Shoot Post Processing Help

[taxi]

I’m fairly new to photographing people and finding the post processing very hard to do. Not in a technical sense, but more worried about the output from the shoot and not letting people down. I've been using models to practice and develop my skills, but absolutely dreading the editing stage of the process. I've not had any negative feedback from anyone yet, including the few shoots I've done for friends.

I'm not sure how to overcome this and having trouble pinning down the cause. This is causing serious delays in getting the editing done. Not sure if it's the time it takes to do the post processing, my newness and dreading the results, as not many keepers. Am I being unrealistic at this stage, expecting better results than I can produce at the moment?

I enjoy the actual shoot and interaction with the models/people and although finding it a little stressful, is a pleasant process.

As anyone had similar problems and how have they overcome these issues?

I've included a couple of photos from recent shoots so you have an idea of my standard.

View attachment 17565

View attachment 17566

 

[Serendipitous Sid]

For starters, are you working in reasonably constant, fairly subdued lighting on a decent monitor that's properly calibrated?

And have you tried the FM100 test?

 

[taxi]

For starters, are you working in reasonably constant, fairly subdued lighting on a decent monitor that's properly calibrated?

And have you tried the FM100 test?

Monitor is calibrated using a Sypder 4 but lighting does change quite a bit and the monitor could do with an upgrade when I have some cash, but its far from the worst in the world. Calibration is set to auto compensate for the lighting conditions.

Just tried the test and got a score of 40 :-(, which is not great, but did this on my works monitor and the colours are all over the place with it. I'll try again when I get in this evening.

 

[Serendipitous Sid]

Just tried the test and got a score of 40 :-(, which is not great, but did this on my works monitor and the colours are all over the place with it. I'll try again when I get in this evening.

When you try it at home, remember that a perfect score would be zero ...

Whatever, I'll leave it to others more capable than me of saying what's wrong with those two, because neither of us here can put a finger on it! We suspect that in the top one, for a start you've knocked out too much of the evening sun so it's tending towards blue now and in the second you're handicapped a bit in any case by the very flat lighting. It looks to me like your black point and white point are off in both of them, but TBH I'm out of practice so I'll leave it at that ...

 

[taxi]

When you try it at home, remember that a perfect score would be zero ...

Whatever, I'll leave it to others more capable than me of saying what's wrong with those two, because neither of us here can put a finger on it! We suspect that in the top one, for a start you've knocked out too much of the evening sun so it's tending towards blue now and in the second you're handicapped a bit in any case by the very flat lighting. It looks to me like your black point and white point are off in both of them, but TBH I'm out of practice so I'll leave it at that ...

Thanks for the feedback Dan.

I give the test another go and managed a score of 4, much better.

I know the 2nd image was over exposed when I took it, which might explain the white and black point but I'll need to check everything else this evening so I'm on the same monitor.

 

[Phil V]

Honest opinion - you're putting too much emphasis on the PP, they're both overworked - I won't rant I feel like a broken record. But admitting you got the exposure wrong then saying your biggest problem is PP, that's a clue your priorities are all wrong.

That said - I like both these shots and I can't see why they're not of good enough quality to sell.

 

[taxi]

Tried the test again on my monitor and scored 4 again :-( I was hoping for a slight improvement!! lol. But that test plays havoc with your vision while doing it. lol

Recalibrated monitor and seeing a slight improvement and managed to adjust screen brightness, which was way out. This may be an issue as I adjust last time and it did not reach required 120cd/m2 by the sypder, yet it was fine this evening. I think I can take it that the ambiant lighting was to bright with my last calibration. :-(

 

[taxi]

Honest opinion - you're putting too much emphasis on the PP, they're both overworked - I won't rant I feel like a broken record. But admitting you got the exposure wrong then saying your biggest problem is PP, that's a clue your priorities are all wrong.

That said - I like both these shots and I can't see why they're not of good enough quality to sell.

Phil thanks for your reply and compliments. Both were taken with models as I'm not yet confident enough to sell my work on a regular basis.

I'm a little surprised you find the 1st image over worked as all I've done to it is to straighten the horizon, levels and a sharpen. Are there any tell tale signs that you've spotting on the processing of this one? Asking as I'm tring to fine tune my process.

With hindsight, the second image is a bad example to use in this scenario, as I knew before posting the image was over exposed and may explain why the white point is out. It has been very heavily worked to get to the point its at now.

I'm working hard to get the exposure/composition/pose correct(still a fair way to go) hence the use of a light meter on the first image to get the exposure and I got the exposure wrong on the second, getting used to adjusting lights in the studio and forgot to remeter

I'm still learning the whole process and a worried by the output from the shoot rather than the overall amount of post processing which will improve as I work at it.

 

[Serendipitous Sid]

OK ... ignoring the processing, if you want to be picky there are three problemettes with the top one. One is that she doesn't have feet. You don't need to see all of both, but it would work better if you could see evidence that she has actually got two. Then there's the bullet hole. Girls with fairly deep belly buttons always need a bit of care in lighting like that. And finally why is she holding her head on? The "pushing my hair back, as you do" shot is always iffy with a girl who's got short hair, simply because it's not usually apparent to the viewer why her hand is on her head like that.

Ref the headshot, you have the bottom third of the image consisting of pin-sharp, light-coloured, heavily-textured material competing for the viewer's attention against a somewhat bored-looking face in flat lighting. If the face isn't exactly going to leap out at you because neither the expression nor the lighting make it do that, you need to eliminate or minimise distracting elements. In this case, the sweater on its own is probably enough distraction. The sock puppets just make it worse.

But - I'm only being picky because you're trying hard to get it right

HTH a bit

 

[Rich_Ellis]

Mmmmm...I'm not sure I agree entirely with what Dan's said here. It sounds to me like you are thinking so hard about the technical aspects its getting in the way of your creative juices! The more you think about metering, feet, belly buttons etc etc the harder it is to know what the hell you're doing and why you're doing it in the first place. Dan has a point about some of those things but that's where practice and experience come in. Learn after each shoot when reviewing.

My honest view, and I always get shot down for saying this, is that I have no idea what the images are trying to say. What did you want to convey with them? That the models are pretty and attractive? If you don't know why you are taking a shot and what feel you wanted, then processing becomes a nightmare. Purely because you don't know what look you're after. The clearer the idea, the easier it is.

Hope that makes some sense.

 

[Serendipitous Sid]

My honest view, and I always get shot down for saying this, is that I have no idea what the images are trying to say. What did you want to convey with them? That the models are pretty and attractive? If you don't know why you are taking a shot and what feel you wanted, then processing becomes a nightmare. Purely because you don't know what look you're after. The clearer the idea, the easier it is.

I can't for the life of me imagine why you might get shot down for saying something which is a fundamental truth about photography.

 

[Rich_Ellis]

I can't for the life of me imagine why you might get shot down for saying something which is a fundamental truth about photography.

Oh trust me, I have been many times!

 

[taxi]

OK ... ignoring the processing, if you want to be picky there are three problemettes with the top one. One is that she doesn't have feet. You don't need to see all of both, but it would work better if you could see evidence that she has actually got two. Then there's the bullet hole. Girls with fairly deep belly buttons always need a bit of care in lighting like that. And finally why is she holding her head on? The "pushing my hair back, as you do" shot is always iffy with a girl who's got short hair, simply because it's not usually apparent to the viewer why her hand is on her head like that.

Ref the headshot, you have the bottom third of the image consisting of pin-sharp, light-coloured, heavily-textured material competing for the viewer's attention against a somewhat bored-looking face in flat lighting. If the face isn't exactly going to leap out at you because neither the expression nor the lighting make it do that, you need to eliminate or minimise distracting elements. In this case, the sweater on its own is probably enough distraction. The sock puppets just make it worse.

But - I'm only being picky because you're trying hard to get it right

HTH a bit

Thanks for the feedback on the images Dan, it all helps as still learning the process of what works and what doesn't. Have you any tips for getting more expression into the models face? I was talking to her through out the studio sesision and seemed to be a good session.

 

[taxi]

Mmmmm...I'm not sure I agree entirely with what Dan's said here. It sounds to me like you are thinking so hard about the technical aspects its getting in the way of your creative juices! The more you think about metering, feet, belly buttons etc etc the harder it is to know what the hell you're doing and why you're doing it in the first place. Dan has a point about some of those things but that's where practice and experience come in. Learn after each shoot when reviewing.

My honest view, and I always get shot down for saying this, is that I have no idea what the images are trying to say. What did you want to convey with them? That the models are pretty and attractive? If you don't know why you are taking a shot and what feel you wanted, then processing becomes a nightmare. Purely because you don't know what look you're after. The clearer the idea, the easier it is.

Hope that makes some sense.

Rich, you make a good point about getting caught up in the the process of getting the exposure, pose correct. Maybe its my newness to the whole process, which still has me a little on edge. I expect this will be overcome as I get more experience and will be looking to become more creative with experience.

The 2nd shot was the earlier shoot and I think my 3rd studio session and was just happy to get some good photo's of her. Weather I achieved this, will always be open to debate!!

The 1st shot was just to get some good photo's of the Alex on the beach.

Did I have an idea of what I wanted from the shoots. More so from the shoot with 1st photo than of 2nd photo.

What I'm trying to do is get good photographs of the model as you would for someone working into a studio or doing an outdoor shoot, coming along as they would normally dress. The idea being to work with what a client would turn up wearing to a session. It doesn't matter what guidance you give some prior to a shoot there is always going to be someone who ignores this and I want to be able to work with ease to these situations.

Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way and should be directing the models in what they're wearing. Maybe I'm expecting to much from the position I'm in, having only done half a dozen shoots. I'm not 100 sure.

 

[Serendipitous Sid]

Have you any tips for getting more expression into the models face?

For a headshot with an amateur model, I tended to fall back on getting everything set up for the shot I wanted then saying "OK ... keep looking right inside the camera ..." at which point I'd pause for a couple of seconds then say "Give me three words that describe you" and start taking pictures. That very rarely failed to result in some very usable expressions.

But hey, my thing was brides and weddings so I'm no expert. One thing that helped me greatly though years ago was working with a local model and casting agency doing quickie cheapo headshots (this was on b/w film, btw). I rocked up to my studio (the stairwell of the shopping centre carpark in the middle of town) and at 15-minute intervals, a wannabe model or actor turned up. They were anything from kids to well into their seventies, male, female and not sure, and I had less than 15 minutes to knock out a set of 5 useable 10" x 8" prints of each one in return for their £20. This sort of thing ...

If you could somehow organise yourself a few assorted folks who were up for a free picture or two wearing whatever they wanted, and spend no more than 15 minutes from first meeting on each, I think you'd find that it would sharpen up your act no end

... still learning the process of what works and what doesn't ...

It never stops. I was still learning 50 years after I took my first picture ...

 

[taxi]

Dan, that's some Lovely portraits and great tips on getting expressions, I'll try them out at my next session.

That's a lot of pressure to get 5 good photo's with the models and it's not the first time I've heard people say about doing bulk shoots helps you learn very quickly how to handle shoots/get good results under pressure.

If you could somehow organise yourself a few assorted folks who were up for a free picture or two wearing whatever they wanted, and spend no more than 15 minutes from first meeting on each, I think you'd find that it would sharpen up your act no end

That sounds like a good plan, I have access to a studio, so this can be done cheaply(mates rates on the studio, so to speak) and as long as you're not messing around with the lighting is more than possible.

Photography is like life and you never do stop learning.

 

[Rich_Ellis]

Rich, you make a good point about getting caught up in the the process of getting the exposure, pose correct. Maybe its my newness to the whole process, which still has me a little on edge. I expect this will be overcome as I get more experience and will be looking to become more creative with experience.

The 2nd shot was the earlier shoot and I think my 3rd studio session and was just happy to get some good photo's of her. Weather I achieved this, will always be open to debate!!

The 1st shot was just to get some good photo's of the Alex on the beach.

Did I have an idea of what I wanted from the shoots. More so from the shoot with 1st photo than of 2nd photo.

What I'm trying to do is get good photographs of the model as you would for someone working into a studio or doing an outdoor shoot, coming along as they would normally dress. The idea being to work with what a client would turn up wearing to a session. It doesn't matter what guidance you give some prior to a shoot there is always going to be someone who ignores this and I want to be able to work with ease to these situations.

Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way and should be directing the models in what they're wearing. Maybe I'm expecting to much from the position I'm in, having only done half a dozen shoots. I'm not 100 sure.

Hi Gerald, I guess my point is that going with a model to a location (beach or anywhere) to try to get 'some good photo's' isn't really a plan. I find it best that i have at least one image in my head (style/look etc) which then leads you to clothing/location. Whilst there of course, you can try all sorts of different things. If you are doing portrait shoots, speak to the model/s beforehand and find out what their personalities are like. Ask them for ideas, what they like etc etc. Processing then comes much easier.

Rich

 

[Eatthemtrifles]

For a headshot with an amateur model, I tended to fall back on getting everything set up for the shot I wanted then saying "OK ... keep looking right inside the camera ..." at which point I'd pause for a couple of seconds then say "Give me three words that describe you" and start taking pictures. That very rarely failed to result in some very usable expressions.

But hey, my thing was brides and weddings so I'm no expert. One thing that helped me greatly though years ago was working with a local model and casting agency doing quickie cheapo headshots (this was on b/w film, btw). I rocked up to my studio (the stairwell of the shopping centre carpark in the middle of town) and at 15-minute intervals, a wannabe model or actor turned up. They were anything from kids to well into their seventies, male, female and not sure, and I had less than 15 minutes to knock out a set of 5 useable 10" x 8" prints of each one in return for their £20. This sort of thing ...

If you could somehow organise yourself a few assorted folks who were up for a free picture or two wearing whatever they wanted, and spend no more than 15 minutes from first meeting on each, I think you'd find that it would sharpen up your act no end



It never stops. I was still learning 50 years after I took my first picture ...

Blimey!! 50 years! I won't be here then. I'd better get a move on !!

 

[manda]

I find this a really interesting discussion.

First, your landscape images on flickr are wonderful and you seriously understand your craft.

I've had the same problems and the issues stem from the very things that make you 'good' - creativity, integrity and professionalism.

If you can apply your landscape knowledge and business sense to your portraits, it starts to fall into place. I've done TFPs for over 5 years and am only just getting there.

1. Not letting people down - this is a real credit to your approach. So many people are 'greedy' and want to 'get the shot' to boost their own website. Models will love your sincerity that you want to work hard to create images that will benefit their portfolio. Explain this to them, "Even though I'm only just starting out, I really want to create great images for you. Is there any thing specific you need for your portfolio? I aim to create 1 or 2 killer images for you, forgive me if the rest are pants!".

2. Editing - we all suffer the same issue. The sessions are fun, the editing eats into our family time. Portrait editing is also a completely different beast from landscapes. Again, I've only just learnt to control myself with this issue. Explaining your approach with the model is half the battle. In emails state how long your turn around time is, during the session show them the bloopers and laugh saying don't worry those one's where you are gurning will be deleted, at the end of the session restate your process. "I'll upload your photos onto the computer as soon as I get home. I want you to enjoy sharing your images straight away. I take my time to craft each image. This will take an hour for each photos. Photography is important to me and I will only release images that meet my standards and reflect my style". Communicating this will help you feel on control, boost the model's confidence because you care and sets expectations so the worry of disappointing others is removed.

There's no short cut to the editing - find a workflow that works and then stick to it.

3. Dealing with models - yes, guide them what to wear. Although it is noble to want to deal with any situation. You first have to master your craft. Your confidence will be high if they are dressed appropriately, you'll be able to place them in the correct location in the environment which in turn means your processing will be easier. Knowing everything is in place will lead to excitement and confidence during the session producing better expressions.

Slowing down, using the light meter, aiming to create really considered images and chatting through out the session will put you on the path to success.

Cheers Mandy

 

[taxi]

Hi Gerald, I guess my point is that going with a model to a location (beach or anywhere) to try to get 'some good photo's' isn't really a plan. I find it best that i have at least one image in my head (style/look etc) which then leads you to clothing/location. Whilst there of course, you can try all sorts of different things. If you are doing portrait shoots, speak to the model/s beforehand and find out what their personalities are like. Ask them for ideas, what they like etc etc. Processing then comes much easier.

Rich

Sorry for the delay in reply, been under the weather for the last few days.

You bring up an interesting point about what I'm doing during the shoot and a "shot list" might be a way around this until I understand the process in more detail.

I've been asking the model's for ideas prior to the shoot, but they seem to be happy to go along with what I want. I need to find some experienced models who are willing to work with me and bring more input to the shoot.

 

[taxi]

I find this a really interesting discussion.

First, your landscape images on flickr are wonderful and you seriously understand your craft.

Mandy

1. Not letting people down - this is a real credit to your approach. So many people are 'greedy' and want to 'get the shot' to boost their own website. Models will love your sincerity that you want to work hard to create images that will benefit their portfolio. Explain this to them, "Even though I'm only just starting out, I really want to create great images for you. Is there any thing specific you need for your portfolio? I aim to create 1 or 2 killer images for you, forgive me if the rest are pants!".

2. Editing - we all suffer the same issue. The sessions are fun, the editing eats into our family time. Portrait editing is also a completely different beast from landscapes. Again, I've only just learnt to control myself with this issue. Explaining your approach with the model is half the battle. In emails state how long your turn around time is, during the session show them the bloopers and laugh saying don't worry those one's where you are gurning will be deleted, at the end of the session restate your process. "I'll upload your photos onto the computer as soon as I get home. I want you to enjoy sharing your images straight away. I take my time to craft each image. This will take an hour for each photos. Photography is important to me and I will only release images that meet my standards and reflect my style". Communicating this will help you feel on control, boost the model's confidence because you care and sets expectations so the worry of disappointing others is removed.

There's no short cut to the editing - find a workflow that works and then stick to it.

3. Dealing with models - yes, guide them what to wear. Although it is noble to want to deal with any situation. You first have to master your craft. Your confidence will be high if they are dressed appropriately, you'll be able to place them in the correct location in the environment which in turn means your processing will be easier. Knowing everything is in place will lead to excitement and confidence during the session producing better expressions.

Slowing down, using the light meter, aiming to create really considered images and chatting through out the session will put you on the path to success.

Cheers Mandy

I like your approach in point 1 and spending the time to create a few images will be a better approach and better communications with the models is going to help that. It is easy to go out and take a lot of photographs and hope for the best and this is what I'm desperately trying to avoid.

Editing is the big downside of digital photography over film. Wouldn't it be so nice if you could drop the memory card off at the local chemist and they came back fully edited!! It's not that I even mind sitting in front of a computer doing the editing, its what I give the model that worries me. I never have this issue when editing landscape/sports photographs. Hopefully the above tips from yourself and the others will help out.

I have a fairly good work flow, importing into Lightroom and any big edits done in Photoshop. I'm still using Lightroom 2, so maybe an upgrade might be in order to 5 as I'm hearing great things about it and would reduce the amount of time loading images into photoshop for editing and not to mention the disk space for the large tif files.

 

[taxi]

The theme through out the replies has been to slow down, better planning and work more on one image than what I've been trying to do. The tips provided will be of great use!!

Looks like I've been trying to run before I can walk and needed my expectations to be reset to a more realistic level.