The Inglorious Twelfth

When the owners stop looking after the heather moorlands spending time and thousands of pounds doing so.
 
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I liked the picture but not so happy with the sentiment.

As has been mentioned above, this species is just one of several that actually rely on their major predator (humans) to keep their environment favourable. The ecology of any environment is the sum total of all the species that use that space. Whether grouse would survive, were humans to stop interfering in that area, seems problematic.
 
medwaygreen said:
When the owners stop looking after the heather moorlands spending time and thousands of pounds doing so.
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...they could start by saving ££ by eliminating 'predator / pest control'!!
4wd said:
There wouldn't be any grouse, any moor or a lot of other specialised birds that can only live there after a couple of decades.
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They seemed to survive manage before the intensive 'management' of today! Agree that the numbers of grouse may not be as high but we could have a balanced ecosystem that would include their natural predators!
AndrewFlannigan said:
I liked the picture but not so happy with the sentiment.

As has been mentioned above, this species is just one of several that actually rely on their major predator (humans) to keep their environment favourable. The ecology of any environment is the sum total of all the species that use that space. Whether grouse would survive, were humans to stop interfering in that area, seems problematic.
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Sorry that you do not like the sentiment but I will not apologise for calling out a tiny minority of people who act above the law and eliminate anything else that they deem (rightly or wrongly) will negatively impact 'their birds'. It is well documented about the number of 'tagged' raptors that 'disappear mysteriously' on managed shooting estates. What about all the other wildlife (corvids, weasels, stoats, foxes, hares etc) that get massacred?
Near us we have some prime moorland habitat (Lammermuir Hills) which are totally devoid of any raptors. I regularly drive around this area and teh lack of raptors and corvids is absolutely astonishing!
As mentioned above, the intense management does probably increase grouse numbers but at what cost of other species - let a natural harmony occur and only step in in cases a species is in trouble. I have not heard of moorland being totally dependent upon human intervention, and would be interested to find out more if this is true.
#mods - sorry this should have been posted in the 'Talk Nature' forum !
 
nc_killie said:
#mods - sorry this should have been posted in the 'Talk Nature' forum !
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I can move it there if you'd prefer? I think it's a lovely image though and sits just as well in 'Photos'.

It's a shame the thread has taken a twist, to all concerned, let's keep it pleasant. (y)
 
If those that shot grouse ate them, I’d have no problem (well less of a problem) with the ‘grouse shooting’ issue. However from what I was told by someone in the highlands wildlife movement who’s opinion I trust; most grouse that are shot simply go to waste.

As for the photo, I‘ve never managed to get close enough to achieve anything like that. So we’ll done.
 
We. have open hilltop grassland here in Wiltshire, with a lot of Pheasant & Partridge, obviously bred for "sport". However, we also have loads of corvids, and plenty of Kites & Buzzards along with the odd Sparrowhawk. I do wonder why, if the shoot can work without the persecution here, why not elsewhere?
 
Jelster said:
We. have open hilltop grassland here in Wiltshire, with a lot of Pheasant & Partridge, obviously bred for "sport". However, we also have loads of corvids, and plenty of Kites & Buzzards along with the odd Sparrowhawk. I do wonder why, if the shoot can work without the persecution here, why not elsewhere?
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TBH I think the raptor persecution is very much exaggerated,
there are lots of smaller local shoots here,
and a very health population of red kites, buzzards and spars, the odd peregrine too.
 
Three satellite-tracked Hen Harriers have suddenly disappeared over land managed for driven grouse shooting. All three disappearances have happened within days of the Inglorious Twelfth, the official start of the shooting season for Red Grouse, and a time where grouse numbers are managed to be at their peak level to ensure a successful shooting season. That's now 101 Hen Harriers known to have been killed or gone missing on or near grouse moors since 2018! (raptorpersecution.org)
  • Three satellite tagged Hen Harriers have disappeared on private driven grouse moors in Northern England between August 9th and August 15th.
  • All three birds were fitted with a satellite tag, which regularly transmit data, allowing their movements to be monitored.
  • Two birds had fledged recently on the United Utilities Bowland Estate, and the third was a one-year-old female from the National Trust for Scotland Estate at Mar Lodge.
 
Cobra said:
TBH I think the raptor persecution is very much exaggerated,
there are lots of smaller local shoots here,
and a very health population of red kites, buzzards and spars, the odd peregrine too.
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Given the current status of Hen Harriers in the UK, I don’t agree.
 
Cobra said:
TBH I think the raptor persecution is very much exaggerated,
there are lots of smaller local shoots here,
and a very health population of red kites, buzzards and spars, the odd peregrine too.
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GeeJay57 said:
Given the current status of Hen Harriers in the UK, I don’t agree.
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I didn't agree either Glenn but I've spent enough time 'discussing' photography related subjects with Chris just lately.........I really couldn't be arsed to start with a non-photoraphy related issue as well ......... :headbang::LOL:
 
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Phil-D said:
I really couldn't be arsed to start with a non-photoraphy related issue as well ......... :headbang::LOL:
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:ROFLMAO:

GeeJay57 said:
Given the current status of Hen Harriers in the UK, I don’t agree.
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I'm not saying that raptor persecution doesn't happen, but I stand by my comment.
 
Cobra said:
:ROFLMAO:


I'm not saying that raptor persecution doesn't happen, but I stand by my comment.
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Well, as there seems to be plenty of grouse, so many that they can be shot in their thousands, there ought to be plenty of Hen Harriers. Instead they are on the Red list and turn up dead or go missing in areas where there are grouse and managed by those paid to raise said grouse.


You are of course free to stand by whatever you like.
 
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wilki said:
98 Hen Harriers are known to have been killed or gone missing on or near grouse moors since 2018! (raptorpersecution.org)
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Its 101 now......... Edit: I see that has already been mentioned.

But these are mostly the tagged hen harriers. How many untagged birds are shot, poisoned or just "disappear" around grouse moors?
 
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GeeJay57 said:
they are on the Red list and turn up dead or go missing in areas where there are grouse and managed by those paid to raise said grouse.
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Given that they nest on the sort of terrain where grouse are reared and shot that's probably where nasty things will happen to them.

While there's no disputing there is illegal killing of Hen Harriers they have also been preyed on by Eagle Owls in the past. If anyone knows the true numbers of them they'll keep quiet, because the pro Eagle Owl faction would be as unhappy about it as the pro Hen Harrier faction would.

How inconvenient would it be for the Hen Harrier supporters (or shooting opponents...) if it turned out Eagle Owls were responsible for bumping off a great proportion of the birds that 'go missing'?

I'm not suggesting that is the case, just putting forwards an alternative narrative. I wonder if White Tailed Eagles have a taste for harrier?:D

Everyone has an agenda and spins the facts to suit their cause. ;)
 
Ed Sutton said:
Given that they nest on the sort of terrain where grouse are reared and shot that's probably where nasty things will happen to them.

While there's no disputing there is illegal killing of Hen Harriers they have also been preyed on by Eagle Owls in the past. If anyone knows the true numbers of them they'll keep quiet, because the pro Eagle Owl faction would be as unhappy about it as the pro Hen Harrier faction would.

How inconvenient would it be for the Hen Harrier supporters (or shooting opponents...) if it turned out Eagle Owls were responsible for bumping off a great proportion of the birds that 'go missing'?

I'm not suggesting that is the case, just putting forwards an alternative narrative. I wonder if White Tailed Eagles have a taste for harrier?:D

Everyone has an agenda and spins the facts to suit their cause. ;)
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In view of the very small numbers of eagle owls, I can't imagine they have much of an effect on overall numbers of hen harriers. How many eagle owls are you aware of?

There is obviously going to be "difficulties" where hen harriers and grouse attempt to co-exist. But killing raptors has long been illegal, and those responsible for killing hen harriers on or near grouse moors are very rarely brought to justice. Only this morning a representative of the grouse moor owners was interviewed on Radio 4's farming programme and claimed that raptor persecution had ceased! When pushed a little harder by the interviewer he had to admit that there were still "isolated incidents"!
 
Ed Sutton said:
Given that they nest on the sort of terrain where grouse are reared and shot that's probably where nasty things will happen to them.

While there's no disputing there is illegal killing of Hen Harriers they have also been preyed on by Eagle Owls in the past. If anyone knows the true numbers of them they'll keep quiet, because the pro Eagle Owl faction would be as unhappy about it as the pro Hen Harrier faction would.

How inconvenient would it be for the Hen Harrier supporters (or shooting opponents...) if it turned out Eagle Owls were responsible for bumping off a great proportion of the birds that 'go missing'?

I'm not suggesting that is the case, just putting forwards an alternative narrative. I wonder if White Tailed Eagles have a taste for harrier?:D

Everyone has an agenda and spins the facts to suit their cause. ;)
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I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more game keepers raising Red Grouse than there are Eagle Owls and White Tailed Eagles combined in the UK.
 
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jerry12953 said:
How many eagle owls are you aware of?
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My info might be out of date so I'd rather not say. But what I have heard suggests there are (or have been) more about than get reported publicly.

My point was that there could be more causes of dead or missing Hen Harriers than the one that gets all the publicity.
 
Although grouse moors are managed, red grouse are endemic to the UK and have been around for thousands of years I reckon they would survive without land management.

I can't understand people who want to shoot an animal for fun.

Dave
 
Cobra said:
TBH I think the raptor persecution is very much exaggerated,
there are lots of smaller local shoots here,
and a very health population of red kites, buzzards and spars, the odd peregrine too.
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Ya know Chris, as a falconer and co-owner of one of the largest photography forums out there, which actively promotes bird and wildlife conservation, I'm surprised you've actually said this on open/public forum.

Now I know what you're going to say, you're entitled to your opinion and I totally agree, you are.........I just think, sometimes, opinions are better kept to yourself.
 
I posted what I know to be true ( you quoted it)


Phil-D said:
... which actively promotes bird and wildlife conservation,
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We do? I thought that we were a photography forum, and as such actively promotes all area's and genera of photography.
Take a look there are around, you maybe surprised to to learn there are 40 odd forums to take part in, Discussions, challenges, information and a whole host of other things,
not just the the bird forums.
We are not a branch of the RSPB, BBONT, or the ( any) mammal society.

Phil-D said:
I just think, sometimes, opinions are better kept to yourself.
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You got it.!
 
Phil-D said:
So, you don't?
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We neither do nor don't, no forums or subjects take precedence over any others, we provide platforms for people to post images, to discuss all aspects of photography and post images.
There is even a forum for people to bitch about a wide range of subjects, be that politics, religion or anything else that would p*** * you / them * off.
Again as below
Cobra said:
we are a photography forum, and as such actively promotes all area's and genera of photography.
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Media Centre

www.rspb.org.uk www.rspb.org.uk

Another possible over exaggerated case of raptor persecution?
 
Cobra said:
Already posted post #15 do keep up.
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It at least got you a like on your posts above, probably a few more to come
 
I'm a little confused how satellite tagged birds can disappear. I'm assuming the tag gets destroyed. It would be more accurate to say that a tag stopped transmitting giving a last known location. But that wouldn't make the news.
 
Ed Sutton said:
I'm a little confused how satellite tagged birds can disappear. I'm assuming the tag gets destroyed. It would be more accurate to say that a tag stopped transmitting giving a last known location. But that wouldn't make the news.
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All last known co co-ordinates over Grouse moors? Coincidence?
The question marks are for a reason, happy to listen other explanations as to why they all stop working over Grouse shoots.
 
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Phil-D said:
It at least got you a like on your posts above, probably a few more to come
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I think most people would agree that its a photography forum.
Oh and I'm just about to like Dave's post.

As you pointed I am a falconer, and used to fly birds with transmitters, they do get fault, fail, run out of power,
And its a bugger to track them when that happens, but then years of accumulated knowledge and skill doesn't make it impossible
 
There was one case where a tagged golden eagle "disappeared" and then a long time later its tag was found wrapped in lead at the bottom of a river.

I'm sure those that know can tell how and why a bird "disappears" from the way that the tag stops transmitting, but I can't find the reasoning. Perhaps someone else will come along with it.
 
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