video:Stopped yesterday for photographing in a public place!

Whilst I agree this is quite wrong and bad, lets take a look at this from a more abstract viewpoint.

Lets make the big assumption (and I think you'll find this is accurate) that any police officer doesn't have to know every law and every arrestable offence by heart.

Sure they will know *some* of them, but the rest will be on a case by case basis.

Is it illegal for me to have a camel in a public place?

Is brandishing a banana like a gun illegal?

What they do is to see stuff they think might be wrong, then call it in for someone with a better grip of law enforcement to make a call. If it looks really dicey, they arrest/detain you while they find out.

If anything is wrong in this scenario its the support that PCSO has received over the radio... she is just doing what she's been trained to do - spot "bad stuff" and tackle it.

How many other photographers has she ever confronted? How about unlicenced dangerous animals? Or replica firearms?

No, 99.9% of her experience will almost certainly be theft, violence and public order.

Just because we are photographers, don't expect the police to know specifics about us.

Its still wrong and as i said, the control room should have given her the correct advice... and once given, she should have appologised and informed our friend that what he was doing was legal.
 
PS if its any consolation, you see exactly this type of thing with firearms too... and thats a little bit more serious than this!!

After you've been around the problem for a while, you tend to get less hysterical about it and just wait for the cogs to grind and for another member of HM's constabulary to get some on the job training at your expense ;-)
 
desantnik said:
Lets make the big assumption (and I think you'll find this is accurate) that any police officer doesn't have to know every law and every arrestable offence by heart.
What they do is to see stuff they think might be wrong, then call it in for someone with a better grip of law enforcement to make a call. If it looks really dicey, they arrest/detain you while they find out.
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There is no power of arrest for "wait while I find out", at least not in the UK!
If an officer doesn't know if a matter is an 'offence' or not, how can they arrest for or on suspicion of it?
If a police officer gets a complaint he needs to look into it, however if it's groundless then they should let it go and tell the complainant that it's a non-issue.
It is possible to be guilty of 'conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace' but it's hard to see how that would happen in circumstances like these unless there was a deliberate baiting of people over taking the photos.
 
They start with a chat... and see how it escalates from there.

I have to say the video gets quite heated and finger pointy quite quickly. Still agree its wrong, still agree I'd probably have done no better, but looking at it coldly, thats what happened...

Its a tough job being a copper, have no doubt about that.
 
Ok, it's an even tougher job being a pcso because everyone wants to tell you that you are a waste of space... Imagine how that feels?
 
desantnik said:
Whilst I agree this is quite wrong and bad, lets take a look at this from a more abstract viewpoint.

Lets make the big assumption (and I think you'll find this is accurate) that any police officer doesn't have to know every law and every arrestable offence by heart.

Sure they will know *some* of them, but the rest will be on a case by case basis.

Is it illegal for me to have a camel in a public place?

Is brandishing a banana like a gun illegal?

What they do is to see stuff they think might be wrong, then call it in for someone with a better grip of law enforcement to make a call. If it looks really dicey, they arrest/detain you while they find out.

If anything is wrong in this scenario its the support that PCSO has received over the radio... she is just doing what she's been trained to do - spot "bad stuff" and tackle it.

How many other photographers has she ever confronted? How about unlicenced dangerous animals? Or replica firearms?

No, 99.9% of her experience will almost certainly be theft, violence and public order.

Just because we are photographers, don't expect the police to know specifics about us.

Its still wrong and as i said, the control room should have given her the correct advice... and once given, she should have appologised and informed our friend that what he was doing was legal.
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:plus1:

Just what I was thinking as I read all the comments. The OP should have asked for a real PC to be called to the scene and take it from there. Even then that does not guarantee that he/she would be any the wiser but more chance of it.

Everyone seems very quick to berate the police but can they say they know everything about the job they do themselves, and those that say they do are kidding themselves.
 
tamphotography said:
what shocked me more was they claimed they would arrest me, tho have no powers of arrest!!
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Yeah they do. They can use the power of citizens arrest you are actually commiting a crime just like you or I can do.
 
You kept your cool OP. I go mental when people are just bloody-minded in their arguing.... I'd be gong postal at the point where you're asking what law you've broken....
 
I once had a problem with drivers illegally using a country lane (Access only) where I lived using it as a shortcut, there were only five houses and a farm and I had to walk my sons to school, there were five blind bends, the lane was so narrow your wing mirrors touched the hedges, I was so annoyed I insisted the police came and di the drivers.

A PCSO came, she said she could only in fact take registration numbers as she had no powers and by the way as it was a bit dark had I got a torch I could lend her :wacky:
 
By the way am I the only one who if I found myself in this position would simply say GO ON ARREST ME.

Why explain, explain what, I am a member of the public in a public place taking photos, b***** off or arrest me.
 
JSER said:
By the way am I the only one who if I found myself in this position would simply say GO ON ARREST ME.

Why explain, explain what, I am a member of the public in a public place taking photos, b***** off or arrest me.
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Maybe wouldn't have worded it like that, but yes.
Not had an encounter with the police before, but a building manager was giving me the same speil. Offereing him my phone to use to call the police soon shut him up. :LOL:
 
specialman said:
You kept your cool OP. I go mental when people are just bloody-minded in their arguing.... I'd be gong postal at the point where you're asking what law you've broken....
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Again, I'm not saying what happened was good... but...

Have you ever watched one of those police camera TV show things?

Every single damned incident contains someone arguing about what the police are trying to tell them, the person citing "you can't do that" and "i'm not doing anything wrong" and "i'm taking your badge number" and "i'm filing a complaint"

Imagine that, 12 hours a day, 5 days a week... it must get:

a) pretty boring
b) pretty frustrating
c) after time... just bloody well ignored.

Probably a little calmer response to start with would have helped, not citing that "I studied law" and other stuff like that - its not going to make the situation any better.

Easy for me to say with hindsight and from a distant perspective but I'm sure this could be replayed with a totally different outcome.
 
JSER said:
By the way am I the only one who if I found myself in this position would simply say GO ON ARREST ME.

Why explain, explain what, I am a member of the public in a public place taking photos, b***** off or arrest me.
Click to expand...

Think I would have just walked off and carried on shooting to be honest. I'm not going to argue with someone who clearly has no idea, nor am I going to waste my time waiting for them to get someone there who might know.. If they want to arrest me hen the proper police do arrive, they can come and find me.

After all I wouldn't be hard to spot, what with all the harassing and public order offences.
 
If they've become so apathetic then time to change careers. It all sounds like something from a Kafka story, you'll be arrested and we won't tell you for what. Judging by the Inspector/military parade story posted yesterday asking for a 'real PC' wouldn't have been any guarantee in a jump of quality either.

You have to wonder how often these stories happen without being recorded or put on forums.
 
An interesting thread.

I agree with Desantnik.

The action of the PSCOs was wrong but there seem to be two issues here.

Some -
the need for consent from those photographed in a public place,
the demand that images were deleted,
that the PSCO could sue the photographer, and
that if a member of the public complained the photographer could be "nicked" for harassment

relate to the law.

The PSCOs should know the law but we all make mistakes. However, there seems to have been radio communication between the PSCOs and their local station. If that happened and the PSCOs were supported in their actions then I think that is much more worrying. I would have hoped the station would have asked, what happened, where did it happen, what did the photographer say, what did you say and then advised that the photographer was doing nothing wrong.

The other issue is the comment made by the female PSCO on the video. She says, I think I have this correct, "I know I'm not comfortable with you having pictures of me on your camera"

That is fine, she has a right to feel uncomfortable about that if she wishes, but I would have hoped that part of the training of PSCOs would have pointed out that as they are in the public eye while on duty, being photographed is something that could happen and while they may not like it, it is not something they can do anything about.

Most folks will have seen these links before, but they are a fairly succinct summary.

http://www.met.police.uk/about/photography.htm

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-...ome-office-circulars/circulars-2009/012-2009/

Please keep us posted of the outcome.

Dave
 
POAH said:
Yeah they do. They can use the power of citizens arrest you are actually commiting a crime just like you or I can do.
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Citizens arrest:
• Arrest for an "indictable offence" under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.
• Arrest of persons committing, or about to commit a Breach of the Peace under common law.
• Use of reasonable force to prevent crime or arrest offenders or persons unlawfully at large under the Criminal Law Act 1967.

It's dodgy, to say the least but a PCSO/Security Guard should be trained to know when and if to effect a legal citizens arrest. Misuse can land the arrester in whole load of trouble, legal and otherwise.
 
JSER said:
I once had a problem with drivers illegally using a country lane (Access only) where I lived using it as a shortcut, there were only five houses and a farm and I had to walk my sons to school, there were five blind bends, the lane was so narrow your wing mirrors touched the hedges, I was so annoyed I insisted the police came and di the drivers.

A PCSO came, she said she could only in fact take registration numbers as she had no powers and by the way as it was a bit dark had I got a torch I could lend her :wacky:
Click to expand...

Nice to see a PSCO that knows her stuff then.

Trespass is a civil matter, what the drivers were doing was not illegal, but a tort.
 
OP "Under what law"

PC "I'll find out when I arrest you for it".

WHAT!!! .......the OP did extremely well to keep his cool......well done!
 
DemiLion said:
Nice to see a PSCO that knows her stuff then.

Trespass is a civil matter, what the drivers were doing was not illegal, but a tort.
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Only in England ;)
 
I had a mate who years ago became a part time special copper and everytime he went out he was with a real copper, to me it seems a bit stupid having these part timers walking around when in reality they have no more powers than you and me. Also seeing as they have no idea what they are taking about.

I am on me laptop at work and i cannot get sound for some reason and the signal is so weak the video does not play, so what happend to the other copper that walked off on his radio did he ever come back with some real information??
seems everyone is slagging the woman off but what happend about the other guy????

spike
 
DemiLion said:
I'm pretty certain that Devon still counts as England, but these damned celts are getting uppity about devolution everywhere you look! :D
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Yip dam English scum lol
 
SpikeK6 said:
I had a mate who years ago became a part time special copper and everytime he went out he was with a real copper, to me it seems a bit stupid having these part timers walking around when in reality they have no more powers than you and me. Also seeing as they have no idea what they are taking about.

I am on me laptop at work and i cannot get sound for some reason and the signal is so weak the video does not play, so what happend to the other copper that walked off on his radio did he ever come back with some real information??
seems everyone is slagging the woman off but what happend about the other guy????

spike
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IIRC Specials have the same powers as a regular PC (they are sworn in in front of a Court/Mag), including arrest, they just do it on a voluntary basis.

PSCOs are something altogether different, and again IIRC - they have different powers depending upon their force area, granted by the Chief Inspector (up to and including detaining a suspect - although I don't know if any force actually does allow PSCOs to do that).

As for the OP's experience, I would say that desantnik's appraisal is likely bang on the money. However, I question whether PSCOs should be aware (or be made aware/encouraged to learn) the law in areas like this.

It would seem prudent given the the number of well publicised incidents, albiet which include both PCs and PSCOs, and the negative impression it leaves with the public at large.
 
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Desantnik - totally agree with your point about suffering this kind of things (or worse) as if it was on a loop. It would do my head in but I'm not calm enough to assess things normally. I'd just throw my teddy out and have a strop.... :LOL:
 
Crazy crazy crazy! I'm looking forward to hearing how the radio interview goes, especially if they have someone from the police to comment as well. Also, to hear what happens to the PSCOs following this.

Dave posted a couple of links, but wasn't there a great 1 or 2 page document that was perfect for us as photographers to carry in our bags from one of the senior police, or is that just my imagination?
 
desantnik said:
Every single damned incident contains someone arguing about what the police are trying to tell them, the person citing "you can't do that" and "i'm not doing anything wrong" and "i'm taking your badge number" and "i'm filing a complaint"

Imagine that, 12 hours a day, 5 days a week... it must get:

a) pretty boring
b) pretty frustrating
c) after time... just bloody well ignored.

Probably a little calmer response to start with would have helped, not citing that "I studied law" and other stuff like that - its not going to make the situation any better.
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I know you're playing Devil's Advocate, and I'm sure it can be a frustrating job, but that's one of the aspects of the job they should expect and be trained to deal with. :shrug: If the 'Officer' knows the Law, they carry on doing their job with the knowledge that they are in the right. They may not know all the Laws, (who does?) but if they don't know the Law then you shouldn't try to enforce things you may 'think' is wrong. :shrug: Surely when this type of situation pops up in the media, as it seems to be doing more and more, they brief the staff on what to do that if you get into this situation 'you can and can't do this'. :shrug: Even to just stopping this from happening again and leaving them open to falling foul of the Law themselves. :bonk:

One of the worrying things in this was the we'll arrest you and decide what for later attitude. :eek: If you don't know what you are arresting someone for then you shouldn't be arresting anyone, or threatening to arrest someone either. :bang:
 
If I don't know how to do something at work I find out, get trained, hell I even ask someone who does know how to handle the problem or situation.

I don't, as a rule, steam in and make things up as I go along. I'm sure many if not most follow these same basic principles, as radical and outlandish they may seem.

The PSCO in the video clearly didn't have a clue and was doing nothing more than improvising. Just not acceptable given what they allegedly represent.
 
redhed17 said:
One of the worrying things in this was the we'll arrest you and decide what for later attitude. :eek: If you don't know what you are arresting someone for then you shouldn't be arresting anyone, or threatening to arrest someone either. :bang:
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Really? So you'd want the police to only deal with things they know the law inside and out about?

I could think of a ton of things that the Daily Mail would be outraged if the Police didn't intervene in that I wouldn't expect a copper to know and thats without getting into obscure Acts of Parliament from the 17th Century.

As I said, the correct way of handling it is to intervene, ask questions, call for advice from the expert (who also may not know the answer) and hope in the meantime that the suspect is not going to go garrety on you and if they do, arrest them for being a ********/smart alec.

People have this idea that being arrested is a permanent thing and that they will prosecute you... the police do not judge the law, the CPS decide on the likelyhood of the illegality and the judge is the person who convicts you.

Just being arrested is not really a big deal and can be revoked...

But none of this is possible if you start screaming and shouting and getting in the face of the copper... thats where everyone goes wrong.
 
SpikeK6 said:
I had a mate who years ago became a part time special copper and everytime he went out he was with a real copper, to me it seems a bit stupid having these part timers walking around when in reality they have no more powers than you and me. Also seeing as they have no idea what they are taking about.


spike
Click to expand...

You are now confusing 2 very different things, a PCSO is a Police support officer, this is a civilian position and they have no extra powers of arrest above what a normal member of the public has.

A Special Constable (the clue is in the title) is a police constable who while only working part time has the full powers of a constable (even while off duty) and he can operate anywhere, a lot of forces are getting over the cuts by giving Specials response driving training and they patrol and answer calls solo. A Special Constable is given 16 weeks training and has to be signed off for independent patrol before working alone.
 
I think I will have a wander into Mansfield tomorrow and see if I can find PCSO in question.

If she has any objections to a photo being taken of her, it will be pointed out its for an article on police attitudes to street photography in the town and to take it up with my Editor/Union if they have a problem with it
 
desantnik said:
Just being arrested is not really a big deal and can be revoked...
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Whilst the rest of your post probably deserves a response this bit jumped out. Of course being arrested is a big deal, in the UK, once arrested you can be compelled to give DNA (which is normally held, even if there is NFA on the arrest. You will also require a visa to enter the USA, the visa waiver scheme actualy asks you to affirm you have never been arrested.

Just 2 things that popped into my head with 5 seconds thought, getting arrested can cause problems down the road.
 
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