Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

Status
Not open for further replies.
If anyone thinks electric cars will be cheap to run forever they're deluded, once they get the battery technology right and they start being driven in serious numbers something will have to change , say fossil fuel cars average road tax is £300PA and they put £40 a week in fuel , what's the duty and VAT on that, £30 so call it £35-£40 a week to the treasury, that money is going to have to come from somewhere
 
ianp5a said:
Their emissions is a big problem. And highly acute in cities. Which can't go on. So it's not like they are trying to solve a non existant problem.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree at all with that (is it unreasonable to ask for a little more precision in language?). I do have a problem with shifting the pollution and despoilation to someone else's country in order to fix ours.
 
Last edited:
So pretty much confirming that the infra structure isn’t in place to support massive increases in EV ownership.

I think I’ll just keep filling my diesel car up at any time of day for a while.
 
Gaz J said:
So pretty much confirming that the infra structure isn’t in place to support massive increases in EV ownership.

I think I’ll just keep filling my diesel car up at any time of day for a while.
Click to expand...

Me too, for a long while!
 
Gaz J said:
So pretty much confirming that the infra structure isn’t in place to support massive increases in EV ownership.

I think I’ll just keep filling my diesel car up at any time of day for a while.
Click to expand...

You can charge your EV at any time of day, if you wish. Even with increased tariffs, it'll be cheaper per mile than diesel. And you can do it without leaving home as opposed to driving to a filling station.
 
decigallen said:
You can charge your EV at any time of day, if you wish. Even with increased tariffs, it'll be cheaper per mile than diesel. And you can do it without leaving home as opposed to driving to a filling station.
Click to expand...

It’s not about whether you can do it it’s about the fact that we probably don’t have the capacity in the grid for, let’s say a couple of million EVs, to be charged at peak time.

The government already acknowledge that EVs won’t be taking over the world. They have no intention of banning IC engines by 2040.
 
nilagin said:
Best hurry up then.
UK electric car drivers face paying more to charge at peak times | Environment | The Guardian
Click to expand...
Typical doomsday title. The actual article says peak times to be "between 4pm and 6pm". No one charges their EV during that time.

It's not electric cars that need to worry, all EV have built-in charge timers. It is all households without battery, meaning everyone who uses electricity. There is already tariff that offers this type of pricing to reward overnight battery (EV or house battery) charging at extremely cheap 6p/kWh and penalise peak time usage at 30p/kWh.
https://www.greenenergyuk.com/Tide

wack61 said:
If anyone thinks electric cars will be cheap to run forever they're deluded, once they get the battery technology right and they start being driven in serious numbers something will have to change , say fossil fuel cars average road tax is £300PA and they put £40 a week in fuel , what's the duty and VAT on that, £30 so call it £35-£40 a week to the treasury, that money is going to have to come from somewhere
Click to expand...

That money can come from rapid charging (different to home charging) and big battery pollution tax. For example, in 2040:

- Charles the commuter drives 20 miles a day, bought a 20kWh car. He charges at home and with a modest battery, pays £50 a year in road & pollution tax and no charging tax.
- Tim the travelling salesman drives 400 miles a day, bought a 100kWh car. He rapid charge once a day, pays £300 a year in road & pollution tax and £20 rapid charge to recover 200 miles, £8 of which is tax (calc: 60kWh energy for a very inefficient 3.33miles/kWh car using expensive 30p/kWh energy = £12)
- Tom the other travelling salesman drives 300 miles a day, bought a 120kWh car. He doesn't need to rapid charge, but pays £350 a year in road & pollution tax.
- Owen the old guy occasionally drives 100 miles a day, got a 60mpg car (even though 40kWh EV at £60 pa tax is perfect for him). He will have to pay £400 a year in road & pollution tax, and £30 in fuel to recover 200 miles due to ever increasing fossil fuel prices. (at current rate, £2 per litre is highly conservative estimate in 2040)

The treasury receives similar amounts in total, but differently from different people. You drive more or buy unnecessarily big battery you pay more. Simples :) But every EV owner wins if they charge at home. There's simply no way to tax home charging, because you can always charge by not using the metered EV charger and dangle a cable out of your window.

For Charles, he can buy a £8000 Nissan Leaf 24kWh right now, and cut his commute from £2 a day to 60p, zero road tax on the car and zero congestion or T-charge. Right now for Charles is similar to when BoE base interest rate was at 0.25%, if you are able to take advantage of savings (from remortgage or buying EV), it's foolish not to!
 
ianp5a said:
Yep. A reason not to move forward and stay with the old smokey world. Even though advancements in battery technology are solving that, and moving to new materials.
Click to expand...

So you're saying as long as it's someone else's problem...

When the tech is there, with the clean production of materials/batteries then great. Otherwise until then I wish people would stop proclaiming electric cars to be the saviour of the environment and air quality.

Otherwise you're just shifting the issue..
 
Gaz J said:
How do you know no one does that.
Click to expand...
No sane person will do that. Because why not spend 5min to learn to setup the charge timer? You'd save 50% by charging at night (on current E7 tariff), more when smart meters start being fully utilised like that Tide tariff.

neil_g said:
So you're saying as long as it's someone else's problem...

When the tech is there, with the clean production of materials/batteries then great. Otherwise until then I wish people would stop proclaiming electric cars to be the saviour of the environment and air quality.

Otherwise you're just shifting the issue..
Click to expand...
Lifetime EV carbon emission is much lower than equivalent car.
https://www.ft.com/content/d14b6c8a-c61e-11e7-b2bb-322b2cb39656
https://www.transportenvironment.or...iesels-even-when-powered-dirtiest-electricity

Although EV is shifting majority of the pollution elsewhere, it is the saviour of the environment, albeit by a small amount at current technology level. Saviour of air quality is a given considering there's zero tailpipe emission.

But remember, 10% more renewable on the grid, every EV is 10% greener overnight. Whereas 10% higher fuel efficiency on new engine in cars, it is less than 0.1% reduction in national emissions.
 
Does that take into account manufacturing though? And the practices involved in mining the battery materials.

Lets not forget that its not just co2. Go back a page and read some of the stuff such as dumping acidic sludge back into the ground.
 
wuyanxu said:
Typical doomsday title. The actual article says peak times to be "between 4pm and 6pm". No one charges their EV during that time.
Click to expand...
You can't know that for sure. What about people who have been out all day, need to recharge ready to go out again in the evening. What about people who work odd hours and that encompasses the only time they get to recharge?
 
I love these "no-one does this or that" or "everyone does this or that", as soon as I see or hear that I know the person spouting off is talking out of their backside.
Example "everyone loves a curry", do they? well me and my Mrs dont so the argument has just been sunk, how about using "most" instead, which is likely to be far more accurate?
 
wuyanxu said:
Typical doomsday title. The actual article says peak times to be "between 4pm and 6pm". No one charges their EV during that time.

It's not electric cars that need to worry, all EV have built-in charge timers. It is all households without battery, meaning everyone who uses electricity. There is already tariff that offers this type of pricing to reward overnight battery (EV or house battery) charging at extremely cheap 6p/kWh and penalise peak time usage at 30p/kWh.
https://www.greenenergyuk.com/Tide



That money can come from rapid charging (different to home charging) and big battery pollution tax. For example, in 2040:

- Charles the commuter drives 20 miles a day, bought a 20kWh car. He charges at home and with a modest battery, pays £50 a year in road & pollution tax and no charging tax.
- Tim the travelling salesman drives 400 miles a day, bought a 100kWh car. He rapid charge once a day, pays £300 a year in road & pollution tax and £20 rapid charge to recover 200 miles, £8 of which is tax (calc: 60kWh energy for a very inefficient 3.33miles/kWh car using expensive 30p/kWh energy = £12)
- Tom the other travelling salesman drives 300 miles a day, bought a 120kWh car. He doesn't need to rapid charge, but pays £350 a year in road & pollution tax.
- Owen the old guy occasionally drives 100 miles a day, got a 60mpg car (even though 40kWh EV at £60 pa tax is perfect for him). He will have to pay £400 a year in road & pollution tax, and £30 in fuel to recover 200 miles due to ever increasing fossil fuel prices. (at current rate, £2 per litre is highly conservative estimate in 2040)

The treasury receives similar amounts in total, but differently from different people. You drive more or buy unnecessarily big battery you pay more. Simples :) But every EV owner wins if they charge at home. There's simply no way to tax home charging, because you can always charge by not using the metered EV charger and dangle a cable out of your window.

For Charles, he can buy a £8000 Nissan Leaf 24kWh right now, and cut his commute from £2 a day to 60p, zero road tax on the car and zero congestion or T-charge. Right now for Charles is similar to when BoE base interest rate was at 0.25%, if you are able to take advantage of savings (from remortgage or buying EV), it's foolish not to!
Click to expand...
Neil, drives a Focus RS, pays £140/year VED, pays £0 congestion charge, doesn't give a FF about how much petrol it uses or how much it costs and enjoys driving the car immensely ( it amazes him that it still manages an average of 31mpg) Plus he doesn't have to worry about plugging the car in overnight.
;)
 
nilagin said:
You can't know that for sure. What about people who have been out all day, need to recharge ready to go out again in the evening. What about people who work odd hours and that encompasses the only time they get to recharge?
Click to expand...

These sound like outliers rather than the norm, though. Most users will have the foresight to charge off-peak. Secondly, you have to take into account that EV range is increasing rapidly. Within a couple of years, 300-mile+ ranges will be the norm. How many people will go out and do 300 miles and need to charge again before the evening? Many ICE cars will have a 3-400 mile range. It's not in the realms of fantasy to imagine many EVs with 600+ mile range within the next decade - the median range of EVs is currently increasing at around 50% every 5 years.

neil_g said:
Does that take into account manufacturing though? And the practices involved in mining the battery materials.

Lets not forget that its not just co2. Go back a page and read some of the stuff such as dumping acidic sludge back into the ground.
Click to expand...

It's a fair point. But that fuel for ICE cars must be extracted from the earth too, and it isn't a pretty sight. Even if we assume all EVs are being powered by electric from oil-fired plants, they use less energy per 100km and much less CO2 is produced to power them. CO2 produced in manufacturing EVs (which is decreasing as the tech becomes more mature) is offset greatly over the lifecycle of the vehicle.

And shifting pollution somewhere else isn't a bad thing in some respects. The gases produced for electricity are generally not released near people and less and less electricity is being generated by fossil fuels. The fumes produced to power an ICE car are most densely concentrated in areas with a large population. While the effect of dangerous gasses such as CO2 is global, there are also local effects on health that ICE vehicles contribute to that EVs do not.

In terms of mining, recycling of batteries in the future should mean less environmental impact over time. EV batteries are over 90% recyclable. And while recycling rates for li-on batteries is low (thanks to AA battery waste), when it comes to EV batteries I'd expect it to be incredibly high. Not to mention systems setup to reuse old EV batteries to store renewable energy.
 
nilagin said:
Neil, drives a Focus RS, pays £140/year VED, pays £0 congestion charge, doesn't give a FF about how much petrol it uses or how much it costs and enjoys driving the car immensely ( it amazes him that it still manages an average of 31mpg) Plus he doesn't have to worry about plugging the car in overnight.
;)
Click to expand...

Would such a thing really cause you to 'worry?'
 
yamahatdm900 said:
I do wonder how many people in typical City/town centres as well as some of the new build housing actually have the ability to have the car outside their dwelling to actually charge it up?
Click to expand...
Less than 50% have access to off street parking according to the figures mentioned in this thread.
 
When EVs are more common, charge points on the street will become more common. IF ICE drivers respect the spaces, most people should be able to charge their EVs on the street if they don't have their own charge points at home.
 
PaulF said:
Less than 50% have access to off street parking according to the figures mentioned in this thread.
Click to expand...

Thats a lot less than I thought to be honest

Nod said:
When EVs are more common, charge points on the street will become more common. IF ICE drivers respect the spaces, most people should be able to charge their EVs on the street if they don't have their own charge points at home.
Click to expand...

I hope you right about respecting the spaces Nod but with my experience of on street parking I fear you won't be.

A fair capital outlay needed for all the infrastructure as well then?
 
yamahatdm900 said:
Thats a lot less than I thought to be honest



I hope you right about respecting the spaces Nod but with my experience of on street parking I fear you won't be.

A fair capital outlay needed for all the infrastructure as well then?
Click to expand...

Having grown up & lived a long time in a city, if you get back and need a parking space, if there's a choice between one that 30sec walk from your door and one that's 2min walk then you're going to pick the one 30sec away. I can't imagine many city-dwellers have off-street parking.
 
Just a thought, what if you are a 2 or more car family and many round my way are, both partners need their cars, one to commute and the other to drop kids off at school then drive off to work etc. How are they going to charge 2 or maybe 3 cars, if they have grown up "children" still at home, maybe also out working, so using the car during the day when they all get home from work or want to do it during this magically cheap off peak time, will the house/street circuit take the load, especially when 3, 4 or more neighbours are in the same boat and all plugging in off peak. All I have heard so far is the likelihood of one car charging up overnight. I really don't think this has been fully thought through as a viable mass replacement for fossil fuel cars.
 
Nod said:
When EVs are more common, charge points on the street will become more common. IF ICE drivers respect the spaces, most people should be able to charge their EVs on the street if they don't have their own charge points at home.
Click to expand...
More assumptions. Why are on street charge points going to be more common, who would be funding that.
Why should anyone, not just ICE drivers park farther away from home? What if the ICE driver is a pregnant woman, disabled or elderly, should they be forced to park farther away from home, carrying shopping just so someone can plug a car in?

There are a few issues with mass adoption of EV's that the EV supporters seem to think that if they say 'when it's more popular X will be the case' as if it's fact which cannot be known and does not do their argument any favours.

EV production is not that environmentally friendly, supporters seem to brush over that. Running cost, including initial cost, isn't on a par with the comparable ICE car.
Things are moving in the right direction but not there yet, and no one here knows when the cross over point will be. Could be a couple of years, could be over 10 years away.
 
MatBin said:
Just a thought, what if you are a 2 or more car family and many round my way are, both partners need their cars, one to commute and the other to drop kids off at school then drive off to work etc. How are they going to charge 2 or maybe 3 cars, if they have grown up "children" still at home, maybe also out working, so using the car during the day when they all get home from work or want to do it during this magically cheap off peak time, will the house/street circuit take the load, especially when 3, 4 or more neighbours are in the same boat and all plugging in off peak. All I have heard so far is the likelihood of one car charging up overnight. I really don't think this has been fully thought through as a viable mass replacement for fossil fuel cars.
Click to expand...

If you have more than one EV in the household, you can have extra charge points. Some chargers will plug into a 13A socket too - albeit at a slower charge rate than a dedicated EV charger.

PaulF said:
More assumptions. Why are on street charge points going to be more common, who would be funding that.
Why should anyone, not just ICE drivers park farther away from home? What if the ICE driver is a pregnant woman, disabled or elderly, should they be forced to park farther away from home, carrying shopping just so someone can plug a car in?

There are a few issues with mass adoption of EV's that the EV supporters seem to think that if they say 'when it's more popular X will be the case' as if it's fact which cannot be known and does not do their argument any favours.

EV production is not that environmentally friendly, supporters seem to brush over that. Running cost, including initial cost, isn't on a par with the comparable ICE car.
Things are moving in the right direction but not there yet, and no one here knows when the cross over point will be. Could be a couple of years, could be over 10 years away.
Click to expand...

5 years ago, on street charge points didn't exist but they do now, as well as being in many car parks - not an unreasonable assumption that as EV use increases so will the number of charge points available to Joe Public. Go back 100 years and petrol was bought by the can...

nilagin said:
What if there is a power cut?
Click to expand...

Same as what happens when the tanker drivers go on strike. Or we'll use one of the ICE cars!

neil_g said:
Is it just me or are most charging points popping up, particularly in service stations, tesla type?

What if you don't have a tesla, presumably you need an adapter (at expense)?
Click to expand...

Not used a Tesla branded charger but I think the plugs are relatively standard. Our Leaf has 2 sockets - one for a "domestic" supply and one for a fast charge. I think that the fast chargers have tethered leads which will plug into the fast charge socket on the car. And adaptors are available to convert between plug types.
 
Nod said:
If you have more than one EV in the household, you can have extra charge points. Some chargers will plug into a 13A socket too - albeit at a slower charge rate than a dedicated EV charger.



5 years ago, on street charge points didn't exist but they do now, as well as being in many car parks - not an unreasonable assumption that as EV use increases so will the number of charge points available to Joe Public. Go back 100 years and petrol was bought by the can...



Same as what happens when the tanker drivers go on strike. Or we'll use one of the ICE cars!



Not used a Tesla branded charger but I think the plugs are relatively standard. Our Leaf has 2 sockets - one for a "domestic" supply and one for a fast charge. I think that the fast chargers have tethered leads which will plug into the fast charge socket on the car. And adaptors are available to convert between plug types.
Click to expand...
Less than 50% of households have off street parking, don't think they'll be running an extension cable down the street, think of the h&s hazards in that.

I have personally seen a few on street charge points in town centres, and a few in the odd car park, they certainly are not the norm in car parks at the moment. Like you say go back 100 years to see the progress time line of petrol, no one knows the time line for EV's but their supporters seem to believe its all just around the corner.

When the tanker drivers last went on strike not all petrol station brands were affected, you could still get fuel although the queues were a little longer. Power cut = no car charging.

Tesla superchargers can only be used by Tesla cars, and they are only free on the more expensive models we're you have basically pre paid for charging on the price of the car. Weren't they looking into putting a cap on the amount you could use them.
 
nilagin said:
Seeing as I live in a flat which if I am lucky I can park across the road from, the answer would be, yes.
Click to expand...
MK is a rapidly expanding city, many "average" houses that have been built in the last 10 years + have no frontage, the door opens straight onto to the roadside pavement, many of these roads
have width restrictions, as traffic calming, cars are usually parked in designated bays away from the house, sometimes one bay per household, occasionally 2.


MatBin said:
Just a thought, what if you are a 2 or more car family and many round my way are,
Click to expand...
Just like the guy opposite me, Wife has car, he has firms van, the 2 daughters have a car each, and at the moment they have a guest staying.
Their drive is big enough for 2 cars.
Most households here ( an older estate) have 3 cars and drives big enough for 1 or 2 cars.
There as also a "court" where 2 lines of the houses face each other, with a large grassed area between them.
Most have 1 garage in the rear garden, not big enough for your average family saloon, so they park their cars in the road along the 200 odd yard stretch...

As per both points I think town planners need to seriously reassess their motives for saving money and cramming as many houses as possible in the smallest space possible,
if this ideology is to very get off the ground.
 
nilagin said:
What if there is a power cut?
Click to expand...

More and more buildings are installing solar panels and getting batteries. Of the 5 people I know that have EV cars, 2 have Tesla batteries in their home and 4 of the 5 have solar panels. As has been said also, EV range is improving massively. As this happens, you'll find people having to charge their car once a week. Is it likely people will see week-long powercuts? And generally, power cuts are a result of severe weather (where there is forewarning) or planned outages (where there is forewarning). It shouldn't be hard to prepare for that.

I've read about instances where EVs have been used to store renewable energy and then power homes - using the car like a generator. So in effect, during a planned outage, people could keep their home powered (apparently for around 20hrs or so) even when the grid is down - an advantage of owning an EV.
 
Cobra said:
MK is a rapidly expanding city, many "average" houses that have been built in the last 10 years + have no frontage, the door opens straight onto to the roadside pavement, many of these roads
have width restrictions, as traffic calming, cars are usually parked in designated bays away from the house, sometimes one bay per household, occasionally 2.



Just like the guy opposite me, Wife has car, he has firms van, the 2 daughters have a car each, and at the moment they have a guest staying.
Their drive is big enough for 2 cars.
Most households here ( an older estate) have 3 cars and drives big enough for 1 or 2 cars.
There as also a "court" where 2 lines of the houses face each other, with a large grassed area between them.
Most have 1 garage in the rear garden, not big enough for your average family saloon, so they park their cars in the road along the 200 odd yard stretch...

As per both points I think town planners need to seriously reassess their motives for saving money and cramming as many houses as possible in the smallest space possible,
if this ideology is to very get off the ground.
Click to expand...

You're making the assumption that all those 5 vehicles will need to be charged at once. The average weekly mileage in the UK is around 150miles. In the very near future (or now if you buy a Tesla/Hyundai), 300 mile EVs will, for most people, need to be charged once a week. Along with this, you could have your EV plugged in while at work rather than charge at home.

Along with this, there are constant breakthroughs in fast charging and an improved charging infrastructure.
 
decigallen said:
The average weekly mileage in the UK is around 150miles.
Click to expand...
I do almost double that in a day, in my Diesel van and I guess that would be an average figure for van drivers

decigallen said:
You're making the assumption that all those 5 vehicles will need to be charged at once.
Click to expand...
I've no idea what mileage they do but they all come piling back in between 4-6pm.
(It looks like whacky races I should sell tickets :D)

decigallen said:
In the very near future (or now if you buy a Tesla/Hyundai), 300 mile EVs will,
Click to expand...
decigallen said:
Of the 5 people I know that have EV cars, 2 have Tesla batteries in their home and 4 of the 5 have solar panels.
Click to expand...

This is beginning to sound like a very expensive hobby to me! Take photography, you buy a base camera, to see if you like it, then you "Need" an L lens,
Then your body is not good enough so you upgrade that, and oh hang on, more L lenses are required along with a tri pod, flash maybe some studio lights back drops ....
 
Last edited:
decigallen said:
I've read about instances where EVs have been used to store renewable energy and then power homes - using the car like a generator. So in effect, during a planned outage, people could keep their home powered (apparently for around 20hrs or so) even when the grid is down - an advantage of owning an EV.
Click to expand...
Meanwhile you have to find another means of getting to work, going shopping etc. Other than quite a few years ago when people were striking, I have never known planned outages. Most are caused by problems at substations or some thieving halfwits trying to nick cable's for scrap.
 
neil_g said:
Installing solar panels.. what about the (increasing) number that rent?

I dream of only 150 miles a week.. :LOL:

Shock (no pun) as electric vehicles simply do not work for a lot of people..
Click to expand...


We have a small roof which faces East/West rather than South/North so solar panels aren't really a viable option for us (and a friend in the trade has suggested waiting a few years for storage technology to catch up as well as panel efficiency to improve).

We do more than 150 miles per week so have other vehicles for longer (or fun) journeys. The Leaf is for the shorter, urban journeys (for which it's ideal and will continue to be so even if/when it has 1/2 the range it has now.)

As an only car, the Leaf wouldn't suit us but as an extra for fairly specific duties, it does make sense, especially while we can charge for free at Sainsburys (unless some ringpiece CBA to find a space elsewhere!)
 
One of the suggestions to address on-street parking/charging issues is to install charging stations attached to street lights.....

Maybe some of the £billions intended for 'smart' meters should be spent on improving the charging infrastructure across the country?
 
Last edited:
then even the street lights are pretty thinly spaced to the point that there would be cables running all over. trip hazard anyone? plus around here they'd probably get pinched.

at this stage id rather have smart meters than charging points.
 
Maybe dedicated (and policed!) EV charging spaces beside the street lights so equipped? We've got dedicated parking spaces for a "car club" (short term rental for club members) which is policed by the local council.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top