why do you shoot digital... film is so much better!

Looking at the list in the link am I right in thinking a F80 would be a good choice with my lens collection?

The F80 was the first film SLR that I bought and it's a great introduction to film photography, especially as it works with most Nikon lenses made over the past 30 years (although, again, beware of DX lenses vignetting). :)
 
I acknowledge that most clients probably don't care whether you shoot with film or digital, but if film is giving a unique look, surely that is worth something?
.

I suspect that 'films unique look' is a photographers conceit , the average non photographer client can't tell the difference and doesnt care anyway - especially as this 'uniqueness' is prettymuch lost as soon as the transparancies/prints are scanned

the majority of the clients ive had expect to recive a dvd slideshow and/or a CD , and/or for relatives to be able to view the pictures on a website and make a print selection from there , which is almost certain to involve digital printing by a third party - the days of sitting down with a book of dark room prints and them selecting pictures for you to make more dark room prints of are pretty much dead, and (IME) not wha the average client wants
 
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I suspect that 'films unique look' is a photographers conceit , the average non photographer client can't tell the difference and doesnt care anyway - especially as this 'uniqueness' is prettymuch lost as soon as the transparancies/prints are scanned

the majority of the clients ive had expect to recive a dvd slideshow and/or a CD , and/or for relatives to be able to view the pictures on a website and make a print selection from there , which is almost certain to involve digital printing by a third party - the days of sitting down with a book of dark room prints and them selecting pictures for you to make more dark room prints of are pretty much dead, and (IME) not wha the average client wants

The uniqueness is definitely not lost in the scan, although the scanning doesn't necessarily pick up all of the detail that is in the original film.

Just have the lab scan the photos at the time of development. You'll get the photos back without needing to do much, if any, post, and then you can just work with the client in the same way as digital.
 
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The F80 was the first film SLR that I bought and it's a great introduction to film photography, especially as it works with most Nikon lenses made over the past 30 years (although, again, beware of DX lenses vignetting). :)

Thank you I will keep an eye open for one there are a few on ebay with a lens so may look at one of thoose then if I get on well with it I can buy lens more suited to it as I go (I tell you what with classic Minis and photography as hobbies I'll never be ruch:LOL:)
 
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I think there could be a small, niche market for a film photographer shooting black and white to work along with a modern digital photographer at weddings. It would have to be with medium format (or larger - I once thought about doing it with a Speed Graphic).


Steve.
 
You know that sentence makes it look like the film shooters sit above the rest?

Sorry. Could be a mis-placed comma!

I meant people like Jose Villa and others whose names I can't remember. However, they work for clients who are not really bothered by price.

Some of them probably use digital too but I don't think Jose Villa does.


Steve
 
Thank you I will keep an eye open for one there are a few on ebay with a lens so may look at one of thoose then if I get on well with it I can buy lens more suited to it as I go (I tell you what with classic Minis and photography as hoddies I'll never be ruch:LOL:)

Yep, no worries. A 50mm f/1.8 g would go nicely with this camera and would be good for portraits on your D3100 as well.


I meant people like Jose Villa and others whose names I can't remember. However, they work for clients who are not really bothered by price.

Some of them probably use digital too but I don't think Jose Villa does.


Steve

Jose Villa and Jonathan Canlas are doing very well right now; they're charging big time money and exclusively shooting film.
 
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Sorry. Could be a mis-placed comma!

I meant people like Jose Villa and others whose names I can't remember. However, they work for clients who are not really bothered by price.

Some of them probably use digital too but I don't think Jose Villa does.


Steve

Yep, no worries. A 50mm f/1.8 g would go nicely with this camera and would be good for portraits on your D3100 as well.

Jose Villa and Jonathan Canlas are doing very well right now; they're charging big time money and exclusively shooting film.

I thought I'd acknowledged that it could be done successfully:shrug:

However it's a niche product that doesn't have many similarities to the 'average' customers needs or the 'average' customers budget or the 'average' photographer.

Please remember I shot weddings on film for a lot of years, it's a different world, there might be a growing trend atm but it will never reach the masses again, because the convenience of digital has created an entirely new industry.

Jeff Ascough is the usual UK photographer that hits the 'Worlds top ten' lists, and he gave up on film years ago, after building his reputation as a rangefinder b&w shooter. The convenience of digital outweighed the advantages of the alternatives.

The 'idea' of shooting film too is nice, but that'd take me into juggling 3 cameras rather than 2, and that looks like it could be close to 'too many cooks'.
 
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I thought I'd acknowledged that it could be done successfully.

Yes. I think we are all agreeing rather than arguing.

Ten years ago, this would have descended into a 'my method is better than your method' argument. It's nice that it is now just a discussion on everyone's individual preferences and the reasons for them.


Steve.
 
I thought I'd acknowledged that it could be done successfully:shrug:

However it's a niche product that doesn't have many similarities to the 'average' customers needs or the 'average' customers budget or the 'average' photographer.

Please remember I shot weddings on film for a lot of years, it's a different world, there might be a growing trend atm but it will never reach the masses again, because the convenience of digital has created an entirely new industry.

Jeff Ascough is the usual UK photographer that hits the 'Worlds top ten' lists, and he gave up on film years ago, after building his reputation as a rangefinder b&w shooter. The convenience of digital outweighed the advantages of the alternatives.

The 'idea' of shooting film too is nice, but that'd take me into juggling 3 cameras rather than 2, and that looks like it could be close to 'too many cooks'.

Yeah, I think we're all largely in agreement. I'm not suggesting that film's going to completely take over the photographic world again and I probably would concur that film will largely cater to a niche market for the foreseeable future.

I would say that the folks that are really shooting film successfully (at least in wedding photography) are presenting their work as a premium product and that seems to be the best way to approach it at present (I'm not saying it is premium, but that their marketing and pricing implies such). Would it make sense for photographers to offer their normal digital package, but then the option to upgrade to a 'premium film' package? I for one know people that will upgrade anything that they're buying to a premium package, so why not for photography?

Anyway, I guess my big beef is that many people who have only started photography in the digital era are largely ignoring film as if it has nothing to offer and has completely replaced film, but that is very far from the truth. Eighteen months ago digital SLRs were presented to me as the only real option for getting into photography and now I almost feel that I was misled as no one mentioned how easy and cheap it is to pick up a film body with a lens and get started.
 
Eighteen months ago digital SLRs were presented to me as the only real option for getting into photography and now I almost feel that I was misled as no one mentioned how easy and cheap it is to pick up a film body with a lens and get started.

It's not just people who are new to photography. Ten years ago, many people including myself were brainwashed into thinking that digital was the only way to go. I bought a Nikon D100 and whilst it was o.k. it didn't really interest me - especially the computer part.

Before that, I only owned one camera, but after I realised that digital was not for me, I started collecting and I now have far too many film cameras.

However, why not? They are cheap now. In some cases I have bought cameras which I could only dream about owning a few years ago for hardly any money at all.

And film isn't going away. I can count half a dozen film manufacturers currently in business.


Steve.
 
Some interesting points Teflon Mike, I won't quote the whole post as it makes viewing it on the ipad cumbersome. If all you are shooting for is Facebook at 1000 pixels then do you need the latest and greatest equipment? I find I have physical photo albums gathering dust of the pictures I do print out, and even if I do print out large from the D800 it is on the rare side.
Nope. Definitely DONT need the latest & greatest kit. Never have.

Look at the 'greats' and what they have used, has almost always been 'lower' tech; and they have got thier shots from having 'the eye' and having the patience to wait for what they want, and use the kit they have to the fullest, and the know-how to do so. We tend to put FAR too high a 'value' on the hardware... after all... thats what we pay for... only natural we should feel we get something 'extra' for our money. Unfortunate fact, though is, that 90% of a picture is in the eye of the picture maker, so the significance of how much 'better' better hardware can make will NEVER be all THAT big.

Twenty umpety years ago; I was playing with a couple of antique 120 roll film cameras; and had an aquantence, offer me loan of a Hassablad, telling me that after I had seen what it could do, I would throw away all that '35mm rubbish' and never look back... and as insentive, he offered me the Hassy, lens and light meter, I think for £100 or so! I spent a weekend with it, and my OM4 and my XA2 and my Sigma Mk1 and just for the heck of it my Zeiss Ikon folder. A week in the dark room later.. I emerged red eyed and fuggy headed and gave him his camera back.

Yup... I wont argue, a Hassy is a loverly bit of kit... BUT! After hours pouring over comparison shots and doing daft things like shuffling them up and looking at them 'blind' not knowing which camera they had come from..... the differences? Yes, they were there; at least at VERY high enlargements, but even then, they weren't THAT big a difference to make me chuck in my lot with 35mm.

Now, it was NOT long after that that I 'discovered' digital. About 1995 or so. ACTUALLY... I am working my way through the very set of snaps I ever 'digitised' back in the Summer of 1996. They were taken at an Open University Summer-School, while I was studdying IT. Folder says there's 176 pictures in it, so five films? (Unless more come to light as I work through the archive!) I had access to an early colour scanner, and as I recall, almost anything but lowest DPI settings locked the PC486 computer up! And I spent about a day, getting them into the computer one at a time, sizing them to fit a 1.44Mb floppy! Then rotating them for screen display! Cherry-Picking I think 30 frames, to not display, but upload to the Course Bulatin Board... which took about another three nights on Dial-Up connection! Oh! How much faster a new Pentium 90 seemed!

But, Digital Distribution; I am slowly working through the archive uploading my 'old' photo's to Face-Book, so that family and freinds can see them. and MANY are only just seeing them for the very first time.

Set I have just done; quite a big one; file contains 240 images according to the counter; family 'do' my little brothers christening. 9 or 10 films in ONE day?!?!? Actually recall a cousin commenting on all the film cans in the bullet belt in the top of my bag, that they were all just empties for 'show'... then showing him the cashe under the camera deck! Probably around two-dozen films in all! (Used to bulk-load) BUT, one of those events where a LOT of people you dont meet very often were gathered; and I'd been told, "Make sure you get pictures of every-body, wont you"

So, normal sort of scenario for the era; probably 150 or more folk, family and freinds turned up, and I took pictures of them all throughout the day. Week or so later, the films came back, in thier little happy-snap wallets, and the imediete family, perhaps six or seven people, flipped hastily through them. The wallets might have been shown to my Gran and Grandad, possibly the neighbours; but at most a dozen people got to look at them. Then, probably five of six years later, during a tidy up, they were dug out of the draw, and sorted out, and of 240 pictures? Maybe 60 made it into a 'Christening' album; seem by maybe an extra three or four people when they came for New-Years or something.

Now? Well there were maybe 150 folk at that do; of which probably 100 have never seen the photo's. Of those hundred? Well, its twenty something years on! Let me have a look... yeah.. HE's Dead... so's she... and her! Oh gawd... they divorsed YEARS ago! Him? No idea who he was then! LOL... isn't it the way! Any-how, of those 100 people... there's probably 50 who were in them, that can now look at them... and a lot of them were KIDS! Who NOW have kids of thier own! Who can ALSO look at them!

On thier i-phone! At thier convenience. When the idea grabs them. They dont HAVE to make an effort; or an apointment! Of phone me and say "Mike, have you got any pictures of..."

And THAT was what dawned on me when I uploaded that first set from the OU Summer School. I'd been on a course with 30 other people, who I would PROBABLY never see again. Yet, they and others all got to see these pictures, giving them a reason beyond a mere personal record of one week of one summer in my life.

The notion inspired me, and doing the IT course and learning early HTML and having to code in txt a basic web-site, lead in time to me creating my own webby, and in the last fifteen years or so, a lot of the photo's I have taken have been for that.

YET... it was only this Christmas I fessed up to buying a Digital SLR.

I have had a film scanner since 2000. I got a pretty respectable redundancy package that year and after looking at digital camera offerings of the day; decided to stick with film and scan; I reckoned I would pack the dark room away, all but the dev-tank and changing bag, and do it on the desk-top; after shooting and kitchen-sink processing slide film.....

THAT was when I discovered how much it DIDN'T save... when the now ex-missus demanded I print everything off, as she couldn't pass round a 14" CRT monitor screen to show her freinds our holiday snaps!

"Cant you make it Bigger"

WOMEN! Isn't that what they ALL say!

Yup, buying super-glossy photo-paper for 360Dpi printer, and trying to get six pictures to a page... Oh no! SHE demanded the full 8 inches! Of EVERY picture!

2003, I bought my first Digital Camera; a 1.3Mpix Jenoptic. Had 1Mb of internal memory, I recall, and I bought a 4Mb SD card to go in it! No that's NOT a typo 4M not 4Gb! Prices had 'just' fallen enough to make that a sub £100 camera!

YET.... I would STILL have to shrink full-res images from it for web-pub!

I'd still be using it; were it not for the fact it had a small problem and would only take four nice fresh Alkaline batteries. It would not run off Ni-Cads as they only bung out 1.2volts, which made it practically as expensive to run as one of my film cameras, before I tried making prints from it!

I blew the little bugger up, about 2006... I found a radio control car one of the kids had taken to pieces and robbed out it's AA battery holder, and mounted it on the bottom of the camera by the tripod mount to take 5 AA Ni-Cads! They lasted quite well until one day I connected the wires to the wrong terminals!

Which left me borrowing one of my kids cameras; they each had a Kodak 7.1Mp, with a 3x 35-105 equivilent zoom. Quite a handy camera actually... I have rebuilt one from the canibalised remains of the pair my kids eventually destroyed! A 'cheap' 5Mpix lensless Premier serving me in the interim.

Which brings me to this Cristmas just gone; after being frustrated on a day out with the kids by the limitations of SUCH a cheap compact, and what to do about it.

And biting the bullet, I bought the Nikon D3200. It seemed about the best value DSLR bought 'new' with the Nikon cash-back at the time; but I bought it full well knowing that I didn't really 'NEED' it; and I had struggled long and hard over variouse compacts and bridge digi's; concluding ultimately, that while they would pretty much do almost everything I needed a camera to do... ultimately I would feel cheated that it wasn't the camera I 'wanted'.

Interchangeable lenses aren't the big deal that they were when if you wanted 'big-reach' an SLR was about the only way to get it, now that super-compacts often have 10 or 20x zooms. BUT it IS a bigger deal if you like WIDE lenses... and I do! My favourite lens is an old Panomar 12mm Fish. And you dont get many zoom compacts that go much wider than 35mm equivilent.. and I most used 24 or 28 wides on my film SLR's.

I also am not much of a fan of view-screens; I like an optical view-finder, that I can more reliably frame with in low light or bright sunlight.

24Mpix? Yeah, little on the high side; but I fully expect that pix counts will creep up, and long before I'm done, become less than average rather than above... meanwhile, if I scrape together the pennies to get a Digi-Fish... expect it to be useful; full round, you are only capturing an image on about 3/4 the sensor area, and if you take a square crop from that, less than half.

And I can utilise that extra resolution; I mean I might not print much, but nice to know I could.

So, while I dont NEED the capability of the camera I have... I know I can exploit a fair bit of it's versatility...

As has been said; film isn't any great handicap; I can do and do with almost as much ease everything I might want to do with digital with the kit I have, and probably do it 'better' in most cases. And at £1 a roll or less I hunted around or bulk-loaded, and £1.50 straight dev, at ASDA or less if I cracked out the tanks and kitchen sinked C41... I could take an AWFUL lot of film photo's, for the £400 odd quid I have spent on a DSLR & kit in the last six months, and am likely to spend replacing digital hardware as it reaches the end of its shorter service life.

AND it wouldn't necesserily be ALL that much of a ball-ache in extra 'work' to get pictures to screen. I can kitchen sink a roll of film in about half an hour or so; ie faster than a mini-lab, without having to wait for opening hours! Then an hour, hour and a half sat at the PC, I can scan & dress the pictures and have them up to Face-Book, in NOT A LOT more time than it would take to clear down the SD Card; preview and dress the pictures from that; re-size and up-load them. BUT! Its a heck of a lot less effort and hassle!

Convenience.

It's about ALL digital has to offer. At least at point of capture.

Digital Dark-Room? NOT having to make mess in the kitchen mixing chamicals? NOT having to black out the bath-room or sit under the stairs with the enlarger and hypo-fumes.. THAT is what digital removes most of.

And the PC puts an awful lot of quite elevated dark-room techniques in the hands of people who other wise would never be able to envisage them, 'at the touch of a button'... AND makes them a lot more reliable.

Like I said, even Pamnorama-Stitching is nothing 'new' to the digital age.
I've sat in the dark room, with a strip of negs, a piece of 10x8 cut into four 10x2 strips, and a marker pen, trying to index 'dots' to blend exposures from each neg to create a 'seemless' panorama... NEVER succeeded... but have tried it, following other folk who created stunning 'composite' prints in the days before desk-top computers, that can lgive such 'skill' to any numpty with enough money and the inclination.

Why DON'T I shoot film? Well, I still do! Where I reach the limitations of Digi-Kit. OR where 'convenience' isn't really needed or so useful.

My Sigma MK1 is sat on the shelf next to me with the Panomar 12mm on it, as I don't yet have a fish for digi. Ikon is sat under it with a roll of B&W in it. And there's a Konica compact loaded up sat in the car door-pocket.

"Better" remains subjective... and situation dependent, and what's 'appropriate' or 'best' for the job at hand. Both medium have their merits, that can be exploited to best effect.

Good cameras don't make good pictures.... good photographers make good pictures by making best use of the best camera they have for the picture they want to take.
 
Some great posts on this thread has made for fascinating reading. I hope a result of this thread is a few people have a dabble with film that wouldn't have otherwise. It's a rewarding experience.

Personally, I'm 32 years old. As a kid, I had 35mm point and shoots but despite my fathers efforts I wasn't interested in anything beyond dropping the films off at boots and collecting the results the next day. When digital took off I had a few more point and shoots before the photography bug bit. A digital SLR followed and a steep but fascinating learning curve followed. It

It's the learning process for me where digital really helps. Instant results, limitless experimenting must add up to a faster education or certainly seemed to in my case.

Sure, digital is obviously also very convenient but if it were all about that, I'd just use my phone and in fact do on occasion.

Now I have a foot in both camps as I started recently acquiring relatively cheap olympus om equipment and shooting a bit of black and white. Hard to say exactly why I went down this route but I know a big part of it the cameras themselves. Beautiful metal bodies, positive mechanical controls and they look cool too. There are digital cameras that try to capture some of this appeal (Fuji & olympus spring to mind) but none outside Leica have the feel of a 60's / 70's metal slr.

So now that I have a choice, I generally shoot digital when I just want the shot and film when I want to shoot for the sake of enjoying it.

The results from either format are different but both digital and film can give great results to the point where I couldn't say one is better.

Diverting into medium format now, slippery slope.
 
It's the learning process for me where digital really helps. Instant results, limitless experimenting must add up to a faster education or certainly seemed to in my case.

The instant feedback of digital can really help accelerate the learning process, but at the same time there are so many more things to consider with digital that it can also be more confusing to learn.

Auto ISO, long exposure noise reduction, VR/IS/OS, raw processing, etc. is a lot to add to a novice in addition to the normal workings of the exposure triangle. In fact, my fiancee is still completely confused about most of these things when she picks up the digital camera and I doubt that she's alone in this sense.

Now you can get more advanced film cameras, but with my own, I only need to worry about setting the shutter speed, the aperture, and nailing the focus. That's it!

Plus, it's almost impossible to mess up an exposure on negative film as long as you err on the side of overexposure. You can often go up to 5 stops over and still be okay. Negative film is so forgiving that disposable cameras don't even offer any exposure control and people can still get useable photos out of them. Imagine a digital camera without any exposure controls.

Now, I'm not advocating that film cameras are the only way to learn, as I've certainly messed up a few rolls of film while learning in ways that I couldn't have done with a digital camera, but they do have something to offer in this regard.

Now I have a foot in both camps as I started recently acquiring relatively cheap olympus om equipment and shooting a bit of black and white. Hard to say exactly why I went down this route but I know a big part of it the cameras themselves. Beautiful metal bodies, positive mechanical controls and they look cool too. There are digital cameras that try to capture some of this appeal (Fuji & olympus spring to mind) but none outside Leica have the feel of a 60's / 70's metal slr.

So now that I have a choice, I generally shoot digital when I just want the shot and film when I want to shoot for the sake of enjoying it.

The results from either format are different but both digital and film can give great results to the point where I couldn't say one is better.

Diverting into medium format now, slippery slope.

Always good to hear of more people taking the plunge into film! (y)
 
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And film isn't going away. I can count half a dozen film manufacturers currently in business.

And the question is: Why aren't these companies doing more to promote what film can offer today's photographers?

Most people will be unaware that Kodak has released several new emulsions over the past few years (e.g., Portra and Ektar) that are unsurpassed in their fine grain structure and dynamic range.

Obviously camera manufacturers aren't interested in film cameras, as their customers would no longer need to upgrade every few years, so the onus rests with film manufacturers to promote those advantages that film still offers.
 
that was why I swapped to digital - I was doing about £200 a month in film and D&P so laying out a grand on a DSLR made perfect sense at the time.

I know i just cant afford to shoot film anymore,its as simple as that i do shoot a lot.
Years ago when i was a pro my biggest bill every year was film,i got some help from Kodak, they give me so much film free every year.
And if i did a trip abroad :eek: bags of different film.

I don't dislike film still got one film camera,and now and again i like to shoot some b/w thought it.

:)
 
Why do I still shoot digital ? hmm, well if I want to sell something on ebay I'm not about to waste a roll of film to photograph it am I :D

I like both. For colour I personally prefer Digital, not because it's better but because colour is so difficult to get right I like to have as many options for adjustment as possible, and that means digital.

This is entirely because I'm a crap photographer of course, I do have a load of slide film here I've just purchased to improve in this regard since despite what I just said, the look of slide film is what I want! (Actually Fuji DSLR Images are incredibly close to the look of slide as it is).
 
And the question is: Why aren't these companies doing more to promote what film can offer today's photographers?

Most people will be unaware that Kodak has released several new emulsions over the past few years (e.g., Portra and Ektar) that are unsurpassed in their fine grain structure and dynamic range.

Obviously camera manufacturers aren't interested in film cameras, as their customers would no longer need to upgrade every few years, so the onus rests with film manufacturers to promote those advantages that film still offers.

Because its about Joe public who maybe shoot photos a couple of times a years,holiday,events,etc in their life,now if you work that out worldwide when film was king you could sell a hell of a lot of film.
But now Joe public prefer to shoot digital,their just not enough money in film to do big promotion any more.
 
Because its about Joe public who maybe shoot photos a couple of times a years,holiday,events,etc in their life

Surely it's a lot cheaper and easier for Joe Public to buy a used film camera and a lens if they're going to only use it a few times a year?

Plus, there's far more exposure latitude, so the average person doesn't have to worry about getting all of their settings spot on.

But now Joe public prefer to shoot digital,their just not enough money in film to do big promotion any more.

You can't make any money if you don't promote what you've got and people aren't aware of what your product can do.
 
Plus, there's far more exposure latitude, so the average person doesn't have to worry about getting all of their settings spot on.
.

but on the other hand theres no instant feedback no lcd, no histogram so the average person doesnt know if they've stuffed their settings up.

also i think the instanaenous of digital is the winner for the GWC side - kid out in a club with his mates wants to take pictures of their antics and share them imediately - no wait 24hrs plus for D&P
 
The uniqueness is definitely not lost in the scan, although the scanning doesn't necessarily pick up all of the detail that is in the original film.
.

really ?

I'm not 100% sure theres a uniquness in the first place , but if there is its presumably to do with the film quality, so of course thats lost once the file has been turned digital.
 
really ? I'm not 100% sure theres a uniquness in the first place , but if there is its presumably to do with the film quality, so of course thats lost once the file has been turned digital.

When I shoot Kodak Portra and Fuji Pro films I meter for the shadows AND overexpose an additional 1-3 stops (depending on light) to get good detail in the shadows and I still don't ever blow out my highlights (so there's no need for an LCD to check my exposure).

I think there may be some compression of this dynamic range if you choose to scan, but I leave this to the lab to figure that out if I'm shooting colour film. At the end of the day, I get film scans that have detail in both the darkest and brightest areas of the image, which would be all but impossible to capture in a single digital exposure.

Obviously these benefits of film come at other costs (e.g., instantaneous results, additional ISO flexibility), so one doesn't necessarily beat the other in any way as a whole.

Perhaps I'll consider posting examples, if only to show what opportunities film can offer, but I do want to be careful that things don't descend into an argument of one vs the other.
 
which would be all but impossible to capture in a single digital exposure.

.

but which would be easily acheived (should you wish to ) by bracketting shots - which a DSLR can do automatically in one burst -and merging the exposures digitally. Some DSLRs can even do the merge , though many people would prefer to do it in PP
 
Surely it's a lot cheaper and easier for Joe Public to buy a used film camera and a lens if they're going to only use it a few times a year?

Plus, there's far more exposure latitude, so the average person doesn't have to worry about getting all of their settings spot on.



You can't make any money if you don't promote what you've got and people aren't aware of what your product can do.

Most just use their mobile phones,and they can share straight away,plus many older cameras film were slow to auto-focus,and they don't care about exposure latitude,i doubt they even know.

:)
 
but which would be easily acheived (should you wish to ) by bracketting shots - which a DSLR can do automatically in one burst -and merging the exposures digitally. Some DSLRs can even do the merge , though many people would prefer to do it in PP

Well, this is where personal preference would come in, but I like to take my one shot and move on. I don't need to play with any settings and no need for a computer. My fiancée likes it this way too, as it frees up my time for other things ;).

If you can achieve this digitally, that's perfectly fine, but I don't find that it's any more convenient than using film stocks that are specifically designed to record all of that light without the need for bracketing, pp, etc.

There's also something to be said for the skin tones and textures easily achieved with film as well. I'm sure there's a way to do this digitally, but I don't have the time to bother figuring it out and it makes no sense for me to do so when my film photos just come back from the lab looking that way anyway.
 
but on the other hand theres no instant feedback no lcd, no histogram so the average person doesnt know if they've stuffed their settings up.

That's to presume that the camera lets them MAKE any 'settings'....

also presumes they have the first idea what the histogram represents and how to adjust any settings by what its telling them!

Which implies that the suggested "Average" user has a high end DSLR but not the know-how to use it, AND is following the 'truth by repetition', that having spent umpety hundred quid on a top flite, fully auto camera, had TURNED IT OFF and is using it in 'Manual' mode, making 90% of the cameras sophisticated circuitry redundant.....because.... because... WELL, every one SAYS that's what he should do! That's what the 'Pro's do innit?!

I think that more often the 'average' occasional camera use is more like my mum; it's a digital compact, that has almost no obvious user settings; unless you have read the manual in depth and investigated all of the lower level menus; that doesn't give you ANY exposure info, other than perhaps a warning that flash is needed when dark; that for the most part, pointing and pressing, letting the camera make the choices its programmed to, will deliver pretty much what you expect pretty much most of the time.

also i think the instanaenous of digital is the winner for the GWC side - kid out in a club with his mates wants to take pictures of their antics and share them imediately - no wait 24hrs plus for D&P

"Look at wot Geoff's Pulled!" 5-minutes ago via mobile upload....

Yeah.... straight from phone to instagram.... so that bird geoff's snogging breaks off because her Samsung just bonged when her mates 'shared' it to her from the other side of the club where she's sat looking like an extra from a third rate thriller, with an uplighter under her chin!

Thunk: Does 'Just 17' or whatever the teen glam rag of the decade is these days now give out make up advice for "How to look good with a i-phone up your nose!" or "How to turn the Halloween lamp effect to your advantage!"?

Err... yeah.... that 'immediacy' isn't delivered by digital cameras. Its delivered by camera-phones.

And while they are probably the most popular imaging devices in common usage; that is about their only party trick.... and they aren't even ALL that great at it!

I mean, the 'smart-phone'... telephone, internet terminal, camera, GPS, music-player, video viewer, sat-nav, gawd knows what else chucked in... its the swiss army pen-knife of electronics... jack-knife of all trades, master of none. Victorinox, is a wonderful handy tool if you are stuck at the side of the road with a dodgy coil connection... or if you are camping and want to open a tin of beans... but it's NOT what you would have in the kitchen instead of a tin-opener, or in the garage instead of a pair of stripping/crimping scissors!

Back to merits of the medium, and appropriate tools for the job.
 
and they don't care about exposure latitude,i doubt they even know. :)

Most folks may not know about exposure latitude, but, from what I see on Facebook and Twitter, they desperately need it! ;)
 
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but which would be easily acheived (should you wish to ) by bracketting shots - which a DSLR can do automatically in one burst -and merging the exposures digitally. Some DSLRs can even do the merge , though many people would prefer to do it in PP

Not really.... lets say I wanted to shoot a fast moving dance sequence, or a speeding racing car, or a horse jumping in an indoor stadium or or any high speed 'action' scenario that needed 1/1000th+ shutter speed..... by the time a Digi cam has fired three frames.. I have nearly 1s of motion between first and last.. they ent going to 'merge' very well in HRD, are they?
 
Not really.... lets say I wanted to shoot a fast moving dance sequence, or a speeding racing car, or a horse jumping in an indoor stadium or or any high speed 'action' scenario that needed 1/1000th+ shutter speed..... by the time a Digi cam has fired three frames.. I have nearly 1s of motion between first and last.. they ent going to 'merge' very well in HRD, are they?

but none of those would need the massive dynamic range anyway (we were talking about wedding portraiture)- and by the same token if you are shooting high action, do you want to be changing rolls of film every 36 shots ? (or fewer) or every time you need to change iso.

Ive done a fair bit of high action (mainly wildlife like diving gannets) with both digital and film and I would definitely prefer a DSLR with a long burst and a deep buffer to regular film changing - so for that sort of work my view is that digital has film beat hands down
 
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Well, this is where personal preference would come in, but I like to take my one shot and move on. I don't need to play with any settings and no need for a computer. My fiancée likes it this way too, as it frees up my time for other things ;).

If you can achieve this digitally, that's perfectly fine, but I don't find that it's any more convenient than using film stocks that are specifically designed to record all of that light without the need for bracketing, pp, etc.

There's also something to be said for the skin tones and textures easily achieved with film as well. I'm sure there's a way to do this digitally, but I don't have the time to bother figuring it out and it makes no sense for me to do so when my film photos just come back from the lab looking that way anyway.

All of which is fine as a personal preference for an amateur shooting for their own enjoyment - but my point was that these things are not a unique selling point for a wedding proffesional , as every decent wedding photographer will get their shots properly exposed etc whether they are using digital or film.
 
but none of those would need the massive dynamic range anyway (we were talking about wedding portraiture)- and by the same token if you are shooting high action, do you want to be changing rolls of film every 36 shots ? (or fewer).

Could you use film for sport or fast action? Yes, but it might not be more convenient than using digital.

Could you use digital in a scene that requires massive dynamic range? Yes, but it might not necessarily more convenient to do so or best suited for the job.

They overlap, whilst still offering something just a little bit different and this is why neither has replaced the other. I think that film has a lot to offer to people on this very forum, but they're not even aware of it.
 
They overlap, whilst still offering something just a little bit different and this is why neither has replaced the other. I think that film has a lot to offer to people on this very forum, but they're not even aware of it.

I agree with the first bit , but not the second - I shot film for about 15 years before I got a DSLR, and I still use film occasionally - for the enjoyment of using old cameras (of which i have quite a large selection).

However my preference for serious 35mm work is DSLR in nearly all cases (The last time i did anything serious with film was when i spent 10 days on skokholm without access to power - my DSLR batteries gave out on day 8 so i spent the last two days using an Eos3 and provia 400f which i'd taken along for just such an extingency )

I still use Medium format film because I cant afford a digital back - if someone gave me a leaf aptus to fit my mamiya 645, id go digital in a heartbeat and the camera would get a lot more use thrugh being freed of the cost restraint of film and processing

That said i don't believe the in economics of "oh you can get into photography cheap with film" - yes you can pick up bodies cheap - but if you want decent AF you still have to buy the same lenses (more expensively because you don't have access to cheaper DX format lenses), and as i said before i went digital I was doing about £200 per month in D&P - so even if you bought a decent DSLR like a 7D thats only 5 months to break even.

IMO the majority of people here who shoot digital are doing so because its better for their needs, not because they arent aware of the alternative (just as those who shoot film do so because its better for their needs - not because they arent aware of digital)
 
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All of which is fine as a personal preference for an amateur shooting for their own enjoyment - but my point was that these things are not a unique selling point for a wedding proffesional , as every decent wedding photographer will get their shots properly exposed etc whether they are using digital or film.

I see people (pros and amateurs alike) trying to do all sorts of things to achieve that Brenizer method (I think that's what it's called) when all they had to do was pick up a cheap medium format camera to get that shallow depth of field.

If you want the look of film, shoot it!

There are also quite a few American wedding photographers doing very well shooting film exclusively (Jose Villa and Jonathan Canlas especially) and medium format film is a big part of their success. I probably wouldn't personally shoot a wedding exclusively on film, but it is done and it is done very well by some pros.

The unique look can also come from the equipment too. My Bronica 80mm f/2.8 is the equivalent of a 30mm f/1.0 on my D5100 (try finding that lens!). Surely some pros and amateurs could benefit by incorporating a bit of film and film equipment into their shooting, no?
 
for a pro (in my opinion) it doesnt outweigh the limitations of shooting with roll film - I've got a 645 which i sometimes use for my own enjoyment , but i would never take it along to a wedding.

personally ive never encountered a situation at a wedding where i need a shallower DoF than i can acheive with my 85mm f1.8 on a 5D3
 
I agree with the first bit , but not the second - I shot film for about 15 years before I got a DSLR, and I still use film occasionally - for the enjoyment of using old cameras (of which i have quite a large selection). However my preference for serious 35mm work is DSLR in nearly all cases (The last time i did anything serious with film was when i spent 10 days on skokholm without access to power - my DSLR batteries gave out on day 8 so i spent the last two days using an Eos3 and provia 400f which i'd taken along for just such an extingency ) I still use Medium format film because I cant afford a digital back That said i don't believe the in economics of "oh you can get into photography cheap with film" - yes you can pick up bodies cheap - but if you want decent AF you still have to buy the same lenses (more expensively because you don't have access to cheaper DX format lenses), and as i said before i went digital I was doing about £200 per month in D&P - so even if you bought a decent DSLR like a 7D thats only 5 months to break even.

I actually think we're mostly agreeing here. It's true that in many cases digital works out better, but in others film does (e.g., medium format), although these aren't hard and fast rules.

It seems that you're making informed choices and picking what suits you best. I see nothing wrong with that. :)
 
IMO the majority of people here who shoot digital are doing so because its better for their needs, not because they arent aware of the alternative (just as those who shoot film do so because its better for their needs - not because they arent aware of digital)

This perfectly sums up the position.
 
IMO the majority of people here who shoot digital are doing so because its better for their needs, not because they arent aware of the alternative (just as those who shoot film do so because its better for their needs - not because they arent aware of digital)

I think this is the bit I'm most interested in.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who are aware of film on this forum, but simply choose digital as it's better for their needs. No problems there.

I mustn't be the only person on this forum, however, who was completely unaware of what film had to offer until relatively recently?
 
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I am in your camp too. I used to think that film was something from the olden days and digital was the way forward until I started using a Medium Format camera (at first) and then latterly found I liked it so much I moved onto large format. After trying it I realised that film has a great deal to offer (colour rendition, exposure latitude, handling of highlights, capturing more detail than my digital camera at the time) as well as drawbacks (dust spotting, having to get it developed and scanned, shooting a roll and getting the metering wrong so paying for the privilege of getting a series of under or overexposed images etc etc).

I would never have used film at all however if I had not used digital first as I found that using digital at no cost (my dad gave me a camera to try) gave me the confidence to try things with no real cost consequences. In turn I saw people were still using film and thought I would give it a go have not looked back. For me personally, in photographic terms I genuinely think that there is nothing better than a properly exposed slide of MF or preferably LF film, though a nice TMAX negative comes close.

I use digital as well of course as it is convenient, sometimes lighter and gives instantaneous results. If I did not use digital I would have missed a lot of great family photos. For the type of photography I enjoy as a hobby however, I genuinely think that film is the best medium for it.

At the end of the day both are great, but for different reasons and for different things.
 
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