1D Shutter Life - Failure at 20k reasonable?

Uneducated_Rick said:
People keep banging the drum about 200,000 actuations but that is "tested for 200,000 cycles" which sounds to me like Canon fire the shutter 200,000 times to make sure it is working okay and does not fail, not saying it will last on average 200,000 cycles.

Even if it is meant that it lasts 200,000 cycles on average there is no indication of variability; 1, 1000 and 1999 have the same mean and median as 999, 1000 and 1001 yet the number series varies highly.
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If you purchased a new car & was told first service was 10,000 miles would you want to take it in for a new engine or gearbox after 1,000 miles?

I contacted canon at elstree I told them I was a cos member it didn't seam to matter as it took 2 days for them to send out ups label then the service on ups label was standered meaning the collection was wed with the following Mon for delivery. Not a very good service from canon & I'll be telling them so.
 
Canon User said:
If you purchased a new car & was told first service was 10,000 miles would you want to take it in for a new engine or gearbox after 1,000 miles?

I contacted canon at elstree I told them I was a cos member it didn't seam to matter as it took 2 days for them to send out ups label then the service on ups label was standered meaning the collection was wed with the following Mon for delivery. Not a very good service from canon & I'll be telling them so.
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Where do Canon say it should last 200,000 actuations? I quoted directly from the Canon leaflet Stuart linked and I cannot see anything to indicate a reasonable lifetime
 
Under the Sale of goods act..... The item should be of merchantable quality... I have no personal knowlege of Canon products, but do have of Nikon.... In march the sensor of my venerable Coolpix 5700 failed....This was replaced f.o.c. by Nikon my only input was the postage out. Considering this camera was purchased in 2003, that's what I call service...
The camera was returned by courier in 10days.

I am on Nikon No.5 at present and would not change brand.
 
CT said:
It used to be you needed 2 pro quality bodies and a minimum of 3 L lenses to qualify for CPS membership . I'm not sure if it's still the same, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on that 3 day turn around anyway. :D
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They now allow the XXD range but I think you need a 1D or 5D as a main camera. My local rep (Oxford) wouldn't let me qualify a 40D and 50D, despite the canon website saying these were accepted.

So I just need a busted, cheap early 1D just for the serial number :D
 
I can't post a link right now as I'm working from my iphone but google for the canon 1D MKII N white paper at the bottom of page 14 (from memory) it says tested to with stand 200,000 also there's a page on the camera on canon Uk site says the same
 
All it says is they have tested it for 200,000 cycles. They don't say that they guarantee it for that number nor do they imply that the 200,000 figure is a target that all 1D models should meet. I think they only mention it as no other slr with a focal plane shutter has that high a reliability rating, they will see this as a feather in their cap methinks.
 
Paddysnapper said:
Under the Sale of goods act..... The item should be of merchantable quality... I have no personal knowlege of Canon products, but do have of Nikon.... In march the sensor of my venerable Coolpix 5700 failed....This was replaced f.o.c. by Nikon my only input was the postage out. Considering this camera was purchased in 2003, that's what I call service...
The camera was returned by courier in 10days.

I am on Nikon No.5 at present and would not change brand.
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Sale of goods act is only carte blanche for 6 months, after 6 months it is your responsibility to prove that it is a fault with the product not something you may have done to it - so any knocks, bumps or bangs could be blamed.


Canon User said:
I can't post a link right now as I'm working from my iphone but google for the canon 1D MKII N white paper at the bottom of page 14 (from memory) it says tested to with stand 200,000 also there's a page on the camera on canon Uk site says the same
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Yes, but I quoted what it said, then the second time told you to read my quote which you obviously still haven't done. Itdoesn't say it is tested to withstand 200,000 it says it has been tested 200,000 times, it gives no indication of how long it should last.
 
neil_g said:
has everyone missed the bit where he said canon reckon its done 140k or am i being silly?

:shrug:
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You're being silly, it's a different camera/poster! :D
 
Ok if canon think or know most camera shutters will fail before the 200,000 why print this number why not say 100,000 then when they fail it dozen't look so bad & yes reading through different forums there are lots of members posting where their cameras have failed well before 100,000
 
I give up.
 
stats+people that don't understand stats = failure :D

we could start wandering round variation and standard deviation but there's no point
 
Mine failed after three days and something like a couple of hundred shots at most. I guess that I brought down the mean a little.
 
Paddysnapper said:
Under the Sale of goods act..... The item should be of merchantable quality... I have no personal knowlege of Canon products, but do have of Nikon.... In march the sensor of my venerable Coolpix 5700 failed....This was replaced f.o.c. by Nikon my only input was the postage out. Considering this camera was purchased in 2003, that's what I call service...
The camera was returned by courier in 10days.

I am on Nikon No.5 at present and would not change brand.
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not sure you can claim lack of merchantable quality on something that is quite old in tech gear terms even if it has run for only 20k actuations - nikon's behaviour is good, but probably not a legal obligation

disappointing perhaps but doesn't make nikon better than canon, i'm sure there are nikons that have failed in the same way there are many canons that haven't. My 1D's are probably around 250k each

and if nikon are so good, why are you on your fifth? :LOL:
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
People keep banging the drum about 200,000 actuations but that is "tested for 200,000 cycles" which sounds to me like Canon fire the shutter 200,000 times to make sure it is working okay and does not fail, not saying it will last on average 200,000 cycles.

Even if it is meant that it lasts 200,000 cycles on average there is no indication of variability; 1, 1000 and 1999 have the same mean and median as 999, 1000 and 1001 yet the number series varies highly.
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From a statistical point of view, I agree, however, the 1DIII sales gibbins states the following...

"New lighter body with enhanced weather resistance and outstanding reliability: featuring a shutter that's durability-tested to 300,000 exposures"

I don't have the Mk IIn stuff to hand, but assuming it's similar, there is a set expectation that you should get something like 300K exposures out of the camera. Like everything in life, some units may fail after only 1 exposure, some after 1K, some after 400K, but if it fails at significantly below 300K exposures, I would expect Canon to repair at their cost.
 
keirik said:
not sure you can claim lack of merchantable quality on something that is quite old in tech gear terms even if it has run for only 20k actuations - nikon's behaviour is good, but probably not a legal obligation

disappointing perhaps but doesn't make nikon better than canon, i'm sure there are nikons that have failed in the same way there are many canons that haven't. My 1D's are probably around 250k each

and if nikon are so good, why are you on your fifth? :LOL:
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I am on my fifth in the following order F401 198?.... F80 in 2000.... Coollpix 5700.in 2003 (first digital)... D70s. in 2006... first digital SLR..... D300 in 2008.
Now if that isn't brand loyalty, tell me what is.

Before I went Nikon I had an assortment of cameras, from Lordomat, Olympus,
and a stack of Russian, most of which I still have and use(y)
 
pragmatist said:
I bet there are threads out there on Nikon shutters failing below their stated amounts.
Not getting into a Nikon v Canon debate, Just saying i reckon the other side has had these problems too :)
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There was one on a D2H that had over 1,250,000 on its original shutter ... luck of the draw ... this model was known for shutter problem/issue that Nikon would replace FOC, this particular D2H with all the clicks never went in for a replacement ... go figure :shrug:
 
It would be interesting if Canon could confirm whether the camera was originally registered to someone else before you.
Obviously they cannot give out details, but if the camera thinks it is 19k, and somehow Canon have a different number stored somewhere, why?
 
coldpenguin said:
It would be interesting if Canon could confirm whether the camera was originally registered to someone else before you.
Obviously they cannot give out details, but if the camera thinks it is 19k, and somehow Canon have a different number stored somewhere, why?
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I think you're getting the posters mixed up, there are two different stories on this thread.
 
1DMARKII said:
The plot thickens:

Using my downloaded 1D shutter counts from the web its says 19,206 actuations.

Just had a phone call from Canon and they say it has done 140,000 actuations.

Now I am not going to call Canon a liar but it seems I have been stitched up good and proper by the shop I bought it from.
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Possibly I am getting confused, but this is a very confusing post if that is the case!!!
 
Sorry, you may be right but that was the OP and this thread was started last year, it has recently moved on to another poster/camera and it was this 2nd situation I thought you were refering to.
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
Why? All Canon are effectively saying is it has not failed in its first 200,000 actuations, nowhere does it say it should last that long again :bang:
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How many cameras have canon tested the shutters on 1,2,3,4,5 I'm sure if they make a claim that it was tested up to 200,000 they tested quite a number so why should they or almost all live up to this number.
 
Canon User said:
How many cameras have canon tested the shutters on 1,2,3,4,5 I'm sure if they make a claim that it was tested up to 200,000 they tested quite a number so why should they or almost all live up to this number.
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How many times do I need to say this?

The 200,000 is not a target, it is not something to "live up to". All Canon say is every shutter that goes into a camera and is sold has successfully fired 200,000 times without them failing, there is no indication how many fail during this testing and never make it to being sold.

For all we know there are 3 failures for every successful shutter hence the significantly higher price for full frame cameras.
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
How many times do I need to say this?

The 200,000 is not a target, it is not something to "live up to". All Canon say is every shutter that goes into a camera and is sold has successfully fired 200,000 times without them failing, there is no indication how many fail during this testing and never make it to being sold.
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Do you know this to be true? From a QA perspective it's insane. I suspect that you're misreading the information.

Having read the Canon blurb I interpret it to mean that the mechanism has been tested and typically achieves 200k+ as a life-cycle test. Just as car seatbelt mechanisms are stated to last for 100k+ cycles but are not individually tested (each production batch will have a number tested to failure).

Do you not think it ridiculous for Canon to a) spend ages putting components through 200k cycles before use and b) to install components that had already been worn substantially and are therefore more likely to fail mechanically in the near future?

As has been stated by other posters, the 200k figure has most likely been derived from a series of tests conducted whilst proving the shutter mechanism design. From my experience of life-cycle testing it is likely that this is a figure that is reasonably likely to be attained.

On that basis I'd be agrieved if I had a camera fail at 10% of the expected life.

If Canon did put every shutter through 200k cycles I'd expect that the higher end bodies would fail sooner due to the excessive wear put on them in manufacture! :LOL:
 
it's alive said:
Do you know this to be true? From a QA perspective it's insane. I suspect that you're misreading the information.

Having read the Canon blurb I interpret it to mean that the mechanism has been tested and typically achieves 200k+ as a life-cycle test. Just as car seatbelt mechanisms are stated to last for 100k+ cycles but are not individually tested (each production batch will have a number tested to failure).
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Quoted from the Canon EOS 1D MkII N White Paper which StewartR linked and I've already quoted:

"The shutter is tested for 200,000 cycles"

Sounds like they test each one for 200,000 cycles to me.



it's alive said:
Do you not think it ridiculous for Canon to a) spend ages putting components through 200k cycles before use and b) to install components that had already been worn substantially and are therefore more likely to fail mechanically in the near future?
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Only as ridiculous as IKEA using a matress roller press thing to compress a mattress 250,000 times to ensure the springs are good enough.



it's alive said:
As has been stated by other posters, the 200k figure has most likely been derived from a series of tests conducted whilst proving the shutter mechanism design. From my experience of life-cycle testing it is likely that this is a figure that is reasonably likely to be attained.
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The 200,000 figure comes from the quote above. I have yet to find anything from Canon saying that the shutter is expected to last for 200,000 actuations, and even if they did just because it is expected to last that long there is certainly nothing that says what will happen if it fails before then.
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
Quoted from the Canon EOS 1D MkII N White Paper which StewartR linked and I've already quoted:

"The shutter is tested for 200,000 cycles"

Sounds like they test each one for 200,000 cycles to me.
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What they mean is that the shutter design is tested to 200,000 cycles. This test is destructive to the shutter. What actually happens is that they cycle a number of shutters to destruction and then state a statistically viable expected life-cycle.

I understand how you can make the assumption that you have, but I'm afraid that you're incorrect in this case.



Only as ridiculous as IKEA using a matress roller press thing to compress a mattress 250,000 times to ensure the springs are good enough.
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Indeed. If you were to take a matress from the shelf and examine it you would find no sign of any wear. The Ikea testing is conducted as I suggest above. I actually know this for a fact (the same goes for the seatbelt testing), I work in this area of industry.

Think about how many matresses IKEA sells and how long it would take to test each one to 250,000 cycles? How many machines would IKEA have to have in order to keep up with demand? Where are they all? How could they possibly maintain prices low? But more to the point, why would they sell matresses that had been tested almost to the point of destruction when they could sell matresses untested that lasted many years longer??

The same goes for Canon shutters.

The 200,000 figure comes from the quote above. I have yet to find anything from Canon saying that the shutter is expected to last for 200,000 actuations, and even if they did just because it is expected to last that long there is certainly nothing that says what will happen if it fails before then.
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I really hope you're having me on here. Do you really believe that Canon cycle the top end shutters 200k times before sale? Most shutters are expected to last a fraction of that time. How much overspecification would be required in every part to give a reasonable life?

I suppose it would explain why the higher end bodies are so ruddy expensive :LOL:

If you still stick to your guns after this I'll agree to differ. But, seriously, think about the practicality of the manufacturers doing what you suggest. From that perspective alone it's impossible.
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
How many times do I need to say this?

All Canon say is every shutter that goes into a camera and is sold has successfully fired 200,000 times without them failing significantly.
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So canon are fitting used shutters in new cameras well that's what I'm taking from you're above statement!
 
either way I think a 10fps camera failing at 20k would not be what "a reasonable person" would have expected when buying it.
 
Final rebuttal:

If Canon test the shutter design is tested to 200,000 cycles (as it's alive says), and Canon only fit brand new shutters to bodies for sale (as per Canon User and malla1962) then there would be some cameras that fail on their first hundred actuations or that don't work at all - has anyone ever heard of one of these?

I don't believe that Canon would not test each shutter as there would be some, albeit a very small proportion, that would have defects and not work

P.S. "IKEA beds are vigorously tested with 30,000 'doinks' before entering the store", taken from http://www.ikeasouthamptonstore.co.uk/whats_the_question_promo/index.php?comp=2 even if that's not the number they test the design too (I'm sure I remember a number over 250,000) all mattresses get some kind of destructive testing
 
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