Banding: noise or bad sensor?

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shufflemoomin

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Hey everyone,

I hope someone here has some knowledge or experience to help me out. I shoot concerts almost exclusively and I've been using an original 5D recently paired with a Sigma 70-200. In some pictures, but not all, I've been getting what I'd call 'banding'. I'm shooting at iso 3200 and I'm wondering what this banding is as it only appears on the 5D. I've seen it described as simply a form of 'noise' but in some shots it can be very pronounced. I'm trying to figure out if I should have the sensor replaced or whether this is normal noise for the 5D. If you look at the jacket in the following picture, you'll see remnants of it. This is not a pattern on the fabric itself, this is something added by the camera: http://www.kennyswan.dk/image_galleries/Live Music/Beth Hart/_MG_1036.jpg

Anyone familiar with this that can offer any advice or information?
 
have you increased exposure and/or highlights when converting from raw.

iso 3200 is an expanded setting so any artifacts from underexposing or adding fill to the shadows will be increased.

It looks pretty normal for what I've suggested above
 
Can't say I have ever seen noise like that but I am not a Canon shooter. What p.p did you do on the image?
 
I haven't touched exposure or highlights. I'm using Lightroom 4. I've upped contrast to +20, dropped highlights by -22, dropped blacks by -12 and upped clarity by +10. Reducing these to default doesn't affect that banding. The shots are coming out of the camera like this. I can even see it on the camera LCD sometimes, which is unusual for noise.
 
It doesn't have high ISO NR but it does have long exposure NR which I have turned off. I've just never seen ordered noise like this before.
 
Have you tried to clean the sensor at any point?

I have had similar before, used too much cleaning fluid and didn't wipe it all off which left a streak along one edge of the sensor. Another clean sorted it.

You can just about make it out on the left edge of this image. Is it similar to what you are getting?

IMG_1252.jpg
 
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I've never cleaned the sensor, but I did buy the camera used. It's almost certainly noise of some sort and it's not always there in every picture and it's not in the same places each time but it's always lines that cover the image from side to side and always running in the same direction. This site (http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-noise.htm) shows exactly what I'm seeing and claims it to be normal noise in susceptible camera models, but I'd never heard the 5D described as being known for this problem, which is why I wondered if I was experiencing a sensor malfunction of some sort. Maybe I'll call Canon, but I doubt they'd admit to the camera being known for this. I'd love to know if other users of the original 5D have ever noticed this.
 
Looks more like a sticky shutter juddering to me but could be wrong.

Sadly the only way to find out for sure is get it off to Canon for a service.
 
What makes you think it's a sticky shutter? Surely I'd notice that in the performance or a difference in shutter noise?
 
I've taken quite a few ISO 3200 shots but I can't say that I've ever seen that pattern. My first thought was that it may have been caused by boosting the exposure post capture but if you haven't done that I'm stuck.
 
So you're using the original 5D at 3200 with no issues like this? If you push the exposure or shadows, can you make noise appear in this fashion? I've sent an email to Canon for advice, but I'm sure they'll just tell me to pay for a repair regardless, which I don't want to do if I can find out that this is par for the course with the 5D.
 
shufflemoomin said:
So you're using the original 5D at 3200 with no issues like this? If you push the exposure or shadows, can you make noise appear in this fashion? I've sent an email to Canon for advice, but I'm sure they'll just tell me to pay for a repair regardless, which I don't want to do if I can find out that this is par for the course with the 5D.
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If you push it, particularly the shadow part you will certainly see something similar. Even ISO 100 with +3 or +4 adjustment will look just like that.

Have a look if it looks relatively clean at ISO800. A well exposed ISO1600 should clean up with a little NR (+10 ish in LR). I would think that a regular ISO3200 use either requires a recent body or perhaps a faster lens. Being an extension it is nothing else but underexposed ISO1600 pushed once stop in by firmware.
 
Here are two example of what I'm talking about. To see the noise, I pushed two images as far as they could go +5 steps. You can see on the first one that the noise is uniform:
http://kennyswan.dk/files/test1.jpg

You can see in the next image that this odd noise banding is there:
http://kennyswan.dk/files/test2.jpg

Since I'm a concert photographer, it's normal that shots are going to be slightly underexposed if you have poor lighting. I don't mind pushing a shot a little in post because lightroom will deal with uniform noise like the first image with no problems. The banding noise however is much more of a pain. Both of these shots were taken with the same camera, lens, battery and memory card. I've never experienced this on any other camera before.
 
I think you're right. I'll wait and see if they're willing to help. I only paid £350 for the 5D and I get the feeling that any repair won't be cost efficient, which would be a huge shame.
 
No need to go to canon it's normal - you quite often see this type of banding when you go to extended ISOs
 
POAH said:
No need to go to canon it's normal - you quite often see this type of banding when you go to extended ISOs
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Eh?

I'm sat here boosting the hell out of shots to see if I can replicate this. A mormally exposed shot, and by that I mean a smack in the middle exposure, shouldn't do this at ISO 3200 IMVHO. The only way I can get excessive noise is to boost the exposure post capture.
 
I agree. I've shot my 7D at 6400 and pushed those shots almost an entire stop and all I've ever got is standard uniform noise. This is my first time experiencing band noise like this, and I certainly wouldn't expect it at a normal exposure straight out of the camera. Even pushing dozens upon dozens of 7D shots as a test to +5 stops and I've yet to see a single example of this. It's ONLY happening on the 5D. Surely it can't be normal?
 
The lines that you're seeing are not so unusual on the old 5D and I don't think you'll gain much benefit by spending money on it.

I believe that the problem is primarily one of shielding and using high Iso levels means that the banding is amplified too. Certain lenses are worse than others in this respect and may explain why not everybody is aware of it.

Next time you're shooting in similar conditions, test using two different lenses, always use One shot AF (never AI Servo) and wait a short while after focussing before taking the shot.

Bob
 
POAH said:
No need to go to canon it's normal - you quite often see this type of banding when you go to extended ISOs
Click to expand...

I've never seen that with any camera I've ever used.
 
I was using one-shot AF and I've seen the problem on both my Sigma 70-200 and Canon 50mm 1.8. If it was lens related, it wouldn't come and go in some images and then not in others. Every single frame taken throughout that gig, and we're talking hundred upon hunrdreds, were all taken with the same body and lens and it's not on every shot. Can you provide any links that show that this is a known issue with the 5D sensor? Surely this would have been something that Canon would have fixed or recalled? I've seen many concert photographers using 5Ds and I doubt they would be doing so if they were known for ruining images at ISO 1600 & 3200 with severe banding like this.
 
Have you had a look at the sensor just to make sure there's nothing visible? It would at least rule that possibility out.
 
As I said, it's not every image. Some are coming out perfectly smooth with not a drop of noise to be seen and the banding is not even in the same areas when it does pop up. Both of the examples I posted above were taken with identical equipment on the same night.

EDIT: Just to rule it out, I popped the sensor cleaning mode on and had a look. It's spotless.
 
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shufflemoomin said:
..... Can you provide any links that show that this is a known issue with the 5D sensor?
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The following text was posted on the Digital Wedding forum in February 2006. It is a response from Canon USA's then marketing CEO to people who'd raised the issue of banding on the 5D at high Iso's

All of us here in the Camera Division at Canon USA are getting ready to spend the next 10 days in Florida working hard at the PMA show, so time for web monitoring has been somewhat scarce lately. In any event, as promised, Canon Inc. in Japan has indeed been actively investigating the claims of banding under certain conditions with the EOS 5D since the first reports surfaced shortly after the camera was delivered to the market. Here is what we have been told so far:

"There may be cases where random noise or pattern noise [banding] stands out in images taken at high ISO settings. This is because the noise component is also amplified at high ISO settings. Various measures are taken to reduce noise, but the fact is that it cannot be entirely eliminated technologically. We are continuing to work on reducing noise even further."

"The following shooting techniques can reduce or prevent the occurrence of noise."
* Whenever possible, use low ISO settings (ISO 800 or lower)
* For subjects that do not move, use One-Shot AF mode

"Horizontal line noise may be somewhat more noticeable for the following six lenses when compared to other lenses, but horizontal line noise with these lenses can be reduced by replacing parts."

EF85mm F1.8 USM -- Part No. YG2-0199-000
EF16-35mm F2.8L USM -- Part No. YG2-2011-129
EF17-40mm F4L USM -- Part No. YG2-2081-009
EF20-35mm F3.5-4.5 USM -- Part No. YG2-0268-009
EF24-85mm F3.5-4.5 USM -- Part No. YG2-0299-009
EF28-200mm F3.5-5.6 USM -- Part No. YG9-2059-170 or YG9-2059-179

"Going forward, we will continue to work on even further noise reduction in the development of both cameras and lenses from now on. It would be difficult to completely eliminate noise, but we will continue to make efforts to reduce it."

That is all the information we have at present. If there is anything else, we will pass it along.

Best Regards,

Chuck Westfall
Director/Media & Customer Relationship
Camera Marketing Group/Canon U.S.A., Inc.

I hope that statement at least shows you that it's not only you who's seen this problem.

Bob
 
Wow. That sort of sucks. This is not normal noise. Normal noise is not ordered like this. This is a fault somewhere within the camera or sensor itself. This CAN be removed technologically through stricter quality control and better engineering. I'm incredibly saddened that this was all Canon had to say on the issue. Not only for me, who paid a small price for it used but I can't imagine what the original adopters went through if they were experiencing this after paying $3k. Telling people to use ISO 800 or lower and One-Shot AF makes this essentially useless for concert photography. The fact that they admit that AF mode makes a difference means that it's obviously a design issue with noise being generated by internal components, which is inexcusable. Don't provide features like Servo AI and ISO 3200 if they're useless. Seems like I'm stuck with it them. Thanks for all the help and advice.
 
shufflemoomin said:
Don't provide features like Servo AI and ISO 3200 if they're useless. Seems like I'm stuck with it them. Thanks for all the help and advice.
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Neither are useless in isolation and it's a case of all the demons conspiring at the same moment.

Bob
 
The point is that Servo AI and ISO 1600+ are pretty much staples of the music photography world. I guess the 5D will be retired for me. It makes me a little more unwilling and less trusting to spend more money and move up to the mkii now too.
 
The benefit of getting a newer body is that it is capable of going higher up the Iso scale before the problems are likely to occur. If Iso 3200 is enough then it's not going to stress a newer body in the way it does on your 5D

BTW, Native Iso for your 5D is closer to 160 than the 1600 you stated in an earlier post.

Bob
 
I probably still will make the move to the mkii. It's just become way harder to rent them where I live since everywhere is offering the mkiii instead. And by native ISO, I mean an ISO that isn't artificially produced by software and extending a natural ISO of the sensor.
 
Canon Bob said:
EF85mm F1.8 USM -- Part No. YG2-0199-000
EF16-35mm F2.8L USM -- Part No. YG2-2011-129
EF17-40mm F4L USM -- Part No. YG2-2081-009
EF20-35mm F3.5-4.5 USM -- Part No. YG2-0268-009
EF24-85mm F3.5-4.5 USM -- Part No. YG2-0299-009
EF28-200mm F3.5-5.6 USM -- Part No. YG9-2059-170 or YG9-2059-179
Click to expand...

I only have one of those lenses, 20-35mm, and as there were I think several different ones I'll have to check the model number. Certainly never seen anything like this in any of my ISO 3200 shots or any other ISO for that matter. Shame for the OP.
 
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