White balance question - using flash with ambient

Morbid said:
Thanks for the info Phil, the EX was a pressie from the other half so can't sell it. Will use one flash for now and add another YN600 when funds allow (and I've got the hang of using one!).
Click to expand...
If you sell your EX, will she become your ex? :)
 
CraigDHD said:
When you're shooting shallow depth of field/longish exposure portraits like this, rear curtain is usually a bad idea as any movement from you or subject during exposure will cause the captured shot to be out of focus


This would make me think the flash is definitely not firing as at iso 1250 and I'm guessing around f2 a flash that close at over half power I'd expect the subject to be seriously overexposed?

You should really be able to drop the iso and shutter a bit if you get the issues sorted with the flash. Here's a couple of out-takes from last year and year before, not saying they're the best images ever, but pretty much sooc for an idea. Flash powers are a bit guessy as from memory but both lit with single yn-560 with a rosco cto gel in a 60inch umbrella. Still need to shoot a christmas photo for this year

_DSC9831.jpg

d700, 50mm @ 1.8, iso 200, shutter 1/60, flash around 1/8

_D701904.jpg

d7000, 50mm @1.8, iso 800, shutter 1/20, flash around 1/32, background is a bit blown on this one and guessing my white balance was auto as YELLOW!


I'm not familiar with the canon system but if you're struggling to get the commander mode working and using manual on flash you could try setting it just to optical slave and set your on camera flash to min power with a wee bounce card to keep it off the subject to trigger it.
Click to expand...

Thanks Craig - I think the same now (it didn't fire or didn't fire correctly). One shot was completely blown out, of the 30 or so taken on Sunday - I guess it did fire on that one :thinking:, and that one only. Radio trigger is on order so I'm looking forward to having another go at this on Sunday. Hopefully that'll sort out the technical side.
 
Last edited:
Morbid said:
Thanks for the info Phil, the EX was a pressie from the other half so can't sell it. Will use one flash for now and add another YN600 when funds allow (and I've got the hang of using one!).
Click to expand...
The 430ex is a great size for on camera use - keep it for that - or buy a YN E3 RX, to use it with your YN E3TX
 
Phil V said:
The 430ex is a great size for on camera use - keep it for that - or buy a YN E3 RX, to use it with your YN E3TX
Click to expand...

Agree - the YN600 is noticeably heavier, and after a couple of hours you feel like you've had a work out with a 24-70 attached too.

Phil V said:
Page 20 of your manual tells you how to set the flash to non radio, optical wireless mode.
Click to expand...

Missed this earlier. I have had this set up and working before, photo proof below to prove I'm not a complete idiot (partial idiot...probably!)

IMG_1568 by Ian Bradshaw, on Flickr
 
Thanks for all the help folks, I had another try tonight and the flash is firing, and I covered the pop up flash (wrapped it in kitchen roll as that was nearby as we were in the kitchen!) and can clearly see now the negative impact the pop up flash is having on the shots even when the main flash fires. They were only of Finley in his high chair watching Peppa Pig on an iPhone, so no prize winning shots, but there's a clear difference. Will pop some pics up later.

The radio trigger will be kept when it arrives as I'm sure this will be more reliable and look neater than a wrapped up pop up flash.

One thought I had about it not firing before was if the AF assist beam in the low light was setting the flash off? So it was firing with that and not the beam from the pop up (as it was still recycling) and my eye couldn't pick this up?
 
Last edited:
Morbid said:
OK, I'll bite...

Tell you what David, I'll give Dr Who a call and get him to pick you up. You can pop round to visit last Sunday and watch me take the shots of a very active 19 month old and all that entails in just getting him to sit still for a second. You can then look at the flash on the tripod in the position stated above, with the shoot through umbrella in place and then between you and the Dr (he's even cleverer than you) you can probably work out what I've done wrong. You can then show me how to do it properly so that it doesn't look like a snap shot, so it doesn't look flat and so that it looks like some thought or skill was involved.

Or, you could ask what might cause it to look flat, like if there was a white wall under 2 feet to the left of shot, that might have reflected a bit too much light back. Maybe the light needed to be more on axis to avoid this (not possible as it would have needed to be on the sofa), perhaps the flash was set on too high a setting? Perhaps it wasn't physically high enough. I don't know, but this was a quick play to get a shot of my boy in front of a Christmas Tree. A snap shot for the album (or a flat, unskilled, badly thought out snap that I sincerely apologise posting as I seem to have offended your eyes by doing so).

Maybe it was a trial to see if I could work out the settings needed and be better prepared during the holidays.

I asked a single, straightforward question in the OP, Craig supplied the answer I was after. That was where I thought the thread would end.

I wish you and your loved ones a merry Christmas and I look forward to reading your blunt, usually correct, and mildly entertaining posts in other threads in the new year.
Click to expand...


Oh dear...

If I mistook it for on, or close camera flash because it looks like it, is that your fault, or mine? I'm only referring to the first image BTW.

I know full well what's caused it to look flat, and it's not anything to do with a wall. It's a hard lightsource too close to the axis of the lens... which is why it looked like on camera flash.

Look at the catchlights in the little boy's eyes. They're almost dead centre. The highlight on the tip of his nose... all point to a lightsource being very close to camera axis, and very small. The light is too up front, and too hard. Even if you gel the flash, the technique would have been the same.

looking at the catchlights... it appears to be a very hard smaller, harder lightsource.

Capture.JPG

Was the brolly very far away? A big light far away, becomes a small light in effect.
 
@Morbid can i ask, what colour space are you saving your photos as? I have noticed on a few pics that you have posted of your little 'un that he seems to have a green cast. I had this issue when saving as anything other than sRGB.

Cheers.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Oh dear...

If I mistook it for on, or close camera flash because it looks like it, is that your fault, or mine? I'm only referring to the first image BTW.

I know full well what's caused it to look flat, and it's not anything to do with a wall. It's a hard lightsource too close to the axis of the lens... which is why it looked like on camera flash.

Look at the catchlights in the little boy's eyes. They're almost dead centre. The highlight on the tip of his nose... all point to a lightsource being very close to camera axis, and very small. The light is too up front, and too hard. Even if you gel the flash, the technique would have been the same.

looking at the catchlights... it appears to be a very hard smaller, harder lightsource.

View attachment 52164

Was the brolly very far away? A big light far away, becomes a small light in effect.
Click to expand...

Yeah I know, sorry David. I did apologise earlier in case you must it? General consensus is the main flash didn't fire. So the catchlight is from the pop up flash. So yes, you were right. There is a small red dot. The main flash was emitting the red focus assist beam so maybe that has been picked up. Can't think of anything else giving a red light in the room, but don't know if an AF assist beam would be bright enough. It's weird.

In the test last night the flash was further away from the brolly, and that gave better/bigger catchlights. Someone pointed out in a pull back shot it was too close. More practice needed, radio trigger due today (though I'm away for a couple of days so may not be here to get it and practice with it). Seeing family and new great nephew so a few shots will be taken no doubt. Thanks for commenting and apologies for my earlier reply again.
 
Last edited:
minnnt said:
@Morbid can i ask, what colour space are you saving your photos as? I have noticed on a few pics that you have posted of your little 'un that he seems to have a green cast. I had this issue when saving as anything other than sRGB.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Will check, WB has always been problematic and I want to get this sorted!!

ETA: adobeRGB in ACR, then seems to go to sRGB when I open/save in PS. Most shots are saved directly from ACR so will change that to sRGB, thanks.
 
Last edited:
Yep! Arrived just before we left for Lancashire. Had a little play, seems to be working fine.

Re the data colour link. I'll be honest I'm not sure what it is or does. Shoot the multi coloured sheet with the camera and then use the software so that calibrates the screen?
 
Morbid said:
Yeah I know, sorry David. I did apologise earlier in case you must it?
Click to expand...

I did yes.

Morbid said:
General consensus is the main flash didn't fire. So the catchlight is from the pop up flash. So yes, you were right.
Click to expand...

The pop up flash should NOT be exposing the image though if set to commander mode. Well.. it can be set to both command, AND expose, but you really shouldn't be doing that. You set it to commander mode, then go into the flash custom menu and change it from TTL to "--" otherwise it not only commands the external flashes, but also exposes the image.
 
Pookeyhead said:
I did yes.



The pop up flash should NOT be exposing the image though if set to commander mode. Well.. it can be set to both command, AND expose, but you really shouldn't be doing that. You set it to commander mode, then go into the flash custom menu and change it from TTL to "--" otherwise it not only commands the external flashes, but also exposes the image.
Click to expand...

Thanks David, I didn't know the bit about changing it it the flash custom menu. It was set in the main flash setting only. That would explain why it always flashes. Handy to know, though now I have the new toy I no longer have that problem.
 
Morbid said:
Thanks David, I didn't know the bit about changing it it the flash custom menu. It was set in the main flash setting only. That would explain why it always flashes. Handy to know, though now I have the new toy I no longer have that problem.
Click to expand...


It will still flash when set to "--" but will have no affect upon exposure... it will flash merely to command the external flashes.
 
Another point, which is probably obvious, is to make sure the flash is zoomed out to its widest setting. Don't know your model, but usually 24mm.

I would pop a nice little stand on the Xmas list too, just to get the setup a little higher mate. There's some ultra cheap ones in 7day shop. Got one in the loft from there that I don't use that you're welcome to have if you're near by?
 
Livin The Dream said:
Another point, which is probably obvious, is to make sure the flash is zoomed out to its widest setting. Don't know your model, but usually 24mm.

I would pop a nice little stand on the Xmas list too, just to get the setup a little higher mate. There's some ultra cheap ones in 7day shop. Got one in the loft from there that I don't use that you're welcome to have if you're near by?
Click to expand...

Cheers Kris, though I have to say this is becoming a learning experience for me. Why would you have it on the widest zoom setting? I usually have this on auto zoom.

I need the hot shoe adapters with the umbrella hole in it to go on the stands that I got with a cheap Ebay background/lights kit. The lights are no use....it was bought before I discovered TP so now know better. The light stands are ok, but at the moment I can't fit the flashes to them. Finley is getting me a couple for Christmas, when I get round to finding some and sending his mum a link.

Just back from a 500 mile pre Christmas road trip, caught up with loads of family I haven't seen for ages, cousins, aunts, sister, nephew and his girlfriend and met my new great nephew, dad and step mum on the way back too. Just under 500 shots to process (good job I've got a couple of days of next week).
 
Morbid said:
... Why would you have it on the widest zoom setting? I usually have this on auto zoom.
Click to expand...

You need to place the flash in relation to the brolly and zoom the head so the beam fills the brolly nicely, too narrow a beam / too close and you end up with a small hotspot in the middle of the brolly rather than the large light source you're after.

Auto zoom switches off as soon as you take the flash off camera, in fact it switches off 'on camera' as soon as you tilt the head. (Auto zoom is a useless feature for photographers*)


* if you think about it, the auto zoom function is made for the on camera flash pointed directly at the subject to match the flash coverage angle to the lens zoom angle. But straight on flash looks horrid. So we bounce the flash, but as soon as you do that, the flash no longer knows what shape beam to emit because it doesn't know how far your bounce surface is or how far back to your subject. Off camera it doesn't know what modifier it's filling. It will default to 50mm I believe.
 
Phil has explained perfectly, you need to fill the brolly.

I use the manfrotto brolly bracket, this one:

http://www.wexphotographic.com/buy-...match=&plid=&gclid=cjbxsvg_2mkcfcsvgwodnxoh6g

But you will need a cold shoe mount too for a few quid. Just looking I see Westcott do this one all built in:

http://www.wexphotographic.com/buy-...match=&plid=&gclid=ci7c9zra2mkcfsggwwodvfacza

It's a good way of learning OCF but indoors, with fast moving children, I usually just bounce the flash off the ceiling. I have all the OCF paraphernalia but haven't used it for a long time.
 
huffy said:
I did see this type of brolly bracket that allows the head of the flash gun to be closer to the centre of the brolly.

I was wondering is this a bracket that is trying to cure a problem that does not exist or is it a good idea.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Section...042986?hash=item20faa492ea:g:WAoAAOSwymxVNbWu
Click to expand...
Tbh, they have something in that we obviously want the flash aimed at the centre of the brolly, but that bracket is also putting the flash too close to the brolly. Putting the flash further back on a traditional bracket and aiming it down is about good enough.
 
Thanks Phil - that makes perfect sense, thank you for taking the time to post that (or copying it from your stock list of answers to daft questions, if you have one).

Thanks Kris, that second link looks like what I need. Can't see how you attach the foot of the flash in the first one.

Thanks Huffy too. There are so many of these and seem to range from £5 Chinese made ones upwards. Want something that's decent and will last so will have a google later. I was thinking one that uses the base you get with the flashes so will have the same screw you get on a tripod head. Need one that fits the light stands I have unless the top of these are all a standard size?
 
Ian this is the Frio cold shoe which i use for connecting speed lights to lightstands.
HERE
They screw onto the spigot of the lightstand and then into whichever bracket you choose.
 
Morbid said:
This was the sort of thing I'd seen online. They are cheap, so probably not as robust as others.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwi29oPC0NnJAhUCyRoKHejXBA8QjB0IBQ&url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Phot-R-Professional-Universal-Swivel-Umbrella/dp/B00IIOZQKY&psig=AFQjCNHNMSsv6hAfbekoakahhR1IbDSy0A&ust=1450122614474345&rct=j

Cheap rubbish and a waste of money, or OK for light use?
Click to expand...
I have some of the basic ones, and they're ok, but I recently picked up one of these and it's much sturdier and will last a lot longer, and was still fairly cheap.....
Check out this item I found on eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=251886902835&alt=web
 
Morbid said:
Thank you! That looks perfect and as you've said they're OK, that's great. So many to chose from...that's really helped thank you again.
Click to expand...

I've more or less stopped using those angle brackets with holes in favour of the Godox S-type brackets. Much more robust, easier to use, dead easy to get the flash central & cheap - in fact cheaper than a bracket if you'd normally use a Frio too. And they work with S-fit accessories as well as umbrellas.

They're just a bit heavier if that's an issue, and make sure the hole is wide enough for your umbrella shaft. I'm not certain it would work with a 10mm shaft (e.g. Westcott).

I like the Frio but prefer the Lovegrove Flash Bracket. It's a very fine thing if you don't need an umbrella hole. Pricey but really well made & thought out.
 
juggler said:
I've more or less stopped using those angle brackets with holes in favour of the Godox S-type brackets. Much more robust, easier to use, dead easy to get the flash central & cheap - in fact cheaper than a bracket if you'd normally use a Frio too. And they work with S-fit accessories as well as umbrellas.

They're just a bit heavier if that's an issue, and make sure the hole is wide enough for your umbrella shaft. I'm not certain it would work with a 10mm shaft (e.g. Westcott).
Click to expand...
Me too...
I have several 'flash brackets' but the 's type' is my first choice nowadays.

juggler said:
...

I like the Frio but prefer the Lovegrove Flash Bracket. It's a very fine thing if you don't need an umbrella hole. Pricey but really well made & thought out.
Click to expand...
Blimey that's an expensive bracket.
 
Thanks both, for the limited use they are likely to get I think the others will be fine, and those a more than Finley has to spend...
 
Morbid said:
Gave this another try earlier. Any better?

IMG_2969e by Ian Bradshaw, on Flickr
Click to expand...
That's much better. Can still see an additional highlight though. Plus, I know it's picky, but you could raise the height of the main flash so the highlight is in the 1-2 o'clock position rather than the 3 o'clock position. It will look better, and may mask the smaller highlight from the on camera flash.
 
Last edited:
Loads better, not a lot to add to Bobs comments above, except:

The WB is better, but we're erring towards magenta now. It should have been good SOOC when using flash.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
That's much better. Can still see an additional highlight though. Plus, I know it's picky, but you could raise the height of the main flash so the highlight is in the 1-2 o'clock position rather than the 3 o'clock position. It will look better, and may mask the smaller highlight from the on camera flash.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob, I used the trigger so I'd guess the other catchlight is from the ceiling light. Could clone out the second one. Totally agree about the position of the catchlight. After Christmas I'll be able to use the light stand as I'll have the flash adapters from Finley. I had the flash on a tripod, pointed at Finley in the upright position with the umbrella attached to the flash using the other half's hair bands to try to get it further away from the umbrella and central. Thanks for commenting, it's appreciated.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top