What no jeremy cobyn thread?

er, what!?? When you see billions it IS a BIG problem! How is it otherwise?!? It doesn't matter that it represents 5% - it is a shocking amount of money when the Tory government are making £12bn of 'necessary cuts' in the name of austerity that will force more and more of your fellow citizens towards food banks and poverty.

If a shop loses 5% of it's profits through shoplifting, they will almost certainly see it as a big issue regardless of the amount of money it is...

And regarding the 'we all know people fiddling benefits' statement earlier. As I said, I don't. But I do know people who do everything in their power to fiddle their taxes.
Have you ever run a business? There is a cost to doing business, be it a burden of compliance, be it a write down on theft, returns etc. Is it worth while chasing it down to close down the number? Well dependent on hard facts and financial calculations. Heck one organisation I know off got a lot of £30 cheque payments, in order to process them with everything involved it costs them a stupid £70. So don't cash them, burn them, loose that income stream and you've just saved yourself £40 for one of them ;) Or another way of looking at it is to review why it costs so much to process and reduce that cost to such a level that it actually makes sense to accept these payments.
 
Hmm, interesting. The article I'd read from what usually is a very good site never mentioned the court of appeal. (Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/18/once_more_into_the_tax_breach_dear_friends/)

Even with that in mind it still seems that the £6billion is an urban myth made up by the press.

I guess it just goes to show how complex it all is for even the professionals to understand so for the rest of us it's practically impossible.

The original article from private eye where the £6 billion came from I have quoted below (and I would suggest that private eye is a lot more authoritative a source than the register!)

BRITAIN’S £6BN VODAFONE BILL

From 'Private Eye'

WHEN Vodafone bought German engineering company Mannesmann a decade ago for €180bn, it desperately wanted to use the mother of all tax avoidance schemes so taxpayers would subsidise what turned out to be a massively over-priced mistake. The plan was to route the acquisition through an offshore company.

This, however, would potentially fall foul of British anti-tax avoidance laws, and when the company asked the then Inland Revenue to clear the arrangement, it duly refused. Vodafone went ahead anyway and bought Mannesmann using a Luxembourg subsidiary company called Vodafone Investments Luxembourg sarl (VIL), in which it would go on to dump vast profits taxed at less than 1 percent.
An epic legal battle began, with Vodafone resisting the taxman’s efforts to get all the information on the deal and arguing through the courts that the British laws striking out the tax benefits of its deal were neutered by European law which granted, Vodafone claimed, the freedom to establish anywhere in the EU (including its dodgiest tax havens) without facing a tax bill.
VIL’s accounts show that, up to March 2009, €15.5bn income was stuffed into the company, suggesting it is now heading to the €18bn mark and resulting in £5bn in lost tax and interest so far. But, armed with strong advice from eminent legal counsel, tax inspectors were confident they could win the cash back, not least because until 2004 the scam was run through the Luxembourg company’s Swiss branch. This of course was not even in the EU (although that year Luxembourg changed its own rules to allow the trick to work without inconveniencing tax avoiders with the need for an Alpine branch).
A less ‘black and white view of the law’
Officials were further emboldened last year when the court of appeal ruled that British laws striking out the avoidance scheme could conform with European laws. But they reckoned without HM Revenue & Customs’ (HMRC) “permanent secretary for tax”, Dave Hartnett, and his customer-friendly approach to big multinationals.
Despite HMRC’s victories, Hartnett moved the case from his specialists and lawyers – dismissed in recent comments to the FT as “very intelligent people” suffering from “a black and white view of the law” – to a dimmer but more amenable group to negotiate with Vodafone’s head of tax, John Connors, who until 2007 was a senior official at HMRC working closely with Hartnett on handling big business.
The fruits of these talks, conducted without consulting HMRC’s litigators and specialists in the tax law concerned on the chance of success in the courts, was a bill for Vodafone of £800m, with another £450m payable over five years and, remarkably, an agreement that the arrangement can carry on into the future with a promise of no challenge from HMRC. The Eye understands that the settlement also swept up several other Vodafone tax avoidance schemes.
More sweetheart deals to come
The bill for all other taxpayers in lost tax is likely to be at least £6bn. Resentment within the HMRC ranks is high and one former official familiar with the case described it as an “unbelievable cave-in”. But there is no means for the deal to be audited: the National Audit Office refuses to look at specific cases.
Hartnett’s comments to the FT signal more sweetheart deals to come. The “conciliatory” approach can be presented as an urgent cash-gathering exercise, but in practice it encourages tax avoidance and sells other taxpayers well-short. It also masks the fact that staff cuts at HMRC are destroying its abilities to fight tax avoidance. Spending on the activity has already fallen from £3.6bn in 2006/07 to £1.9bn, with more cuts to come, prompting the association of senior Revenue officials to compare the government to “a drowning man who decides to throw off his life jacket, because it weighs too much”. How fortunate then that under HMRC’s reporting practices the Vodafone settlement will count as a £1.25bn success in the fight to close the “tax gap”, rather than a £6bn gift to a large phone company.
PS: The Tories have further cause to thank Mr Hartnett. As Eye 1136 revealed five years ago, government cuts adviser Philip Green had personal discussions with Hartnett over his tax affairs while legal battles raged over schemes for husbands and wives to share their income for tax purposes. Dividends from Green’s businesses continue to be paid to trusts controlled by his Monaco-resident wife Tina, undisturbed by the taxman.
 
Tax avoidance purely for the intent of avoiding tax with no other purpose is already covered in the law and is tax evasion.
That's completely wrong.
Anti-avoidance measures in law strike out the tax benefit but don't criminalise the behaviour.
 
I don't think percentages like 95 or 99 can be deemed a blank good or not. The higher you tend to get the bigger the investment will be required, and the more bureaucratic it will become for call with all sorts of increased compliance cost.

I remember when I was working with one of them in the compliance teams, and one of the personas is those that are willful uncompliant. No matter what you do they'll find a way.

Is it truly worth it to hunt down every single one? Morally perhaps yes, but does it make financial sense and can you do it without affecting the vast majority who are compliant and perhaps just uninformed? I doubt it.

My gut feel tells me that 99% comes with too much cost associated to it.

My gut tells me that 99% doesn't come at a restrictive cost, It's close to what is currently achieved in benefits with 10x the manpower used in tax fraud, if that's cost effective for the relatively small amount in benefit fraud, significantly increasing the number of tax investigators has to be worthwhile.

But as I said earlier, there's no political gain to be had, the roadmap is set, successive governments have managed to turn public opinion against benefit claimants (even amongst benefit claimants) and we need to remember that it's 'successful' people who are fiddling their taxes, why would we punish them?
 
If you were looking at this as a business and you wanted to 'make cuts', you'd look at the areas to invest in which would enable savings, and investing in any part that increased revenue*, then make your cuts in the other parts.
Hmmm. That sounds to me like you would welcome privatisation of HMRC.

:)
 
Hmmm. That sounds to me like you would welcome privatisation of HMRC.

:D
I don't even see the funny side of that, I find it ironic that the government constantly make sweeping generalisations about the running of various government departments, but they are ideologically driven and don't have the acumen to understand how to balance the books. And that's governments of all colours over the last 30+ years.

You wouldn't dream of making cuts by cutting down the number of invoices you send out would you?

And I'm sure your growth owes more to investment in products than it does to 'cutbacks'.

The 'privatisation' myth really ought to have had it's day, no-one any longer expects a privatised public service to be cheaper or better run (too much evidence to the contrary), but ideologically we just keep doing it because small government is an aim.:thinking:
 
That's completely wrong.
Anti-avoidance measures in law strike out the tax benefit but don't criminalise the behaviour.
Sorry yes you are correct, it's tax law (if that is the right term, not necessarily criminal law, but unless I'm mistaken can lead to it.
 
Have you ever run a business? There is a cost to doing business, be it a burden of compliance, be it a write down on theft, returns etc. Is it worth while chasing it down to close down the number? Well dependent on hard facts and financial calculations. Heck one organisation I know off got a lot of £30 cheque payments, in order to process them with everything involved it costs them a stupid £70. So don't cash them, burn them, loose that income stream and you've just saved yourself £40 for one of them ;) Or another way of looking at it is to review why it costs so much to process and reduce that cost to such a level that it actually makes sense to accept these payments.

I run my own business, thanks. Your anecdote isn't applicable to all cases. Benefit loss is 2% and as said elsewhere in the thread there is much more investment in hunting down benefit fraud. The government spends over £300m a year doing so. If they spent a similar amount and managed to push their tax deficit to just 2% then they will have saved the economy at least £15-20bn. The thing with tax dodging is that it's often a large numbers game - catching out someone for benefit fraud can save hundreds or (less often) thousands of pounds, catching just one person out on tax fraud can result in tens of thousands to even millions of pounds.
 
But we all know someone who is claiming benefits who probably shouldn't be.
Actually I do, someone I worked with, albeit a few years ago now, so I would hope the system has changed somewhat.
He was caught twice, (by his own admission ), and both times told not to do it again, for fear of custodial,
he was still was still "at it" when he told me this.
Hopefully he was caught again, and the sentence was actually carried out.
 
Just heard on the news that the Government has granted Tax relief at 25% on film and TV companies, so they can make more "Negative films portraying benefits cheats" with Tax relief on the whole cost of production. Get In! Thought it was applicable to the thread.
 
Just heard on the news that the Government has granted Tax relief at 25% on film and TV companies, so they can make more "Negative films portraying benefits cheats" with Tax relief on the whole cost of production. Get In! Thought it was applicable to the thread.

I for one am fed up to the back teeth of seeing these programmes made as a form of "entertainment" How many more "benefit scroungers" can they find to demonise? I find it so very sad that so many people can be used in this way and a huge audience view it as entertainment. Sadly the people being exploited in this way can't see it. I suppose the desired response is being achieved, the wider population viewing anyone with suspicion and contempt if they happen to be in receipt of any type of benefits.

I have no problem with actual benefit cheats losing entitlement and facing prosecution, but I do have a problem seeing sick, disabled, vulnerable people being hounded and living in fear. I personally don't know anyone claiming benefits who shouldn't be but I do know many who are continually assessed and reassessed to prove they are ill and being terrified by the tactics used to facilitate this.

There for the grace of God.
 
I run my own business, thanks. Your anecdote isn't applicable to all cases. Benefit loss is 2% and as said elsewhere in the thread there is much more investment in hunting down benefit fraud. The government spends over £300m a year doing so. If they spent a similar amount and managed to push their tax deficit to just 2% then they will have saved the economy at least £15-20bn. The thing with tax dodging is that it's often a large numbers game - catching out someone for benefit fraud can save hundreds or (less often) thousands of pounds, catching just one person out on tax fraud can result in tens of thousands to even millions of pounds.
Ok, large corporate business, wedding photography isn't really comparable in that same sense as even a small corner shop would be. Of-course an anecdote isn't applicable to all cases, that is why it is an anecdote, luckily there are some people who question these daft practises and do something about it. Unfortunately often there aren't those who think about the bigger picture and costs involved.

One of the challenge that is here is right at the core of the design. One is a revenue collection, and the other is payment. The organisations are very different, get different funding, have different legislation to comply with. Further more there is very limited legal data sharing. This is a huge machine, together with other departments that is very slow to move, and slow to change the law.

But either way (collection and payment), the intention was for it to be there for us. In my opinion it is too big, too complex, it requires too much income (tax) to keep running, and on top it doesn't actually deliver the benefits of a safety net, nor protection that is required. Lifetime dependency on the system be it a person or a legal entity needs to be reduced to make it useful. More personal responsibility should be established such that the services where it is impossible for individuals to deal with it themselves can be significantly increased.

Ultimately I belief in a state that has a much smaller administration, with much less interference in peoples own affairs, and where people get to keep the vast majority of what they work for and we only look after those for a time limited period to help them become independent again.
 
Ok, large corporate business, wedding photography isn't really comparable in that same sense as even a small corner shop would be. Of-course an anecdote isn't applicable to all cases, that is why it is an anecdote, luckily there are some people who question these daft practises and do something about it. Unfortunately often there aren't those who think about the bigger picture and costs involved.

One of the challenge that is here is right at the core of the design. One is a revenue collection, and the other is payment. The organisations are very different, get different funding, have different legislation to comply with. Further more there is very limited legal data sharing. This is a huge machine, together with other departments that is very slow to move, and slow to change the law.

But either way (collection and payment), the intention was for it to be there for us. In my opinion it is too big, too complex, it requires too much income (tax) to keep running, and on top it doesn't actually deliver the benefits of a safety net, nor protection that is required. Lifetime dependency on the system be it a person or a legal entity needs to be reduced to make it useful. More personal responsibility should be established such that the services where it is impossible for individuals to deal with it themselves can be significantly increased.

Ultimately I belief in a state that has a much smaller administration, with much less interference in peoples own affairs, and where people get to keep the vast majority of what they work for and we only look after those for a time limited period to help them become independent again.
Much truth, but obviously there's bits where we're fundamentally different.

Why are businesses given 10 months to prepare a tax return? Everyone uses computers nowadays, the level of financial information required for a tax return should be available instantly for most companies (most companies would be running those kinds of reports on a monthly basis at least).

BTW there's a huge amount of automation in the PAYE system nowadays, the vast majority of employees data is available to HMRC at a detailed level in real time. They've also made it much easier for everyone else to self report earnings too, this really ought to leave their staff looking at compliance, rather than trying to work out what the new information means to their old ways of working. This doesn't appear to be the case though.

As far as welfare provision goes, the leaps forward in the new benefits are really revolutionary, and when they're fully embedded you'll see a vastly different benefits landscape. However that doesn't address the fact that fundamentally there's not enough thought behind how society should 'work' with piecemeal 'free market' measures being allowed to skew the system, there are many 'winners' both rich and poor from the current kludge but the loser is a society that has no clear purpose.
 
I agree with that :)
 
"Corbyn is anti-EU too. Looks like we'll be leaving."

I don't think Corbyn has said that. I believe he said overall he could see benefits to being part of the EU, but that aspects of it were of concern and may need renegotiating.

My personal (optimistic) interpretation of that is that more things in the EU need to be democratic instead of unelected people being parachuted into cushy jobs. The EU was supposed to be democratic and equal yet it appears to be ruled almost entirely by Germany and to a lesser extent by France (unless our press misrepresents this). I can't remember the last time another country seemed to have a significant say or impact on EU policy, other than the plight of a very bullied Greece being reported.

There is also stuff like TTIP which will cripple what socialists can do to help their own people as its a very pro capitalist pro big business / big profit agreement. If the EU signs up, lots of things beneficial to the UK population will become open to challenge in court by foreign (inc non EU) companies, mostly from the USA. It is a threat to our health care for example. I gather the TTIP treaty was intended to be signed without publicity, so that the UK and populations of other EU countries would be trapped in the agreement by the rulers of the EU (how many of us could name some of them?), never having known it was agreed until it was too late to escape from. This is not democratic, it is undermining the rights of EU citizens for self determination, for views as individual people.

I can see things that need to change in the EU. If there is no room for open inclusive democracy or negotiation it only leaves looking at the ultimate option of leaving. That does not mean he is keen to leave or sees that as a target to aim for.
 
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I take it you mean TTIP?
Terrible idea that a multinational could sue the UK government if it thought its policies were hurting profits.
 
Yep. If you think my spelling recall is bad, you should see me trying to remember multiplication tables - run, hide! :)

I have just gone back and corrected my spellings, thanks for mentioning them. I could employ you full time on this!
 
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I take it you mean TTIP?
Terrible idea that a multinational could sue the UK government if it thought its policies were hurting profits.
That has to be a joke? Where is the sense in that?

I guess Germany should have more say as they pay more in. I don't think they bullied Greece. Greece tried to bully the EU. They borrowed money and need to pay it back. They wanted to receive more too!!! But like me not paying a loan back to nat west then wanting them to lend me more money without changing my habits and then having confidence in me paying it back.
 
And why is the isds clause in ttip a big issue? I mean if I want to invest somewhere I want to make certain I can protect my investment and not have that just overturned without compensation for the losses.
 
And why is the isds clause in ttip a big issue? I mean if I want to invest somewhere I want to make certain I can protect my investment and not have that just overturned without compensation for the losses.

Because the democratic will of the people should trump any business interests. Can you not see the implications of what that could lead to? The democratic will of the people could be overthrown by the power of the multinationals. We already have far too much influence on politics from the multinationals, thats one of the reasons both of the main uk political parties in the uk are so homogeneous.
 
Because the democratic will of the people should trump any business interests. Can you not see the implications of what that could lead to? The democratic will of the people could be overthrown by the power of the multinationals. We already have far too much influence on politics from the multinationals, thats one of the reasons both of the main uk political parties in the uk are so homogeneous.
Well shouldn't that be done before the investment is made and accepted by the democratic will of the people?
 
Well shouldn't that be done before the investment is made and accepted by the democratic will of the people?
So, what you are saying is that we have to tie future generations to our political choices? Hmm no problems with that that I can see ;)
 
So, what you are saying is that we have to tie future generations to our political choices? Hmm no problems with that that I can see ;)
No not at all, what I am saying is that we have to deal with the consequences. If you accepted the investment at one point, and then change you mind and want to go in a different direction than that is going to affect people and legal entities. That is fine, but it will come at a cost to compensate for the investment people and corporations made to your previous idea. Surely that is reasonable?
 
No not at all, what I am saying is that we have to deal with the consequences. If you accepted the investment at one point, and then change you mind and want to go in a different direction than that is going to affect people and legal entities. That is fine, but it will come at a cost to compensate for the investment people and corporations made to your previous idea. Surely that is reasonable?
Except its not the normal people who accepts the investment but our political leaders. If you compound that with the fact that 76% of the eligible electorate didn't vote for this government, then its difficult to understand exactly who is accountable.
 
No not at all, what I am saying is that we have to deal with the consequences. If you accepted the investment at one point, and then change you mind and want to go in a different direction than that is going to affect people and legal entities. That is fine, but it will come at a cost to compensate for the investment people and corporations made to your previous idea. Surely that is reasonable?
No, it's an appalling perversion of the fundamental rule that earlier governments cannot bind later ones.
The UK parliament must be free to - for example - change corporate or employment tax rates without having to compensate every foreign entity operating in the country.

Businesses accept the risk of legislative change when they invest (both in their own country and overseas) and it is factored into their risk analysis. It's never prevented investment before.
The next EU president should wipe his arse on TTIP and hand it back to the US ambassador.
 
Except its not the normal people who accepts the investment but our political leaders. If you compound that with the fact that 76% of the eligible electorate didn't vote for this government, then its difficult to understand exactly who is accountable.
They all had a chance to vote differently, and not just that they also had a chance to vote for a different voting system.
 
No, it's an appalling perversion of the fundamental rule that earlier governments cannot bind later ones.
The UK parliament must be free to - for example - change corporate or employment tax rates without having to compensate every foreign entity operating in the country.

Businesses accept the risk of legislative change when they invest (both in their own country and overseas) and it is factored into their risk analysis. It's never prevented investment before.
The next EU president should wipe his arse on TTIP and hand it back to the US ambassador.
And this is where I think it is time for a chance. The world has changed, much more international for people and legal entities. Much better if we move to a more flexible system where the terms and conditions are upheld at the point in time they were agreed. Doesn't mean they can't change over time, but the existing ones should be upheld.

Take child benefit. I would stop it in ten months time. Fulfil the commitment to the existing people and once the last child is of age it stops for everyone. Absolutely fair. And those who don't have children yet know exactly that they aren't going to get it either. So simple. Why not just have more unique stimulants and stop interfering with everything.
 
And this is where I think it is time for a chance. The world has changed, much more international for people and legal entities. Much better if we move to a more flexible system where the terms and conditions are upheld at the point in time they were agreed. Doesn't mean they can't change over time, but the existing ones should be upheld.

Take child benefit. I would stop it in ten months time. Fulfil the commitment to the existing people and once the last child is of age it stops for everyone. Absolutely fair. And those who don't have children yet know exactly that they aren't going to get it either. So simple. Why not just have more unique stimulants and stop interfering with everything.
The market in itself is an unequal entity by its very nature. Government intervention is not an act of compassion or philanthropy but one of survival, no benefits or support for the less well off and the system would have crashed years ago.
 
The market in itself is an unequal entity by its very nature. Government intervention is not an act of compassion or philanthropy but one of survival, no benefits or support for the less well off and the system would have crashed years ago.
Where did I say there shouldn't be benefits? But ultimately you don't know either way. Perhaps people would pay stupid amounts for housing and drive the price up. Who knows, until it changes we will never know.
 
And this is where I think it is time for a chance. The world has changed, much more international for people and legal entities. Much better if we move to a more flexible system where the terms and conditions are upheld at the point in time they were agreed. Doesn't mean they can't change over time, but the existing ones should be upheld.

Take child benefit. I would stop it in ten months time. Fulfil the commitment to the existing people and once the last child is of age it stops for everyone. Absolutely fair. And those who don't have children yet know exactly that they aren't going to get it either. So simple. Why not just have more unique stimulants and stop interfering with everything.

What benefit is there for the typical UK voter / taxpayer for signing up to the TTIP? The UK doesn't have any problem attracting investment, so that can't be an argument. What else?
 
What benefit is there for the typical UK voter / taxpayer for signing up to the TTIP? The UK doesn't have any problem attracting investment, so that can't be an argument. What else?
The same benefit as with many other trade deals. Or on a local level with procurement frameworks.

I'm not convinced there is, however my points were against the dispute clause which many seems to get so worked up about. To me not agreeing to ensure that those who want to invest can get their investment is what I don't think is good.
 
Much better if we move to a more flexible system where the terms and conditions are upheld at the point in time they were agreed. Doesn't mean they can't change over time, but the existing ones should be upheld.
That sounds terrible. It would lead to governments to need to move tax rates widely, resulting in a hugely uneven playing field between different companies, dependant on when they invested.
It would also allow larger companies to negotiate better rates, skewing the market by rigging the market against start-ups. Tax avoidance would be rife as companies who invested at a 'bad' time would acquire other companies purely to get access to their tax rate.
And it would run a coach and horses through transparency as tax rates would be set in private meetings, like in dodgy Luxembourg.
 
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