn good deal, how can they possibly declare it if they don't know they've done anything wrong? As far as I recall, there is nothing on a Self Assessment form which asks if you have received goods from abroad without VAT being paid, so how else can you sensibly declare it?

At which point does it become illegal? Lack of declaration or lack of payment when requested?

To my mind, as someone who is VAT registered (16+ years) and imports stuff for business perfectly legitimately, I can't see it as being a criminal offence to buy from HK without personally declaring it. I actually believe that there is some sort of a deal being done between the suppliers and their local couriers, or a blind eye is being turned by the HK depots of the couriers at best, because HMRC rely on the information/declarations provided by the logistics companies to then collect monies due from the importer......

To give a different example, I just received a parcel from the States today along with a bill for £40 of VAT. It's not an issue, as I can claim back the VAT, but the courier is not capable of delivering it without receiving the payment. I know UPS, FedEx and DHL are also very strict about this sort of thing and I have business accounts with two of these where I export (and must declare values etc) to them before they take the goods away. DHL can be an exception where they will leave the goods with you along with a bill to be paid later, but this usually applies only if you are an account holder.

My own feeling here is that 'declaring it' once it has been delivered is tantamount to walking into a police station and openly telling them that you were doing 100mph on the motorway earlier that day and then asking them to lock you in a cell.

I firmly believe that the onus is on the revenue collectors here and that the importer is not acting illegally. I've had goods from Panamoz and would have paid a bill to get the goods if requested by UPS on the doorstep. That's how it works. I was not with-holding anything, but at the same time, I genuinely know of no mechanism to relive myself of cash (and guilt?) without getting silly about it and probably making a small garden bird of myself in the process.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

That's not what I said that is what you have wrongly read into it
if you are not charged at point of delivery you can still receive a bill in the post
form the shipping agent
I know this for a fact as I have received one in the past for a correctly described item which was a sample
You seem to now be attacking people and avoiding to answer their questions to you
so here it is again
where you charged import duty on the goods you imported from DR if not did you declare them to HMRC
it seems to me that you have infact imported goods that have not had the duty and vat
paid how ironic lol

Ok the DR question first, I had to go to the courier's depot ( it was a while ago but I think it was Fedex as I paid extra for the shipping) at Glasgow airport to pick up the parcel, the full purchase and shipping value was declared on the customs docket and, casting my mind back, there was a label attached which stated that the Duty had been paid.

With UPS, they will not hand over the goods until you pay the duty, if you are not presented with a bill by the driver then you won't receive one at a later date. DHL, on the other hand,will simply deliver the goods and then send you the bill.

So once again, if you received a high-value item via UPS without being asked to pay the duty before it is handed over ( the item is the property of the courier company until you do do) then it has been under or misdeclared on the customs document.

 

[Rebel t3i]

how may people would bother to read the shipping labels on their parcel they would be more interested in ripping open the package to get at the contents
If you did actually read it and discover that duty and vat may not have been paid in full would you ring HMRC and tell them you have paid them short
have you ever broken the speed limit and if you did would you go to the police station an hand yourself in lol courtesy of john that one it did make me laugh

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I am well aware of this.

However, my question remains unanswered and it goes to the crux of the matter here:

Is it up to the individual (who may not know that they have evaded this tax) to declare it unilaterally, or does it only become illegal if they refuse to pay (or more likely if they come up with a fraudulent excuse) if/when asked by HMRC?

If someone with no understanding of VAT/imports just thinks that Panamoz et al are a damn good deal, how can they possibly declare it if they don't know they've done anything wrong? As far as I recall, there is nothing on a Self Assessment form which asks if you have received goods from abroad without VAT being paid, so how else can you sensibly declare it?

That's essentially the point that was being made on the thread in OOF regarding speed limits for vans, just because you didn't know there was a different speed limit isn't a valid excuse in the eyes of the law.

At which point does it become illegal? Lack of declaration or lack of payment when requested?

Declaration

To my mind, as someone who is VAT registered (16+ years) and imports stuff for business perfectly legitimately, I can't see it as being a criminal offence to buy from HK without personally declaring it.

Technically you can 't import anything from a commercial source without declaring it. The HMRC website, however, states that where the amount of duty due is less than £9 it is ignored and I suspect this is the clause that many HK sellers use to get round the law.

I actually believe that there is some sort of a deal being done between the suppliers and their local couriers, or a blind eye is being turned by the HK depots of the couriers at best, because HMRC rely on the information/declarations provided by the logistics companies to then collect monies due from the importer......

The HK authorities couldn't care one way or the other, the "issue" is at this end.

To give a different example, I just received a parcel from the States today along with a bill for £40 of VAT. It's not an issue, as I can claim back the VAT, but the courier is not capable of delivering it without receiving the payment. I know UPS, FedEx and DHL are also very strict about this sort of thing and I have business accounts with two of these where I export (and must declare values etc) to them before they take the goods away. DHL can be an exception where they will leave the goods with you along with a bill to be paid later, but this usually applies only if you are an account holder.

My own feeling here is that 'declaring it' once it has been delivered is tantamount to walking into a police station and openly telling them that you were doing 100mph on the motorway earlier that day and then asking them to lock you in a cell.

I firmly believe that the onus is on the revenue collectors here and that the importer is not acting illegally. I've had goods from Panamoz and would have paid a bill to get the goods if requested by UPS on the doorstep. That's how it works. I was not with-holding anything, but at the same time, I genuinely know of no mechanism to relive myself of cash (and guilt?) without getting silly about it and probably making a small garden bird of myself in the process.

Agreed, you didn't pay anything because nothing was demanded of you, that doesn't really mean it was "legal" though, does it?

 

[domino1999]

My own feeling here is that 'declaring it' once it has been delivered is tantamount to walking into a police station and openly telling them that you were doing 100mph on the motorway earlier that day and then asking them to lock you in a cell.

I firmly believe that the onus is on the revenue collectors here and that the importer is not acting illegally. I've had goods from Panamoz and would have paid a bill to get the goods if requested by UPS on the doorstep. That's how it works. I was not with-holding anything, but at the same time, I genuinely know of no mechanism to relive myself of cash (and guilt?) without getting silly about it and probably making a small garden bird of myself in the process.

I like this post

 

[Rebel t3i]

That's essentially the point that was being made on the thread in OOF regarding speed limits for vans, just because you didn't know there was a different speed limit isn't a valid excuse in the eyes of the law.

But now you are a ware of it would you go into the police station and tell them that on July 14th 2010 you were traveling at 70mph in a van
I bet if you rang HMRC and said that on july 14th 2010 you bought a camera and lens from Hong Kong and now believe that the correct amount of duty and vat wasn't paid by me they'd just laugh and thankyou for your honesty and tell you not to worry
you could on the other hand work out what you should have paid them and mail them a cheque for the amount
I can get you their address if you want it lol

 

[Flash In The Pan]

how may people would bother to read the shipping labels on their parcel they would be more interested in ripping open the package to get at the contents
If you did actually read it and discover that duty and vat may not have been paid in full would you ring HMRC and tell them you have paid them short
have you ever broken the speed limit and if you did would you go to the police station an hand yourself in lol courtesy of john that one it did make me laugh

That's not really germane to the point under discussion though, is it? UPS collect duty at the doorstep, you were unaware of this, so your goods were obviously valued under the level where they would attract said duty. I'm not suggesting going and handing yourself in merely that if you don't know the mechanisms of how something works don't argue the toss with someone who does

 

[Flash In The Pan]

But now you are a ware of it would you go into the police station and tell them that on July 14th 2010 you were traveling at 70mph in a van

I wasn't and I don't own a van

 

[Rebel t3i]

I wasn't and I don't own a van

ok 85 mph in a ford focus then
I have owned and built road cars capable of speeds in excess or 185 mph not that I have done that speed on a public highway there is a pic of one in my avatar
I also own a very large transit van not sure how many speed limits I have broken as the speedo over reads massively but I haven't handed myself in ..........
yet lol

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I've checked and in the case of DR the parcel had a sticker with read "import VAT prepaid", along with their VAT prepayment authorisation number

 

[tiler65]

I wasn't and I don't own a van

Prove it..... (tee hee)

 

[Flash In The Pan]

ok 85 mph in a ford focus then

I wouldn't be seen dead in a Focus

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I wonder if it's still the same "Tina"?

Hi James I did a bit of a search and found this on another photography website: but on the other hand I went to the pricegrabber website and some people said they were ok, you just have to go with you own feelings James on this one, me personally I would be a bit wary.

Panamoz.com: Do - Not - Touch - Them!

.
<snip>


I actually ended up going personally there to drop the faulty lens and saw the guy who signs himself in the various e-mails as "Tina" from customer service: he looks more like Mike Tyson rather than Tina

 

[Rebel t3i]

I wouldn't be seen dead in a Focus

one of the better cars made
won many award for car of the year all over the world
don't tell me you have a bmw or an audi bet you'd like to be able to buy one of them new vat free and duty free lol

 

[Flash In The Pan]

one of the better cars made
won many award for car of the year all over the world
don't tell me you have a bmw or an audi bet you'd like to be able to buy one of them new vat free and duty free lol

I don't doubt for a minute they're good cars, I just could never bring myself to buy one :shrug:

 

[Rebel t3i]

 

[DemiLion]

I've checked and in the case of DR the parcel had a sticker with read "import VAT prepaid", along with their VAT prepayment authorisation number

What about a VAT invoice though? Or was that just more pretty labelling?

I'm not having a dig, but I'm fairly sure that DR are only offering self insurance against VAT being charged, rather than paying it fully on each and every item. I'd be happy to be proved wrong however.

 

[Rebel t3i]

What about a VAT invoice though? Or was that just more pretty labelling?

I'm not having a dig, but I'm fairly sure that DR are only offering self insurance against VAT being charged, rather than paying it fully on each and every item. I'd be happy to be proved wrong however.

I agree
and the fact that is said duty paid does not mean it was paid on the price you paid the supplier, it could have been duty paid on £6 which would equate to nothing on a lens, which is liable for duty
it could well have been a camera and in that case duty paid would still be zero as cameras are duty free

 

[Flash In The Pan]

What about a VAT invoice though? Or was that just more pretty labelling?

I'm not having a dig, but I'm fairly sure that DR are only offering self insurance against VAT being charged, rather than paying it fully on each and every item. I'd be happy to be proved wrong however.

There was definitely a label on the parcel and the full amount was declared on the customs docket, I can't say 100% what was on the actual invoice, I may or may not still have it. If the duty hadn't been paid then the couriers would have been legally required to collect it either as payment before handing the goods over, or via a bill in the post.

It's entirely possible that goods may slip through the RM without attracting attention, but as Fedex, UPS et al want their pound of flesh, by way if a handling charge when duty is due they won't simply hand the parcel over without collecting any monies due.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Nothing in this earth could tempt me to drive something like that

 

[Matt]

1) Panamoz did have an advertising account, but no longer do. we left the forum open but it will vanish on the last day of the month

2) We dont see any difference between any of the hong kong retailers, panamoz even changed the wording on their T&Cs after we raised questions.

3) If you honestly believe that you are buying goods with VAT being added when buying from hong kong, then you shouldn't be allowed near a computer, or to have sharp implements, or go near high places. Its your responsibility to declare goods, not ours to vet the advertisers for VAT compliance. Hong Kong has different trading agreements with the UK, we are not lawyers and wont be drawn into trying to work it allout, you're all adults.

This kind of questions is asked often, and tbh comes over as a trolling exercise. We've already had implied threats about dealing with Panamoz, and frankly its irritating.
There are, apparently, lots of UK companies who would love to advertise with us, but ive checked and cant see a queue.

So do we ditch Digital Rev and the rest? that is the can of worms that this kind of thread opens.

 

[gramps]

I have bought goods once from Panamoz, quite recently.
I received a (non-VAT) pro-forma invoice for the total value from Panamoz at 88-90 Hatton Garden, London. EC1N 8PG (from the invoice) and I paid into their bank at a UK branch of the HSBC.

If I bought from a UK company and paid for those goods into a UK bank, how do I become an importer, did the UK company not import the goods into the UK?

I buy on occasions goods/services from people/companies who are not VAT registered, their invoices do not show a VAT number for obvious reasons ... I do not question their VAT status, should I now start to demand evidence of VAT compliance?

 

[Matt]

I have bought goods once from Panamoz, quite recently.
I received a (non-VAT) pro-forma invoice for the total value from Panamoz at 88-90 Hatton Garden, London. EC1N 8PG (from the invoice) and I paid into their bank at a UK branch of the HSBC.

If I bought from a UK company and paid for those goods into a UK bank, how do I become an importer, did the UK company not import the goods into the UK?

I buy on occasions goods/services from people/companies who are not VAT registered, their invoices do not show a VAT number for obvious reasons ... I do not question their VAT status, should I now start to demand evidence of VAT compliance?

apparently yes you should.

all our correspondance with panamoz has been to an office in hong kong, never in the UK. The fact that they have a uk address is one of the reasons why we terminated the advertising agreement we had with them.