Timeless'ness of digital cameras?

[Markk]

I've lately been GASing for a Fujifilm, something like the X100V, X-E4, X-T3, X-T30 etc etc. Generally speaking, a retro-style, small camera for street/family/travel with the thought that it should last many many years that maybe even (my) children would eventually grow into it.

These are not 'cheap' cameras (I know I know, there are pricier things like Nikon's D6, but still...)

Usually you hear the "invest in lenses because they last, camera bodies get replaced"

I have a few film cameras (NIkon EL, F90x, some Zenits) from my parents and other sources, but these are 'timeless' bodies and a few of my lenses are still compatible but even the newer Nikon stuff is compatible throughout.

But I look at something like the X100V which has a fixed prime lens and wonder will that be something I can pass down to children in 20-30 years. Will it still be relevant? Will it last physically? What are the changes it might need an LCD replacement and will those be replaceable? Could an X100V be the FM3a of the digital world? Or do you approach modern digital stuff as 'consumable'?

This discussion came about after speaking with a friend that if we're to buy something really nice, like the X100V (or even things like a Leica), that it should last maybe even a generation...or two. But is that viable in today's world especially with companies going mirrorless and lenses changing and mounts?

 

[4wd]

There might eventually be problems with camera specific RAW files but you would think ways to handle USB connections and jpg files will be around for decades.

 

[woof woof]

I can't know for sure but I think that the kit we are using today might have a relatively short life. I have some film era manual lenses which are decades old and also some new manual lenses which seem to be very well made and should last a long time but will modern AF fly by wire lenses still be usable in 10 or 20 years time? Maybe. Lenses may outlast camera bodies but even then there's the question of if anyone will be interested in them in 20 years time. If the tech has moved on significantly or if mobile phone cameras get better or if something else comes along maybe the kit we have today will be... about as interesting as the first digital compacts seem today.

One thing that puts me off fixed lens cameras is that although they may be less prone to contamination if it happens they're difficult or maybe impossible for most of us to clean and will need sending off for a strip down and clean. For that reason I think a camera and one removable lens is maybe a better longer term bet than a fixed lens camera, just in case contamination finds its way onto the sensor.

I used to fix electronic stuff so I'm maybe better placed than many but just thinking about the old stuff I have, I have some stuff which is about 40 years old but much of it has needed fixing at some point as solder joints dry out, capacitors dry out and connections, switches, buttons and even cables crumble. One thing I do worry about is equipment which was made during the change over to rosin free solder when RoHS came in. At that time I was working for a group of manufacturing companies and they did hit problems as some of the solder coming in in the early days was rubbish. Once everyone got their act together things did improve but what I saw at that time does make me wonder if some kit made at that time will have a shorter life expectancy.

 

[Stephen L]

Electronics can and does age, and fail in time. But mechanical cameras have a finite life unless apprentices who can fix them are in the pipeline. And I don't mean "only" parts-replacement technicians, but skilled artisans who can actually manufacture parts if needed.

Personally I've never been affected by dust issues on a fixed-lens digital camera, and I've owned more than a few, but I accept that it can and does exist. Just to a far lesser degree than ILCs.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I would suggest that the appropriate motto is: "The world moves on. Move with it."

People impressed by typewriters and old cars are beyond my understanding but then, I was there and know just how rubbish they were. The same applies to cameras. Rolleis and Leicas, Nikons and Hasselblads were good at the time but now the best of them is outperformed, in many ways, by cheap digital kit.

Mind you, there are even people who think that slide rules are "cool". If you had 20-20 vision and could remember where the decimal points were, perhaps. On the other hand, why did the electronic calculator kill the things stone dead in less than a decade?

 

[Stephen L]

I would suggest that the appropriate motto is: "The world moves on. Move with it."

People impressed by typewriters and old cars are beyond my understanding but then, I was there and know just how rubbish they were. The same applies to cameras. Rolleis and Leicas, Nikons and Hasselblads were good at the time but now the best of them is outperformed, in many ways, by cheap digital kit.

Mind you, there are even people who think that slide rules are "cool". If you had 20-20 vision and could remember where the decimal points were, perhaps. On the other hand, why did the electronic calculator kill the things stone dead in less than a decade?

View attachment 343396

Some people like the nostalgia of old things. Nowt wrong with that. (though I'd hate to try to remember how to use a slide rule ...)

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Some people like the nostalgia of old things. Nowt wrong with that. (though I'd hate to try to remember how to use a slide rule ...)

Oh, I can remember...

I just can't see the markings on the damned things!

 

[Nod]

Unfortunately, electronics die and are often (?usually?) hard to repair.

Also, the X100? is fixed focal length (if you ignore the expensive supplementary lenses) so can't really be compared to the FM3a or any SLR.

 

[Harlequin565]

I recently sold an X-T1 where the viewfinder just "stopped working" and I had to rely on the rear screen.

Eventually, even if the electronics survive, I reckon the batteries for these cameras will become obsolete and difficult to source (along with the chargers) so my guess is that after 20-30 years, once the battery dies, or the charger breaks, that will be the end of it. As a cabinet display piece, it would remain a memento of the past, but as a functioning camera, I think its days would be done.

I have a working early-70s Hi-matic F than needs a fudge with blu-tack and a paper clip to get it working with hearing aid batteries...

 

[Mr Perceptive]

@Markk

One thing that puts me off fixed lens cameras is that although they may be less prone to contamination if it happens they're difficult or maybe impossible for most of us to clean and will need sending off for a strip down and clean. For that reason I think a camera and one removable lens is maybe a better longer term bet than a fixed lens camera, just in case contamination finds its way onto the sensor.

Alan, you mention this every time you enter a thread about a fixed lens camera - yet you own some pockettable zoom cameras with fixed lenses - in theory a moving zoom camera is even more likely to allow foreign bodies into teh camera as its a significant moving part.

The X100V is a weather sealed camera (with the add on Fuji kit) so should be as good as its going to get with a fixed lens camera in this regard, and so I suspect the OP will be just fine. My first generation X100 now 10 years old has no sensor contamination issues.

In addition Fuji's excellent support/service centre no doubt would deal with any issue if it arose.

Electronics can and does age, and fail in time.

This is a valid point, but there are plenty of cameras out there from the 70's and 80's with early basic electronics that are happily working, that said if the electronics does go wrong on something that age you have pobably gained a paperweight!

 

[Markk]

@Markk
The X100V is a weather sealed camera (with the add on Fuji kit) so should be as good as its going to get with a fixed lens camera in this regard, and so I suspect the OP will be just fine. My first generation X100 now 10 years old has no sensor contamination issues.

It is quite high on the list. But I'm torn between the possibility of interchangeable lenses for a smaller price. The X100V (or similar) seems like a very expensive 'future paper-weight' if these things are really that finite.

 

[soupdragon]

People impressed by typewriters and old cars are beyond my understanding but then, I was there and know just how rubbish they were. The same applies to cameras. Rolleis and Leicas, Nikons and Hasselblads were good at the time but now the best of them is outperformed, in many ways, by cheap digital kit.

What about the Mona Lisa?
That's old, and I'm sure a £200 point and shoot would catch more eye detail but most people would not say it was rubbish.
Actually, the pyramids are quite old and people still pay good money to travel and see them.

 

[Nod]

An X-Pro1 and a 27mm pancake lens might be an option for a fixed lens option and still allow the use of other lenses since it's not a fixed lens! If the EVF dies, the OVF should still work (I think.)

 

[Mr Perceptive]

It is quite high on the list. But I'm torn between the possibility of interchangeable lenses for a smaller price. The X100V (or similar) seems like a very expensive 'future paper-weight' if these things are really that finite.

Modern cameras have a lot of electronics in them, they all will fail at some point, and forward compatibility of lenses is not guaranteed (neither for that matter is the existence of any camera manufacturer). At some point you will have to take some risk. If you get value for money out opf the purchase in the years before its demise then you've won the game!

Modern lenses have plenty of electronics inside them as well, they are just as likely to fail as a camera, possibly more so due to the moving parts.

 

[woof woof]

@Markk


Alan, you mention this every time you enter a thread about a fixed lens camera - yet you own some pockettable zoom cameras with fixed lenses - in theory a moving zoom camera is even more likely to allow foreign bodies into teh camera as its a significant moving part.

The X100V is a weather sealed camera (with the add on Fuji kit) so should be as good as its going to get with a fixed lens camera in this regard, and so I suspect the OP will be just fine. My first generation X100 now 10 years old has no sensor contamination issues.

In addition Fuji's excellent support/service centre no doubt would deal with any issue if it arose.



This is a valid point, but there are plenty of cameras out there from the 70's and 80's with early basic electronics that are happily working, that said if the electronics does go wrong on something that age you have pobably gained a paperweight!

It's something I think about and I'm nervous about spending a lot on a fixed lens camera. I have a couple of compacts which are worth nothing and the TZ100 which was quite expensive and if that gets contaminated it might be a write off, ditto if the lens goes wonky. Cameras like the TZ100 have no removeable lens equivalent but others like the Fuji X100 or Panasonic LX100 do as cameras like the Panasonic GX80 are about the same size and I can use one with just one lens permanently attached if I want and if it gets a dust bunny it's easy enough to clean.

It may be an irrational fear and yes fixed lens cameras are probably less likely to suffer contamination but we've all read posts from people this has happened to and we must therefore make our own minds up. I just don't see the point if alternative and easier to DIY clean roughly comparable cameras are available.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

What about the Mona Lisa? ... but most people would not say it was rubbish.

Every time someone says this sort of thing, I'm reminded of a line from a book that I read several decades ago:
"Oh, yes? How many people have you asked?"

 

[stickytape]

Perhaps there's something wrong with me.. but I love both. I'd say I love the cutting edge features on my Canon R5 or Lumix G100.. but then I get great pleasure from going around the block with my Fuji S1 Pro (2000), Canon D30 (2000) or the excellent but vastly underappreciated Kodak DCS Pro SLR (2003).

Throw in the original Canon Digital Rebel (2002) and excellent Sony F828 (2002) and you can see my sorts of things..

Place for both, I always delight in surprising people that this picture was taken on a 20-year-old digital camera sort of comments..

 

[soupdragon]

Every time someone says this sort of thing, I'm reminded of a line from a book that I read several decades ago:
"Oh, yes? How many people have you asked?"

Well I don't really need to ask anyone, there is a whole group of people on this very forum who are using (as you would put it) rubbish cameras.

Reminds me of a quoted comment from decades ago "Look, my son is the only one in step"

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Well I don't really need to ask anyone, there is a whole group of people on this very forum who are using (as you would put it) rubbish cameras.

What on earth has that got to do with the number of people who "would not say [the Mona Lisa] was rubbish"?

...and yes, I still have a film camera or two...

 

[Mintchocs]

It’s not worth thinking about passing it on to your kids, technology is progressing so quickly and modern stuff isn’t built to last that long. I have a 2005 Olympus compact camera but one card slot format XD is defunct and CF is also going that way and the battery is impossible to find.

 

[soupdragon]

What on earth has that got to do with the number of people who "would not say [the Mona Lisa] was rubbish"?

...and yes, I still have a film camera or two...

View attachment 343430

Can we stop now?
I meant no offence.
Sorry.

 

[Plain Nev]

Digital cameras are very much of their time and will not age well. Anything electronic will fail or be impossible to replace. Manual cameras are more future proofed than most. Although they can fail, of course. But there is more chance of them being around in 40 years time than your average Sony.

 

[SFTPhotography]

There might eventually be problems with camera specific RAW files but you would think ways to handle USB connections and jpg files will be around for decades.

Not so sure - new software just gets new camera's added - not old ones taken away.

 

[LCPete]

To be honest I can’t think of any real reason why digital cameras won’t carry on working for a long time, they are well made, I’ve never had any camera I’ve had go wrong
Only issue may be batteries

 

[Stephen L]

Remember that consumer digital cameras have only been around for about 25 years or so, therefore we have no evidence of longevity. Film cameras have been used for a considerably longer time. Some of the original mechanical (ie, shutter, diaphragm) cameras may well still be able to produce results. But they will no doubt have needed the attention of capable technicians. A dying trade.

 

[Dave Canon]

I passed several of my old cameras to my daughter, She sold them on ebay; why should she need big clumsy DSLR (or SLR film camera as she has a phone.

Dave

 

[Phil V]

There’s a flaw in your logic.

You’re thinking of using a very expensive x100v and wondering whether it’ll still be ok in 30 years.
But a much cheaper ten year old x100 model doesn’t appear to be good enough for you today.

 

[Markk]

There’s a flaw in your logic.

You’re thinking of using a very expensive x100v and wondering whether it’ll still be ok in 30 years.
But a much cheaper ten year old x100 model doesn’t appear to be good enough for you today.

Hmmm, an interesting thought.

 

[lemo]

ten year old x100 model

X100S - I would go for the second generation. I would still stick with this model if I hadn't destroyed the card slot with a broken card. I got an X100V, which is of course also good, but my first reaction was that if my X100S was still intact I would have borrowed a V model for testing, then I wouldn't have made the upgrade.

I also have a Contax 139 Quartz, about 35 years old, which also has already quite a lot of electronics in it and it still works very well. I had to replace the light seals, but that's not necessary with a digital camera anyway. But the analogue Canon EOS bodies, like the EOS 300 and EOS 500, also work perfectly. The EOS 500 was built between 1993 and 1996, so it's between 26 and 29 years old.

But it can't be planned for, the camera could be broken in a few years and will certainly be taken out of service at some point and officially no longer repaired. Spare parts will also only be available for a limited time. Unless it is a Leica.
But I'm not sure whether a digital Leica will still be repaired in 50 years. They say that an analogue Leica that is 50 years old can still be repaired by the manufacturer. But for the mechanical cameras, they can still make the spare parts themselves, but that won't be possible for special electronic parts and processors.

At some point, it will also become a problem to get new batteries, whose lifetime is quite limited.

 

[Nod]

In THEORY, fresh batteries can be built using new cells, PRACTICE may well be more complicated! (Having said that, I did replace the cells in an old Bosch mobile phone battery and extended its life by a couple of years.)

 

[Mr Perceptive]

There’s a flaw in your logic.

You’re thinking of using a very expensive x100v and wondering whether it’ll still be ok in 30 years.
But a much cheaper ten year old x100 model doesn’t appear to be good enough for you today.

This is one of 'best' responses I've seen on TP - excellent!

The only argument against is maybe the X100 series has come of age with the X100V, as most of the perceived shortcomings have been fixed (WR, close focus wide open, etc, etc) - that said the colour rendition (IMO) out of the original X100 still can't be beaten by later models.

 

[Retune]

This discussion came about after speaking with a friend that if we're to buy something really nice, like the X100V (or even things like a Leica), that it should last maybe even a generation...or two. But is that viable in today's world especially with companies going mirrorless and lenses changing and mounts?

I think many current cameras won't last a couple of generations, and you might be worse off with a smaller manufacturer like Leica, because you'll need:

(1) Batteries. Every company insists on using proprietary designs, makes them for a few years, then comes out with an improved version that is often not backwards-compatible with older cameras. Some companies like to block third-party alternatives, supposedly to protect the cameras, but also (a cynic might say) to protect their battery sales. But batteries have a finite life, even if you don't use them. In a generation or two, are you even going to be able to power up that family heirloom? And if your batteries are dead, are you going to be able to find fresh ones anywhere? This is already a problem, especially for more obscure batteries like the ones they made for Leica's Digital Modul R (with batteries for mass-market cameras it's more likely that somebody has cloned them and might still be selling the copies.).

(2) Media. 35mm film has existed since the 19th century, and been commonly used in still cameras since the 1920s. You can put any modern roll in that 90 year old Leica and it will work fine. But modern media cards have a pretty short lifespan before they are replaced by something faster with a higher capacity. A camera designed for the original SD cards won't work with SDHC, and an SDHC camera won't work with SDXC. The less said about the various Sony media card formats the better, or the recent CFast vs XQD format war, both of which will probably bow out to CFexpress. In 20 years, you may struggle to find an old card that is compatible with your old camera.

(3) Repairs. That 90 year old Leica can still be fully serviced and repaired. Components for which original replacements are no longer available, like beamsplitter mirrors, have been fabricated by third parties. The mechanisms are fully understood and documented. But once the electronic components of today's cameras go out of stock, it may be impossible to repair your camera. This is already a serious problem for many film cameras with electronic components. Even the Leica M6-TTL, a camera made until 2002 and worth perhaps £2700 today, has a circuit board that Leica no longer stocks. The mechanical shutter will still work if this dies, but not the meter or flash sync. The situation is even worse for some of their digitals. The Leica M9 and its derivatives, including the M-E Typ 220 (a camera they sold until 2015) have sensor stacks that tend to corrode over time. Leica sourced an improved version of the sensor without this issue, but have now used up their stocks (partly because they couldn't resist taking some of the M9 bodies their customers had returned with dud sensors and combining them with the last of their fixed sensors to sell on as refurb jobs). If your sensor develops corrosion today, Leica won't help you.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

I think this will be difficult, in the same way as it somewhat getting difficult to run 30 year old PC or Apple hardware. In fact many of these are becoming collectable items due to their rarity. The latter is unlikely to happen to your typical Nikon or Canon any time soon due to relative abundance.

We are in the position now, and we actually were 8-10 years ago where 35mm digital cameras got really amazing capturing very high res STILLS suitable for 1, 2 or even 3m long prints. Video is just about getting there NOW. Time is obviously not going to change that, but as things move on it may become harder and harder due to electronics and proprietary formats.

As the post above clearly identified there will / may be issues with batteries, memory cards and repairs. You could probably future proof yourself a little by buying lots of spares, batteries, cards, cables and perhaps another camera or two for spare internals...
Best strategy for batteries is to make sure it can take AAs in some form. Some Grips take AAs. Like on for 5DIII. Or the battery of 1DsII was actually made of I think 8x AA in that casing. You can split it open and replace. That's presuming AA is still around then.
As things go with old cars (not vintage, just old. Like 15-20 year old) more popular models and better constructed models will rule the day. You want clean simple designs resistant to failure.
I could see the following points of "friction":

* moisture ingress / oxidation of boards --> weather-sealed cameras like 1Dx, 5DIV, D850, D5, Pentax
* worn out moving parts --> longest shutter life 1Dx, D5 or better electronic shutter and mirrorless but risk of EVF failure.
* accidental damage --> 1Dx or D5 level bodies will fare best by design. 5D / D850 acceptable. Flip out LCDs are something that watch in particular. Also bent CF pins!!!
* oxidation of plastic components, rubber, seals and glue. --> eventually all of them will get hit. I expect Pro bodies to outlast the rest but maybe not by that much. You could probably mitigate that by DIY servicing before it gets too late. Hopefully you can find gasket kits somewhere. I wouldn't buy them now for the same reason. Maybe you can 3D print it in a few years time.

Sadly they are all designed to fail in a few short decades. Same applies to most new lenses due to planned obsolescence. Canon's refusal to service older big whites is essentially criminal.
Your typical lenses have too many plastic and rubber parts. Lens collars are weak and AF motors get burn out given enough time. And the new ones in RF / Z mount are much much worse than EF for triple the cost. I'd rather get Sigma ART which are far stronger construction.

In short I don't plan to hold on to any electronic gear for longer than I have to or is practical. 10 years max for bodies; 15-20 for lenses... PCs maybe 3-5. Phones 1-2... If you have something that you think can become a collectible keep it in pristine condition for 40 years... You might get lucky even if it doesn't switch on anymore

 

[gramps]

Things today aren't built to last, obsolescence is designed in, if only by a redesign/upgrade.
Most people are always after the latest and abandon 'lesser' models to oblivion, you have only to look at the 'Talk Equipment' or 'For Sale' parts of the forum

 

[LCPete]

Although I agree most stuff nowadays isn’t made to last cameras do seem to be at least in my experience Japanese ones anyway
Although what’s happens with me anyway is that I have to have the latest body even tho I probably don’t need it
But my cameras are always well used with a shutter count of over 70 k and I’ve never had one go wrong