Concepts What kind of photograph is it?

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Graham
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I have a horrible feeling I might regret posting this :-(

In discussions on what makes a good photograph, or on what makes a good photographer, or on when does a photograph become something other than a photograph etc , there is often an underlying confusion because different people have different concepts of what lies behind the intent and objectives for any particular photograph. It seems especially important to have some grasp of why a photograph was taken before rushing into critique or deep discussion.

In "another place", at the end of last year I wrote something on this where I split photography into three overlapping categories aimed at providing a framework for understanding and assessing photographs. Given Ian's recent post, I thought I might revisit it here.

The three categories suggested were : functional photography, documentary photography, and expressive photography.

Functional photography is a very broad category, that includes all photography that is primarily subject (or client) driven. It tends to allow a relatively simple quality assessment approach. At it's most simplistic, this can be something along the lines of "was the client pleased with the results?" "is this a realistic rendering of the beauty I saw in this sunset when I took the photograph", "does this photograph accurately and realistically show the visual information I need to display in my scientific report" or "do these photographs give a good record of my holiday last year".

Expressive photography is primarily photographer driven. It has no easy assessment criteria because the subject can be realistically rendered or completely unrecognisable. A lot of the time the photographs are being made to fill a personal need of the photographer So with expressive photography you usually need to try and look more deeply into the mind and heart of the photographer than you would with functional photography.

I suspect these roughly match Andrew's reportage/artist split.

Documentary Photography was given it's own category as it seemed to clearly contain large elements of both functional and expressive photography, and have its own strict demands on photographic honesty and integrity that aren't a necessity in the other categories. I've now rather abandoned it as part of the core methodology, as the honesty and integrity demand can extend beyond documentary photography.

I think that all photographs will have an intent that combines some elements of both function and personal expression. And part of how we look at, assess, and critique a photograph will depend on how much is functional and how much is expressive. Criticism of functional photographs might focus more on technique, while criticism of expressive photographs might focus more on emotion and message.

As I like numbers, I often build what I call "mind models" to help structure my thoughts. Although, this usually includes some sort of numbers, they have no real meaning and are just an aid to thinking about what kind of photograph you are looking at.

I realise that some, many, most or indeed everyone, may well hate my approach. However, there is no need to go through the process I describe (unless you want to) all that's needed is to have it in the back of your mind to help your thought processes.

The approach is simple and needs a photograph to be given a functional score (between 1 and 9) and an expressive score (between 1 and 9), with the total score adding up to 10.

The lowest and highest scores are deliberately 1 and 9, as I have assumed no photograph can be 100% functional, even a surveillance camera still needs someone to decide where to position it. Nor can it be 100% expressive, as I'm not sure a its possible for a photograph to be 100% removed from a real subject and still be a photograph.

The functional score is scoring how much of the photographs relies on the subject (subject driven) and the technical skills needed by the photographer to take it, and the expressive score is how much the photograph relies on some unique vision of the photographer (photographer driven) and their technical skills at expressing that vision through the photograph.

A range of synonyms can be used instead of functional and expressive. For example you might prefer to use realistic instead of functional and artistic instead of expressive (though I would personally avoid using either artistic or creative). Or you might think of it in terms of an external drivers score and an internal drivers score. I'm happy with functional and expressive.

As an example, typical bird in flight photographs seem largely functional as they appear to rely on mainly technical skills to capture a realistic rendering of an attractive or spectacular bird. As the photograph relies almost entirely on the subject I would give these types of photographs a functional score of say 8 and an expressive score of 2.

As an alternative, a grainy photograph of a blurry bird against a grey stormy sea, where there is an obvious feel of a small but valiant bird fighting against the power of the wind and sea, is likely to have a higher expressive score of say 6 and a functional score of 4.

Or 5 and 5 or 7 and 3, it doesn't really matter as its just a way the forcing you into some structured thinking into understanding the purpose and intent of a photograph, and to help you offer appropriate and useful critique.

A simplistic example of how this might affect a critique, is that a suggestion to use Topaz Denoise AI to the photographer of the first BIF photograph might be useful, but would be nonsensical advice for the second.

Assuming anyone has made this far, an unexpected benefit of this approach has been to allow me to better understand my own photography.

As a life long birder I enjoy a bit of bird photography, but it's never given me the same emotional/spiritual satisfaction that making or looking at landscape type photographs give me.

This gave me a particular problems when it came to processing as I struggled to reconcile the different levels of effort I put into my bird photographs compared to my landscape photographs. Often feeling I was "short changing" my bird photographs.

Clearly identifying my bird photography as 80% functional allowed me to understand that their place in my photography is to give me a fun, mainly technical challenge that only requires minimal processing. This has made it easier to focus my serious photographic efforts on my expressive and more emotionally demanding landscape photographs, while still enjoying my bird photography.

EDIT

I can't say the discussion prompted by my post has gone exactly as I had hoped, and I am off to rethink how I might better explain things.

I still think that at it's core, my suggestion is an easily applied approach to stimulate thinking about the context of a photograph before moving on to further discussion and critique.

However, before I move on, I'd like to post definitions of two types of photography from Droj, from an unrelated thread, that could be used as rather more elegant alternatives to my functional and expressive categories:

"Some photographs are primarily of 'things' - they register (document) a person, a thing, a place, an object, an occurrence. They have a reporting function. This can be a valuable communication in the time that the image was made, and have a historical / social or other relevance too." as an alternative to functional


"The nature of some images is more in the realm of visual experience itself - a human / cultural expression. We have the frame, and within that the picture space which can be organised by the photographer to have a certain psychological resonance that might be recognised by others. Not in the somewhat wooden way of saying this is a such and such, but more in the way of direct, non-cerebral engagement." as an alternative to expressive.

The other possible way of thinking about the categories is John Szarkowski's Window and Mirror approach:

"The two photographers characterize opposite modes of the new photography, with its divergence between those who believe that art is a mirror, reflecting a portrait of the artist who made it, and those who see it as a window, through which one may better know the world."

From: his introduction to the catalogue for the 1978 MOMA exhibition "Mirrors and Windows: American photography since 1960"

I felt that my looser and less well defined functional and expressive categories could incorporate more refined and better defined characterisations such as these, and others, while at the same time having sufficient clarity of meaning. Maybe I was wrong.

There was some discussion later on in this thread (in response to questions from sirch) on how the functional/expressive categories might be used, and they might be a useful expansion to the examples given here. They are linked below:



Finally, I would like to emphasise that the use of the numbers is not to try and provide some sort of objective or quantifiable score, they are simply representing a ranking of how far away or how close you think a photograph might be from being entirely functional or entirely expressive. They are simply a shorthand way of saying something that would otherwise need several words.
 
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Thanks for showing a way to approach an image, and make some way to balance it's character.
Some intentions are more obvious than others, especially when viewing the image alone. I often find accompanying description to be helpful to describe the thought process, a bit like you would if presenting the image in person...although this would more describe the origins or initial intention, rather than just the final article,
 
Thanks for showing a way to approach an image, and make some way to balance it's character.
Some intentions are more obvious than others, especially when viewing the image alone. I often find accompanying description to be helpful to describe the thought process, a bit like you would if presenting the image in person...although this would more describe the origins or initial intention, rather than just the final article,
I think it depends a lot on the image. If I reuse the bird in flight example, the intent is usually fairly obvious, but with conceptual photography, for example, the intent is far more obscure and having some additional explanation can be crucial.
 
...it doesn't really matter as its just a way the forcing you into some structured thinking into understanding the purpose and intent of a photograph, and to help you offer appropriate and useful critique.
I can follow your reasoning but I can't say I agree with it.

So far as I'm concerned an image is either of use to a viewer or not. That usefulness may be emotional or technical. If it's emotional, we generally call it "art" and all we can really say is "I like it" or not. If it's technical, we can describe it as "documentary" and here the only values we can sensibly ascribe are "it shows the subject well" or not. The real problem though, is that many pictures will fit into both categories, depending on the viewer - who is always the final arbiter.

Art or documentary?

Swan taking off CAN_6112.jpg

Documentary or art?

English Electric Lightning at Yorkshire Air Museum P1220794.JPG
 
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Well this escalate quickly...although I do wonder if you're actually both saying the same thing.
 
Art or documentary?


View attachment 342232

Documentary or art?

View attachment 342233

Depends on the context. As seen here they're illustrations.

If it's technical, we can describe it as "documentary" and here the only values we can sensibly ascribe are "it shows the subject well" or not.

A documentary photography can be 'expressive' and 'art' as well as 'showing the subject well' - although it doesn't have to do that in the technically perfect sense. I would suggest that the best documentary photography does go beyond 'showing the subject well'.
 
Graham, you're thinking about it too much!! Photography is what it is, it is whatever the viewer thinks it is.
I think you've nailed it. :naughty:
 
I can follow your reasoning but I can't say I agree with it.

So far as I'm concerned an image is either of use to a viewer or not. That usefulness may be emotional or technical. If it's emotional, we generally call it "art" and all we can really say is "I like it" or not. If it's technical, we can describe it as "documentary" and here the only values we can sensibly ascribe are "it shows the subject well" or not. The real problem though, is that many pictures will fit into both categories, depending on the viewer - who is always the final arbiter.

Art or documentary?

View attachment 342232

Documentary or art?

View attachment 342233
I think we are back covering old ground here :)

You tend to see things in a rather binary manner, where I see everything in shades of grey.

It's very much because "the real problem though, is that many pictures will fit into both categories" that I find what I do as useful.
 
Graham, you're thinking about it too much!! Photography is what it is, it is whatever the viewer thinks it is.
I think too much about most things, but the science, statistics, history, psychology and philosophy of things is a large part of what makes them interesting to me.

EDIT: but then...

"This is a forum for people who like to chew the fat over more esoteric, artsy, philosophical, etc. concepts about photography as a visual medium. If you enjoy serious, deep and thoughtful discussion then if you set a watch on this forum you will be notified of new threads that might be of interest."

so maybe I'm in the right place :)
 
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A documentary photography can be 'expressive' and 'art' as well as 'showing the subject well' - although it doesn't have to do that in the technically perfect sense. I would suggest that the best documentary photography does go beyond 'showing the subject well'.
That's a big part of the reason behind the rationale of my suggested approach to help think about these things.
 
I think we are back covering old ground here :)
I'm not criticising, just offering a different and (possibly) equally valid opinion on the subject.

I think that Dave and Steve have done so as well.
 
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I'm not criticising, just offering a different and (possibly) equally valid opinion on the subject.

I think that Dave and Steve have done so as well.
Yes, sorry, I should have given a fuller response.

Photography is many different things to many different people, and the validity of different opinions will depend on circumstances.

I happen to enjoy academic analysis, discussion and debate on many subjects. And trying to ensure that everyone is arguing from the same starting point and using a similar reference framework is important.

As I said in my introductory lines, discussions on here sometimes (often) seem to go astray because everyone is starting from a different understanding of what a photograph is, and the expectations of what they want to get out of it, either as a viewer or as the photographer. And, this was partly the reason for my post: to try and facilitate better structured discussion.

There are some similarities to our approaches, you have two categories and you suggest some photographs might fall into both categories. I have two categories, but suggest that all photographs will have elements of both.

My functional category seems very close to your "technical" category where you can define what the value (function) is. I prefer my use of expressive over art, because the word art comes with a lot of baggage, and expressive photography is a term I've used for years, but again it is probably close to your use of art.

The core differences are that I'm not sure my approach has anything to do with assessing "usefulness" or value, I have assumed all photographs have elements of both categories. and I have a scoring system to encourage deeper thinking than might be applied without one. The actual scores may be irrelevant, but there is intellectual value in wrangling over whether a functional score of 6 or a 7 is a better match for a particular photograph.

Overall, I think, it seems that I see looking at, and making, photographs as intellectually more complex than you do.

If your approach works for you, and what I suggest offers nothing of value, that's fine, as is Steve's view of "Photography is what it is, it is whatever the viewer thinks it is", which has parallels to your own view. "So far as I'm concerned an image is either of use to a viewer or not".

However, both statements seem rather final and definitive, where as my framework is trying to facilitate structured debate and encourage nuanced and critical thinking.

BTW Dave hasn't commented.
 
Have you?

I read your comments to Andrew's post, but can't find any comment to mine :-(
Ah. I thought Andrew meant I had added a comment to the thread.
 
Ah. I thought Andrew meant I had added a comment to the thread.
Andrew said

"I'm not criticising, just offering a different and (possibly) equally valid opinion on the subject.

I think that Dave and Steve have done so as well."

Which I took to mean you and Steve had both offered opinions on my OP. But he did just say "I think"

I knew you had contributed to the thread cos I read everything you write :)
 
...I read everything you write :)
Foolish boy! :LOL:

I knew you had read my comment it because you 'liked' it. ;)

While it was a direct reply to Andrew it was also a contribution to the thread as a whole. :)
 
I would suggest that the best documentary photography does go beyond 'showing the subject well'.
I wanted to quote this because I think it's worth more than just a like but can't add to it. Is"+1" better?

In response to the OP, this reminded me of the 1st chapter in Fenninger's "The Complete Photographer" where he classifies photographers into categories. Whilst I agreed with the categories, I was resistant to photographers being put in them, and instead interpreted it as photographs going in categories. I think Graham's explanation is much better showing that a photographer can move around on the "functional/expressive" scale depending on many things. Of course, some photographers sit firmly in one place (crime scene photographers at work for example, or folks like Elliot Erwitt/Martin Parr at the other end) whilst others float around on it.

What interests me is whether the photographer does it before taking the picture, or when reviewing...
 
I wanted to quote this because I think it's worth more than just a like but can't add to it. Is"+1" better?

In response to the OP, this reminded me of the 1st chapter in Fenninger's "The Complete Photographer" where he classifies photographers into categories. Whilst I agreed with the categories, I was resistant to photographers being put in them, and instead interpreted it as photographs going in categories. I think Graham's explanation is much better showing that a photographer can move around on the "functional/expressive" scale depending on many things. Of course, some photographers sit firmly in one place (crime scene photographers at work for example, or folks like Elliot Erwitt/Martin Parr at the other end) whilst others float around on it.

What interests me is whether the photographer does it before taking the picture, or when reviewing...
On my original and much longer version of the OP, before drastic editing, I had an expanded comment on documentary photography with it floating around the middle scores ie between 4-6 functional and 4-6 expressive.

For your final question, I think I will fall back on the answers of "it depends" and "both"

Some (probably all) of my pictures may fail to score very high on the expressive scale (at review) even if that was the aspiration when I took them. But those same photographs might score high on the functional scale and work as, for example, a stock photo.

My BIF photographs are intended to score high on the functional scale, but there are occasions, when I'm out doing BIF photographs where I feel an opportunity arises to try and bump a particular photo up the expressive scale. Equally, I have some "mistakes" where a BIF image could end up with a higher expressive score than expected.

A non-bird example of this, which I suspect we might all have experienced, is when taking primarily functional photographs of flowers or trees, and you end up with an accidental "ICM" image that emotionally comes across as the best (most expressive) photo of the day.
 
I'm wondering if you have read any of what others have written on this? I guess you probably have but Paul Hill's Approaching Photography and David Bate's Photography: The Key Concepts are books that come to mind that set out categories of photography. Personally I find your categories too broad and for me a scoring system isn't very useful because it can never represent all the dimensions involved in the interation between a photographer, a subject, a photograph and a viewer, and for that matter the display format and the space in which it is viewed also have an impact
 
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I'm wondering if you have read any of what others have written on this? I guess you probably have but Paul Hill's Approaching Photography and David Bate's Photography: The Key Concepts are books that come to mind that set out categories of photography. Personally I find your categories too broad and for me a scoring system isn't very useful because it can never represent all the dimensions involved in the interation between a photographer, a subject, a photograph and a viewer, and for that matter the display format and the space in which it is viewed also have an impact
I've read Paul Hill's, but not David Bate's (its on my wish list). I agree that all the things you mention affect the way you look at and interact with a photograph, both as photographer and viewer, but maybe you are over estimating what I'm trying to do.

I chose functional and expressive because I wanted a simple and broad categorisation system that would hopefully cover all photographs, and give a tool to provide a common starting point and framework to facilitate discussion and thought.

I gave some bird examples, but I'll give another example triggered by something you mention and use a series of photographs showing faces with different skin conditions.

Your reaction to these photographs will be very different if you look at them in a medical text book, compared to looking at them in art gallery.

The discussion around the former is likely to be technical (an assumption of them being functional photographs) e.g how well have the correct colours been captured, is there sufficient detail to distinguish the different effect of skin structure between condition a and condition b. etc

Looking at the identical photographs in an art gallery will prompt a different discussion (an assumption they are expressive photographs) and the discussion is likely to be around the story behind the photographs, the people in them and probably the photographer who took them.

And, If, for example, instead of being identical, the images in the art gallery have the skin conditions blurry or in the shade and difficult to see, it could be reflecting the people in the pictures trying to hide the condition or it affecting them by making them ashamed by it. But you wouldn't make this same judgement if this was the way the pictures in the medical textbook were displayed.

The thing that originally pushed me down this route was because so much discussion and criticism around photographs and photography seemed to pay little attention to the intent and context of the photograph. And I thought this approach of combining these broad categorisations of function with expressiveness seemed a useful and simple way of helping to assess intent and context, before discussion and critique.

Although I could have left it as simply saying its important to decide how much of a photograph is functional and how much is expressive (I have assumed all photographs have element of both) I didn't, and I added the scoring system.

But the scoring system is only to encourage structured thinking and discussion. If you and I are both looking at a photograph we have been asked to critique and you give it a functional score of 6 (expressive score of 4) and I give it a functional score of 3 (expressive score of 7), we need to have a reasoned discussion around why we are looking at this photograph in such different ways. But the numbers aren't going to go anywhere, they are just a thinking tool. You don't even really need to use them.

But keen to hear on any expansion of your original points.
 
But the scoring system is only to encourage structured thinking and discussion.
Structured thinking, in my book, is good for I.T. projects or engineering but a definite no-no for anything to do with leisure. Of course, others have different approaches - some are even known to play chess as a hobby! :wideyed: :naughty:

In all seriousness, most people who are recording images are, according to one theory, using their "right brain" whereas someone programming or playing chess will be relying on their "left brain". I think your scoring system is attempting to use "left brain" thinking on a "right brain" activity.
 
Structured thinking, in my book, is good for I.T. projects or engineering but a definite no-no for anything to do with leisure.
You miss out science, statistics, philosophy and psychology from that list (my areas of interest), and whole lot more.

But I agree, if you are just doing something for leisure, there is no reason to bother about any of this and you can just get on with it.

But, the purpose of this forum is:

"This is a forum for people who like to chew the fat over more esoteric, artsy, philosophical, etc. concepts about photography as a visual medium. If you enjoy serious, deep and thoughtful discussion then if you set a watch on this forum you will be notified of new threads that might be of interest."

On tests I have done, I am apparently half right brain and half left brain, and I I am using my left brain thinking (my academic need to debate, understand and explain things) to look at photography as a combination of both left and right brain thinking and how much of each might be applied to any particular photograph.
 
You miss out science, statistics, philosophy and psychology from that list (my areas of interest), and whole lot more.
...but I am arguing from the particular to the general and assuming that the readers would understand that.

I aim to emulate Hank Cochran, of whom Jamey Johnson said "a man of very few words but certainly the words that he chose were the right words to use". ;)
 
...but I am arguing from the particular to the general and assuming that the readers would understand that.
Unfortunately, this doesn’t seem to enough of the right words for me to follow the argument you are making :)

I fear you will need to expand on what you mean by the particular and what you mean by the general in this instance.

As a generalisation, I tend to start from the general to define an initial scope for an issue, then dig into the detail (the particular), then use the detail to refine the scope (with several iterations), and then return to a newly defined general, so whatever it is being discussed can be easily understood without being bogged down by the detail or the particular.
 
Unfortunately, this doesn’t seem to enough of the right words for me to follow the argument you are making :)
Oh dear. I think I'll have to leave it as an excercise for the reader to assess the meaning of what I wrote. I fear that further verbiage will serve only to obscure, rather than clarify, my meaning... ;)
 
Oh dear. I think I'll have to leave it as an excercise for the reader to assess the meaning of what I wrote. I fear that further verbiage will serve only to obscure, rather than clarify, my meaning... ;)
OK, I will accept remaining in ignorance. Maybe it will suddenly come to me, or someone else will explain it to me.
 
But keen to hear on any expansion of your original points.
The context in which we are asked for feedback or critique is surely relevant. A photo might have been taken for a client, say for a wedding and even though the client was happy the photographer might not be and want input on how to improve. Sticking with weddings often photographers are chosen by the happy couple because of the photographers style so the photographs are driven by the photographer and express the photographers vision but they are serving the function of being wedding photos and the photographer is just doing a job, the photographer might prefer to take photos of other subjects if they could make money from it. There are even documentary style wedding photographers.

A photograph can be re-purposed, a lot od Don Mccullin's photos best known photos were shot when he was a war reporter so they were for newspaper reports but a few years ago they were exhibitied at the Tate. Functional or expressive?

Personally if I was giving crit and was unsure of the intent of the photographer I would simply ask rather than trying to guess or if I was unable to ask then I would state any assumptions I was making.
 
I think may be this expresses something similar to what you driving at but for me is nearer the mark

There are so many possible strands that can be woven into a photograph - not necessarily all at once! But it seems clear from their output that many a practitioner's first interest is owning and playing with equipment. Let's put that motive aside - it's not central to the topic.

Inescapably photography is a visual medium - its language - its interface - is in the visual realm. There's a craft in presenting visual information that can apply to all photography.

A mere excercise in aesthetics, though, can be hollow of much meaning - and it's meaning that makes an image (or body of images) worthwhile.

Some photographs are primarily of 'things' - they register (document) a person, a thing, a place, an object, an occurrence. They have a reporting function. This can be a valuable communication in the time that the image was made, and have a historical / social or other relevance too.

The nature of some images is more in the realm of visual experience itself - a human / cultural expression. We have the frame, and within that the picture space which can be organised by the photographer to have a certain psychological resonance that might be recognised by others. Not in the somewhat wooden way of saying this is a such and such, but more in the way of direct, non-cerebral engagement.

Ring any bells?
 
The context in which we are asked for feedback or critique is surely relevant.
I'm obviously, explaining this very badly, as this is the reason I am suggesting the need to think about the functional/expressive intent of a photograph. It's meant to provide a simple summary to help explain how we are look at the photograph.
A photo might have been taken for a client, say for a wedding and even though the client was happy the photographer might not be and want input on how to improve. Sticking with weddings often photographers are chosen by the happy couple because of the photographers style so the photographs are driven by the photographer and express the photographers vision but they are serving the function of being wedding photos and the photographer is just doing a job, the photographer might prefer to take photos of other subjects if they could make money from it. There are even documentary style wedding photographers.
But if you were discussing or critiquing the photographs of these two photographers it would be important to realise that for the former, their photographs are as much expressive as they are functional, but for the latter they are largely functional.
A photograph can be re-purposed, a lot od Don Mccullin's photos best known photos were shot when he was a war reporter so they were for newspaper reports but a few years ago they were exhibitied at the Tate. Functional or expressive?
The photograph doesn't change, it's the way of thinking about it that changes.

My OP suggested that documentary photography "...seemed to clearly contain large elements of both functional and expressive photography," And later I suggested most good documentary photographs might have a functional score of between 4 to 6, and an expressive score of between 4 to 6, but as I've said the actual numbers are irrelevant, they are just there to facilitate thinking, and to allow everyone to know the starting point from where any critique or discussion is coming from.

I believe that "good" documentary photographers do far more than just "recording" the scene (the functional component) but are also about capturing the emotion of the scene (expressive).

The newspaper editor will be interested in both, with possibly an emphasis on the functional (i.e the subject in the photograph, where a recognisable landmark in the photograph might be important). When displayed in the Tate, the focus will be more on the expressive side of the photograph, as well as the photographer (ie how the photographer has captured the emotions of the scenes).

Where the photograph is displayed doesn't necessarily change it's function/expressive balance but it affect what elements are the more relevant and on how we look at, interact, discuss, and critique it. e.g. In the Tate we may well "only" discuss the expressive component. Having said that, if you see a photograph for the first time in the Tate, this would be part of the context you would use to help decide on how much of a photograph might be functional and how much expressive.

Personally if I was giving crit and was unsure of the intent of the photographer I would simply ask rather than trying to guess
Most of the time you probably can't discuss the photograph with the photographer (they might be dead!), but there are several ways that you can get a good idea of the photographers intent even, if you can't speak to them. Although in a different context, I listed some here , and this can all be part of deciding how much of a photograph is likely to be functional and how much is likely to be expressive.

or if I was unable to ask then I would state any assumptions I was making.
Exactly, and the functional/expressive approach is meant to offer a tool that provides a framework to help arrive at, explain and discuss those assumptions.

Even though the numbers don't have any absolute meaning, they are still a useful way of expressing and facilitating discussion about this assumption.

If you (and I'm not seriously suggesting you do this) say in advance of a critique that you have decided on a starting point of a functional score of 3 and an expressive score of 7, I have a very clear idea of where your critique is coming from and of how you viewed and assessed the photograph.

It also gives a framework for me to disagree e.g. I might think it has a functional score of 6, which then gives something very focussed to discuss ie why are those two scores so far apart. The value of this however, is that framing the discussion around actual scores, may allow a better understanding of different positions than simply saying "I think this photograph is more functional than you do"
 
I think may be this expresses something similar to what you driving at but for me is nearer the mark
Ye I read that, and it did ring some bells for me.

Because, for me, I think

"Some photographs are primarily of 'things' - they register (document) a person, a thing, a place, an object, an occurrence. They have a reporting function. This can be a valuable communication in the time that the image was made, and have a historical / social or other relevance too."

Matches my functional, subject driven, externally driven, photography definition, and.

"The nature of some images is more in the realm of visual experience itself - a human / cultural expression. We have the frame, and within that the picture space which can be organised by the photographer to have a certain psychological resonance that might be recognised by others. Not in the somewhat wooden way of saying this is a such and such, but more in the way of direct, non-cerebral engagement."

matches my expressive, photographer driven, internally driven, photography definition.

I admit, it's more elegantly described, but it seems to be the same thing to me, but I have just suggested that all photographs have a component of both these characterisations.
 
The value of this however, is that framing the discussion around actual scores, may allow a better understanding of different positions than simply saying "I think this photograph is more functional than you do"
I can't see how putting arbitrary numbers to things is any different to "I like this picture" or "I don't this picture". I've emphasised the word "arbitrary" because there is not and cannot be an absolute scale from which the numbers are taken.

Terry Pratchett explored this very problem, albeit humourously, in "Thief of Time", where he described a group of "Auditors" reducing a painting to its component parts of pigments, cloth and wood, in a vain attempt to understand why it was considered a "great work of art". Pratchett shows us that analysing art (in this case literally) destroys that art.

It's also a good example of "in risus veritas".
 
I can't see how putting arbitrary numbers to things is any different to "I like this picture" or "I don't this picture". I've emphasised the word "arbitrary" because there is not and cannot be an absolute scale from which the numbers are taken.
Using relative scales to measure and turn subjective measures into pseudo objective ones is the basis of vast amounts of science. It provides a framework for debate and gives data that can be analysed.

From a scientific/statistical point of view you would need the subjective views from many people before it became scientifically useful.

As an example, if Ford were trying to decide what proportion of cars they made in what colours, they could take a random sample from their target customer base and show them a range of colours.

For each colour they would be asked to give a score between 0 and 9. 0 = "I would never buy a car this colour", and 9 = "I would kill to own a car this colour". There may be additional help by giving verbal descriptions of the in between scores, e.g a score of 5 might equal "I wouldn't choose this colour, but I wouldn't object to it".

From those results, Ford might then decide to maximise production of colours that had scores around the 5 mark, charge a premium for those with scores around the 8 and 9 mark, and not produce any cars with colours that got scores around the 0 and 1 marks.

Other examples include the way manufacturers decide how much salt or sugar to put in their products, and there is specialist area of sensory statistics behind the analysis and methodologies. Many behavioural/psychological studies follow similar approaches.

And, you could do the same with "like this picture" "dislike this picture" if you were selling "art" or deciding on what pictures to put into a calendar, or which pictures would attract the greatest number of favourable responses in an advertising campaign etc.

With my functional/expressive approach, the numbers just allow you to say that you think this picture has more of an expressive purpose than a functional one, or whatever. The numbers are only a shorthand for a longer verbal description.

A functional score of 9 means you think the photograph is pretty well all functional,

A functional score of 1 means you think it's pretty well all expressive.

A functional score of 5 means you think the photograph is half functional and half expressive.

A functional score of 3 means you think its mainly functional

etc etc

But as I say its just a shorthand way of sharing views and facilitating debate, because it indicates where you think a photographs sits along a scale that runs from functional to expressive.

If you undertaking a psychological study behind how people perceived photographs, you could use this approach as the basis for more serious study, but, as proposed it's primarily aimed to make people "think" more deeply about where a picture might lie on this functional/expressive scale and facilitate discussion.
 
as proposed it's primarily aimed to make people "think" more deeply about where a picture might lie on this functional/expressive scale and facilitate discussion.
The more you write about this the greater my doubts become. It seems like an excercise in pseudo science, just like Terry Pratchett's amusing parable with the "Auditors" and the painting.
 
The more you write about this the greater my doubts become. It seems like an excercise in pseudo science, just like Terry Pratchett's amusing parable with the "Auditors" and the painting.
Not sure how to answer this.

There is no science or pseudo science needed to think about how much of a photograph is functional and how much of it is expressive.

Even though you might gather some evidence to help make that decision e.g. by listening to the photographer explain the reason for taking it, I can't see how its anything other than a fundamentally subjective process.

Where does the pseudo-science come from?
 
I have assumed this thread is now dead, but for the benefit of anyone coming to the thread in the future I have added an edit to my OP (at the end) that tries to take on board some of the points raised in the thread, and links to a couple of specific posts in the thread.

I'm off to rethink what I wrote, but won't re-post a revised version here, unless years have gone by.

I still think that trying to put a photographs into context before reviewing or critiquing them, is important. And that trying to place a photograph on a scale between a more objective approach at one end and a more subjective approach at the other is a good starting point e.g. my functional vs expressive (or something similar).

However, some of the comments have had make it clear I need to think about this more and explain the whole thing far better than I have. This will need to be longer than my OP, and much longer than I thought appropriate for this forum when I originally wrote it.
 
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