backlog negs need scanning advice

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eugene
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Firstly i,m not really into digital , infact i consider i never left film at all ,closest i ever got is Canon A640 and an HP scanner years ago that bit the dust.

I,m thinking now about scanning in my tons of negs B&W and colour since the early 70s . So these shops in towns here and there that do copying and scanning and printing posters they must have some kit sitting there , i have already been into one shop and they have several machines but i,m not sure which brand of scanner / copier , i have yet to find that out. This could cost a lot of money !!!. but as an experiment hmmm.
Or is it best to buy your own scanner , if so which brand ?. And which software ?.
 
@Eugene T First thing to ask is, what kinds of film? For 135 only, I use a Plustek dedicated scanner. if you have a mix of 120 and 135, then you need a flatbed scanner (usually an Epson). If you throw 4x5 into that mix, you need a higher end flatbed (Epson 700 etc), or something even more upmarket.

I'd budget at least a fiver a film to get cut film scanned at a lab... so you'll save tons of money buying your own (specially since you can sell when "done"). However, it will cost you lots of time. Some of that will be learning how to get decent colours from colour negative film, it's a PITA!
 
@Eugene T First thing to ask is, what kinds of film? For 135 only, I use a Plustek dedicated scanner. if you have a mix of 120 and 135, then you need a flatbed scanner (usually an Epson). If you throw 4x5 into that mix, you need a higher end flatbed (Epson 700 etc), or something even more upmarket.

I'd budget at least a fiver a film to get cut film scanned at a lab... so you'll save tons of money buying your own (specially since you can sell when "done"). However, it will cost you lots of time. Some of that will be learning how to get decent colours from colour negative film, it's a PITA!

^^ This.

Perhaps you could tell us a little more about what you range of formats is, and indeed how many frames/rolls you're looking to scan (roughly)? I'd go as far as saying the majority of people in here scan their own, with some exceptions, and typically get good results from home scanning.
 
Loads of 135 mostly C41 , some BW , E6 some 120 roll . Years of it. !!!
 
Then in which case, I'd suggest you just need to decide which you value more; your time or your money. As @ChrisR has mentioned, getting this done will cost you a fortune in one or the other. As you have no 5x4 to scan, a relatively cheap flatbed scanner such as an Epson V500 will do a perfectly good job of scanning up to 120, but there is a learning curve, even for good, basic results. It will be a slow process though, and I'd suggest that getting a second film holder for each format would be a good idea, as you can be loading one up while the other is scanning. This will save you the loading time for each holder literally every time you scan two or more loads of a complete holder, which will amount to a non-negligible amount of time!
 
Loads of 135 mostly C41 , some BW , E6 some 120 roll . Years of it. !!!

In my initial catch-up scanning, I did approximately 150 rolls of 135, roughly half black and white, half C41, with a few E6 and a few Kodachrome as well (there may possibly have been some pre-C41 stock in there too; it dated from the late 60s to the early naughties). I tackled it as a long term project, maybe one or two rolls an evening. ISTR we were watching a lot of commercial TV at the time, and I'd nip upstairs in the commercial breaks and scan another couple of frames. As you can guess, it took the best part of a year to get through that backlog. Some packets ended up being scanned several times, if they were important subjects and I learned a bit more about handling colour, dust spotting etc after the initial scan.

I think you might get better throughput on an Epson V500 than on my Plustek 7500i, as the latter scans one frame at a time with manual advance, while the Epson lets you scan multiple frames. OTOH the Epson 35mm holders are pretty awful if you've got curly film. I found that although most of the cut film was OK, having spent decades flat, some screwed up corkscrew fashion, with a curl fighting against the flattening!

By far the worst issue I found was the appallingly casual treatment (by me, I assume) of older negatives. Usually not sleeved, jammed together in the flap of an envelope. Recently I started filling in some gaps I found. One film, documenting the period around the birth of my son, had strips glued to the side by whoever did some prints; I suppose they were for ease of handling. I had to get them off so the strips could go into the film holder... and in the process tore the first known negative of my son across the top corner!

For the initial set, I too had to decide between outsourcing and doing it myself. One thing that moved me towards the latter was that the cost of outsourcing meant I would have to be selective, which would be difficult enough when viewing negatives. But I though extracting film strips and sending them off in bulk would result in masses of images that were hard to associate with anything, and a massive filing problem. Doing it myself, I was able to use clues written on the envelopes, dates, film stock etc to help. I try (now but not always then) to identify the year, approximate date or sequence within the year, film stock, camera if known, place or event, in the file name for each envelope of film.

I started out using Silverfast 6 SE that came with my scanner, but eventually changed to Vuescan Pro, which quite a few people here use. However others here seem quite happy with Epson Scan, so you could experiment with that at first, at least.

Slides could be a problem as they were often extract from their original sequence to be shown in projected slideshows. For some Agfa and Fuji slides in plastic mounts there were very few clues as to what was what. Kodachrome and Ektachrome tended to be in nice cardboard mounts that were more likely to have clues written on them. If not I found the sequence numbers and their colour (red or grey) really useful.

By the way, I found this scanning an immensely rewarding process, during which I discovered things from my past that I had completely forgotten about. I also found the internet in general, and this forum in particular, very useful in identifying locations. When all else fails, load up foogle maps and study the shapes of the horizons from street view or panoramio pics!

So, good luck, and do please share a few of the results with us, whichever way you go.
 
I had to scan a load of negatives a few years ago, and I haven't attempted going back and dealing with all the rest. It was very time consuming. On the other hand, I wouldn't have been prepared to pay the costs involved in sending them out. DIY also meant, as Chris said, that I preserved easily what was what - my negatives are in ring binders with a contact sheet, and the sheet has the dates and subjects written on. As many were taken at sports matches, dates and teams were important information. It may be that you have similar bits of information associated with the negatives.

I started scanning over 10 years ago and found VueScan better than EpsonScan or Silverfast for my purposes. All three programs are undoubtedly better now, so I couldn't say whether I'd make the same choice today; VueScan still does all that I want or need. The most important point all those years ago was that VueScan was the only one that let me save the raw file from the scanner, which let me experiment with settings without incurring the (in those days, with that 512K RAM computer, and 5x4 negatives) 4 hours scan time :eek: to try a small adjustment.

One point not brought up is what you want to use the scans for; you will undoubtedly extract more information from the negatives if you use a dedicated film scanner or a drum scanner, but both are more expensive (much more expensive in some cases) than an Epson flatbed which in my experience will let me produce prints from 35mm as big as any I'd contemplate making in the darkroom. Even my old Kodachromes - although there I'd back my Cibachrome prints against the scanner (but Cibachrome is no more :().

For most people and most uses, an Epson flatbed would be the simplest way to go. I found that letting the scanner run with a full set of 24 negatives was far faster than the individual attention required to use a slide copier with a DSLR.
 
For most people and most uses, an Epson flatbed would be the simplest way to go. I found that letting the scanner run with a full set of 24 negatives was far faster than the individual attention required to use a slide copier with a DSLR.

Which level of Epson was that, Stephen? IIRC the V500 will only let you do one film strip (4, or 6 if you're lucky) at a time...
 
All the Epsons I've had did 24 - I know I had the 3200 and I think that there was an earlier model I used before that; 2400 sounds familiar, but then I had a 2400 printer... The 3200 was swapped for a 4800, then a 700 and finally an 850. I don't think Epson went in for smaller scanning areas until the later low end models. I was certainly scanning 5x4 back in 2007 - I just checked the creation date on a raw file from then.
 
Yes, I'd forgotten the DSLR option, which I've never tried. Very quick on a per-frame basis, no doubt, once set up. Still leaves you with C41 negative inversion and the associated colour problems. Good basis for using ColorPerfect, potentially. There are some threads around on how to do it...

@Eugene T ColorPerfect is a plugin for Photoshop (or Elements, maybe some others) that supposedly does a much better job of colour inversion than most scanner software does. You have to scan the negative as a positive with a flat (un-corrected) scan, edit it in PS, call CP and do the inversion there. I did a thread about some poor scans just after joining this forum, and someone helped by inverting my image with ColorPerfect. I was excellent (though huge). However, with the ravages of time (and Ph0t0Bucket) there are no images in the thread, so I won't link it here until (unless) I go back and fix it up...
 
Which level of Epson was that, Stephen? IIRC the V500 will only let you do one film strip (4, or 6 if you're lucky) at a time...

The v500 will do two quite long strips so I guess it depends how they've been cut. Being able to do 24 in one go would be big advantage though.
 
This is the thread I mentioned about some scanning problems I was having in 2012, with the images restored, and now hosted here on TP! I think it's worth a read to see one image with several different treatments...
 
Thanks for the replies , very interesting . Good Lord , thats a lot of reading i,ve just done here and a lot of info to assimilate , i think i,ve made up my mind though and do it myself !!! More control .
I have about two cardboard box loads of material , average removal box size and a whole host of memories in them , family , places and people , events etc ., i think its going to take me quite a while.
Archiving never crossed my mind 30 or 40 years ago. And yes i too have Cibachrome prints 16 x 20 and my own B&W prints and Kodachrome ( it hurts to think of what we have lost )
So i suppose the next thing is to research which scanner suits the application and the software . It would be nice to think of having a flexable system like an open source package but would it be as good as a big name . Something that evolves and the manufacturer cant pull the plug on. I might be talking BS here i dont know because i,m totally outside of digital stuff . I just dont want to buy a piece of kit that might not be supported in coming years ?.
 
If you choose Vuescan Pro for your scanning software, you can be reasonably confident, as it supports hundreds of different scanners, and you get lifetime upgrades. If you went with Silverfast (which is arguably more powerful) it will cost you more and only support the one scanner; buy another scanner and you'd need to buy the software again. When I had to choose a replacement for Silverfast 6 (which stopped working on a MacOS upgrade) the upgrade fee to SF 8 was more than the cost of Vuescan Pro, so no brainer.

I suppose we all have to remember though that Hamrick is a small company and may be affected as the owner gets, um, older?

The Epson scanners are pretty robust, from what I hear...
 
I haved ring-binders full of 35mm film taken over the years. I bought a dedicated film scanner in Y2K instead of a then pretty dire as well as expensive Direct-Wigitral camera.. some E6 chems and packed away the enlarger... err... yeah! Its actually taken almost 20 years for the computers to catch up to some-where near the capability of the scanner, and getting 10MPix scans from each frame, it took well over a decade for Direct digital cameras to get close to the resolution... and still there's more on the film that the scanner cant extract... slowly... very very slowly!

The dedicated film scanner does make wonderful reproductions, and using modern computers, that can handle it's SCSI interface, and software to suit, does let it 'breath', but its still SLOW. Very very slow... and that ISN'T in the hardware.......

Biggest issue is in the organisation; keeping tabs on strips of negs scanned, and ones to be done. making them clean and as dust free as you can before loading them in a trap, and putting that in the machine..... it all takes time. Take careful note!

Now, about ten years ago, I bough one of these little web-cam scanners from Maplin.... about £30 or so at the time ISTR. Suggested 16Mpix output..... which it does... but at dire colour depth and with a heck of a lot of interpolation.... actual electric eye, I think is only something like 3 or 4Mpix..... BUT does deliver pictures, and does do it pretty fast..... and shrunk to 1000px on the long side for almost all web-display/upload purposes, it's actually very useful.... and quick...... though still big overhead in time organizing and prepping the strips to go through it......

IF you just want to see what you got..... and I have to say, reviewing a heck of a lot of my own, there's a wealth of "Why did I bother" ones..... its quick, convenient and reasonably easy... and I would point you in that direction to get started... you may never need get any more pretentious about the job, especially if most of what you scan is just going to be web-displayed.

What I WILL say, is if you have hoards of frames to do.... probably much more important than the scanner is the storage.. you need lots and lots and lots of it.

Looking at the file-info of my scanns directory, out of scanner each frame makes a scan-file about 60Mb a time..... that's for something aprox 36oox24oo px, or about 8Mpix res... in Photo-Shop 'Raw' psd format, at high colour depth.... they just get bigger from there, as you tidy them up and de-cratch and de-speckle and such, and typically most frames on the hard drive after basic touch-up are over 100Mb... and only shrink back down when 'compiled' to a compressed consumer format like JPG for display only shrink down maybe 1/10th to about 10Mb, without adding more compression, and or down-sizing the pixie count......

Do you save raw scans? Do you save 'worked' scans? Do you only archive final display images? And along the way, what format and how good for any of them?

I have a little external 'pass-post' hard drive, I use as working storage for what I scan, to keep it off the main computer, it can clog very very easily. That is 500Mb, and normally completely full, and has no where near 'all' the photo's I have scanned from my binders, let alone everything in the archive!

But having undertaken a project of this size, trying to digitise my back-catalog.,.... that is where I'd advise you start.. no point scanning them if you have no where to store them, and or no-one is going to look at them after..... Make sure you have the storage space, and think long and hard about where they may get looked at, and how hard.

In that, for making 'proofs' for quick and easy review, a cheap web-scanner, is probably as good as anything, NOT getting you bogged down in ultimate resolution, or colour depth or anything, just giving you neg 'lifts'# to look at and review and decide whether you actually even need anything better from, even if it might be made.... there for a few headline photo's taking the strips to the pro geared up to do them, might not be so exhorbitant a cost, and give you that high quality reporduction you want, for least cost or hassle.... other wise you can spend an inordinate amount of time chasing ultimates, and getting tangled in piles and piles of neg strips, not knowing where you are with whats done and not done, re-doing ones you are sure could be recovered or done better and wondering why you have encountered a blue-screen of death, when the scanner finally fiulls up all the cache space on the hard drive!

Ie as a toe in the water excersise, its cheap, easy and helpful to discide what may or may not be more or less use or more or less important to you in the entirity of the project.. but that IS what you need consider, the entirity of the project and what you hope top achieve, NOT the variouse merits of individual bits of hardware that are only a small bit of the job overall.
 
Yes i read that advice , the bit about where its all stored is what i did not think of !!! = more hard drives , data storage devices hmmm , i need to have a think about this exercise before investing .
You said you bought one from Maplin years ago, things have moved on since then , i,m not out of touch with digital i,m completly out of touch !!!
However as a very cheap 35mm frame scanner of reasonable quality for uploading pictures onto the web do you have any suggestion for two or three brands . I think this might be a point where i can start learning .
 
Yes i read that advice , the bit about where its all stored is what i did not think of !!! = more hard drives , data storage devices hmmm , i need to have a think about this exercise before investing .
You said you bought one from Maplin years ago, things have moved on since then , i,m not out of touch with digital i,m completly out of touch !!!
However as a very cheap 35mm frame scanner of reasonable quality for uploading pictures onto the web do you have any suggestion for two or three brands . I think this might be a point where i can start learning .

I would stay away from "cheap 35mm scanners". While quality may have improved since I had one, they are generally simply a 5 mp camera of unknown quality in a (possibly light-leaking) box. You'd be better going for one of the DSLR digitising approaches that there are several threads about on here and elsewhere.

On the one I had, black and white worked OK, except for the light leaks. For reasons I've never quite understood, digitised slide film was horrible; the contrast was all over the place and they tended to have significant a cyan or magenta cast. Colour negative was the worst. The box did "invert" the negatives, but since it had no idea which film stock was used, the results were very poor. It might be better to digitise them as positives and invert them in something like ColorPerfect.
 
The Maplin web-cam scan I bought, maybe ten years ago, isn;t that bad.... I'm inclined to agree with CrisR's sort of suggestion, B-U-T, it all depends how preciouse you want to get about the business... and from what I have seen, I dont think that the technology has moved on an awful lot anywhere... as far as web-cam-scanners go, seems that they have either got cheaper, or bolted on more gee-gaws like preview screens or ~SD slots on the box..... the (barely) Acceptable-Quality-Level hasn't much changed.... and it's probably not much different further up the market with dedicated scanners, TBH. As said, my 20 year old Scanwit chucked out 10Mpix scans; its SCSI interface is no slower and probably faster than a contemprary USB plug, and with more up-to-date scanner software allowing it to breath, its not far behind anything more modern, just lower on pixie count, which is largely irrelevent when nearly everything will ultimately be down-sized for display purposes anyway.

It IS a matter of whats YOUR Acceptable Quality Level... and how much time and effort you have and are prepared to devote to the deal.....

A cheap web-cam scanner, then may be no great shakes, BUT, as a toe in the water, to get you going, and learn the ropes, and discover how much effort is involved, not just in the actual scanning, but the cleaning and organising of negs, and the sorting out of Digi-Filies after, its as good a place to start as any, and decide whether you actually need or want 'better' and if so, how much.. and how much you are prepared to put in to get them.

Camera Scanning? Using a DSLR and macro lens and light-box or slide duplicator lens? It's an option, and can deliver very high quality scans... IF you have the time, and the patience. Small niggle with slide duplicator option is that intended for a 35mm camera, you wont be able to get a full-frame dupe to Crop-Sensor digital.. you might use pano-stitching to compile a number of sections, and they can have wonderful pixie counts... but even bigger chunk of 'faff' to do. I have used it pretty successfully, most noteably for 110 and Minox negs that dont suffer the crop-factor-connundrum and can be camera scanned in one shot.... and once you have found good base settings for the light source you can do a 'batch' in not too inordinate time.. but is a faff. Fine for a small number of negs, as I had in the Minox and 110 negs in the archive, but I wouldn't like to have to do hundreds of them.

So, answering question posed, NO I don't really have any suggestions or reccomends as to make or model of Web-Cam-Scan, or indeed other possible hardware.... if I were to go looking for another one.... I would ignore the quoted Mpix outputs, they are inflated by interpolation, to flatter; I'd look for one that actually quoted the cameras resolution. I would probably avoid anything with an LCD preview screen or SD slot or other bolt on... I'm want the pictures digitised, and on my computer.... that has a screen and a hard drive.... why do I need another of either? So, basic, simple, and CHEAP would be my priorities... and after giving it a whirl... IF dissapointed with what made it to Farce-Broke.... THEN I might start looking for something a bit 'better' or trying to get crafty with a macro-lens and light-box or slide-dupe lens or other alternative.... BUT... having given it a whirl.... I'd know by then that the scanner itself is still but tiny part of the project, and having the HD space for scans, having the organisation to clean and keep track of negs, and the time and patience to clean scans in post-process is by far ans away the bigger bit of the job.
 
Right ok , thanks for the feedback . Looks like a trawl of the internet reviews , this could take some time to get to some choices . I dont have any digital camera kit at all and probably never will , more interested in getting my negs and slides onto storage using a scanner and just want to start experimenting in a small way first but i dont want to buy a piece of hyped up rubbish , its a real jungle out there for technical kit .
 
I think that you might be over-ambitious in wanting to scan loads of stuff. Not that it can't be done but it could be a huge commitment, and life is short.

I'd think about jobbing it out but then there's the financial consideration.

I'd rather do it myself to get the maximum control over the results, but then there's the time it swallows up.

You could decide what quality level is acceptable to you (eg if you want to make big digital prints), then refer backwards from that to find what desktop scanners are going to provide that level. A dedicated film scanner for mf should also scan 35mm but will likely be expensive. Older versions are quite likely to have scsi connections, which are a bit awkward these days. Some had firewire. Later models are more likely to be usb, which makes things easier.

Then there can be compatibility issues between the software that came with older scanners and current os's, tho' vuescan can provide a workaround (if you can stand it's interface).

You could use a current model flatbed for the mf originals. Best to partner that with a 35mm film scanner tho' to get the best out of 35mm.

Colour neg is the hardest to get right in terms of the orange mask complicating the colour reversal.

Scanning isn't just about ppi, but about the extraction of tonal values. A cheap scanner will have a limited range, leading to blown highlights / blocked or noisy shadows.

Scanning can be a black art. I've done quite a bit of it (to a standard enough for exhibition).
 
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I prefer to do it myself . This could take months to find the scanner for the job. Well we will see Thanks for the help and advice people.
 
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