Beginner Best lighting for flowers in the house or the garden

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Hello! Do people think that additional lighting is needed for photos of flowers and close up photos indoors or in the garden? Sometimes I can get really nice photos outside or near a window but sometimes it doesn't look right. I'm not as good as most people that have been taking photos for many years and im sure that is part of it, but I'm wondering if getting a flash would make things easier or just more complicated? Is there a reason that macro people dont just use big lamps and lights from around the house?

Thanks for your help

Regards, Cakes
 
I see a lot using a on camera flash and an oval diffuser with a hole for the lens to poke through. The white diffuser also helps to bounce a little light back in. I suspect off camera flash with a diffuser or softbox is probably better, but it's down to cost and how seriously you take it.
Lighting on the day also makes a big difference.
 
I don't know anything about taking photos of flowers, but I do know a bit about lighting so I may be able to help with that side of things . . .

Lighting basically has two distinct functions, to create enough light to see by (or to get an adequate exposure) and to create the right quality of light, that is to arrange the lighting so that it comes from the right place and creates light where it creates the best effect. Good lighting is about the right quality of light, not about the quantity of light - although a lot of people just don't get that - so we introduce extra lighting to create the right lighting in the right places, or more correctly to create the right shadows in the right places.

And that's where flash comes in. Flash has the ability to freeze subject movement, which is important with close up shots, because even small movements create large amounts of movement blur.

Flash is also incredibly powerful, compared to ordinary household lamps. This becomes very important with close up shots because the depth of field is extremely limited at macro distances (life size on the sensor or thereabouts) and this requires the use of small lens apertures, which can often mean that the power of flash is needed.

Small flashguns, used off camera, can also get into small spaces. Large household lamps often can't.

And, most importantly, flash has the same colour as daylight. Household lamps don't, and because accurate colour rendition is expensive to produce and isn't needed for ordinary household use, modern (LED or fluorescent) household lamps can't reproduce colours accurately, which I'm guessing is important if you're photographing flowers.
 
I'm no real expert in lighting, but I do take a lot of flower photos. If I'm indoors I will use a flash, 1. Because I can't rely upon the daylight, 2. Because I live in an old house with small Windows and 3. Because I can position the light how i want it.
A flash is always useful to have anyway.
 
it's down to cost and how seriously you take it
(i think i did the quote thing right?) Yes, I think this is important. I see a lot of people buying very expensive equipment and then never using it, I was looking at a flash system for macro today and have some money to spend, but if it is not needed then I might rather get a lens or something else to make a bigger difference to my photos.

But it sounds like people are saying everyone uses flash more than just daylight?

Garry, I have noticed normal lights in the house look very orange

Thank you all for your help

Regards, Cakes
 
Hello Nostromo ( i love your kitty picture!)

I do think relying on daylight is my problem, it means I cant shoot at night or sometimes in the winter too as it gets dark earlier and overcast. I also live in an old house, but with big windows, but with a lot of tree cover so not much light gets in.

I think I will need to research lighting options!

Regards, Cakes
 
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I was looking at a flash system for macro today and have some money to spend
Before spend money out on macro flash equipment, take a look in the macro forum (I think it's in there) at what people are using for flash. It really doesn't need to cost the earth to get good, close up/macro photos with flash.
As an example I use a yonguo 685 flash (under £100 new), I also have a yongnuo 622c-tx trigger, for use off camera. If I use it on camera (mainly for insects and such like) then I will use a Pringle's tube (as in the crisps) to extend the light onto my subject or if I use it off camera I put a small softbox on it. The flash and trigger came too about £115.
I will use a flash outside as well especially if there is a breeze, as the flash will freeze the subject.
Learning lighting might seem a little daunting, but it really isn't that difficult once you have had a play around. Most of the time just think of where the sun is (or would be) and start there. You will probably also need a reflector, but again this can be as simple as using a piece of white paper or card.
Sorry I seen to have rambled on a bit here.
 
Can I ask what a reflector will do? Do you need one of those even if you have a flash?

I found a flash with bendy arms that looks like it does the same thing as a pringles tube to get the light close up for macro but I need to do more research I think.

Regards, Cakes
 
Just make sure you don't buy a led flash, they aren't very powerful.
A reflector can be used on it's own or with a flash. It will bounce some light back into the subject to fill in shadow areas.
As an example (not the best example though as I'm on my phone). The flash is front right and above and the reflector is on the left putting some light back onto the left side of the onions. Without the reflector the shadows would be a lot darker. You could lift the shadows in post processing, but I like to do as much in real time as possible.

This photo is meant to be on the dark side (moody if you like).

2019-04-14_01-45-23.jpg
 
Just to clarify do you want to do macro i.e. really close up, or larger like whole flowers and bouquets? If its larger subjects then there's a bit more to it than just getting a flash. In a lot of circumstances you need to have the flash off the camera as in Dominic's example above and you probably need some sort of stand for it because positioning the light is quite critical. So you need a cable or some sort of remote trigger for the flash. You also need to make the light source large, the easiest way of doing this is to bounce the flash off a wall or ceiling.

Alternatively you can buy daylight bulbs and use those for continuous lighting (just don't tell the lighting guys on here :) ). This might be easer for indoors flowers which aren't moving. I have some of these - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Philips-12...i+bulb+daylight+philips&qid=1569851307&sr=8-1

BTW @Garry Edwards has written a brilliant book on lighting, might be worth getting a copy.
 
For me, Melanie Kern-Favilla is the undisputed queen of flower photography. She uses window light (but you could synthesize this with a large softbox), a largish cardboard box lined with black duveteen (velvet type material - high surface area), and a tonne of little diffusion panels, black cards, white cards and scrims (black mesh). Typically she has the subject just inside the open face of the box and finesses the exposure on various parts of the flower with the scrims and other panels.

https://www.spiffypix.com/
https://www.instagram.com/spiffypix/

She almost always photographs subjects that are a bit past their best - she likes the texture. If you have an account on KelbyOne you can watch Melanie's flower course here:-
https://members.kelbyone.com/course/mfavilla-floral-images/


If you fancy a simpler starting point, a large softbox from the side, against a black background (a background far that's far away) will give you some results that are easy to replicate:-
View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/owenlloyd/5475266174/


I might have had the box open like this:-
http://owenlloydphotography.com/?p=476
 
@sirch above

"Alternatively you can buy daylight bulbs and use those for continuous lighting (just don't tell the lighting guys on here :) ). This might be easer for indoors flowers which aren't moving. I have some of these - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Philips-12...i+bulb+daylight+philips&qid=1569851307&sr=8-1

BTW @Garry Edwards has written a brilliant book on lighting, might be worth getting a copy.[/QUOTE]


I don't want to hi jack the thread but a question which might be relevant to the OP as well as me.
Does anyone have any experience of using LED lights like those referred to with a plug in dimmer switch to vary the light intensity of the individual lights
 
Does anyone have any experience of using LED lights like those referred to with a plug in dimmer switch to vary the light intensity of the individual lights

I don't but you can just use more or fewer bulbs or just put them closer or further away

8-Shooting by Chris H, on Flickr
 
(i think i did the quote thing right?) Yes, I think this is important. I see a lot of people buying very expensive equipment and then never using it, I was looking at a flash system for macro today and have some money to spend, but if it is not needed then I might rather get a lens or something else to make a bigger difference to my photos.

But it sounds like people are saying everyone uses flash more than just daylight?

Garry, I have noticed normal lights in the house look very orange

Thank you all for your help

Regards, Cakes
Normal house lights look orange because light has lots of different colours. As far as cameras are concerned it's called white ballance. This is a something you'll need to learn as a photographer, even outdoor light varies a LOT at different times of day. It's not really complicated but you'll need to check out a few youtube videos or read up on it to get the best out of your camera.
You don't have to use flash. But it is popular with macro (close up) shooters. I have a friend who used to use a bright LED torch with great effect.
As Dominic says flash doesn't need to cost a fortune. The yonguo flash he mentions are amaringly good. I have several mates using them, two prefere them to the much more expensive makeras own flash, I have a similar MCoplus? version that I tend to use more than my big name flash. Last time I looked these were around the £50 mark.
Off camera flash can be bought cheaply these days too, I bought a kit for a friend last week, the transmitter (goes on the camera) and two receivers (they go onto the bottom of the flash) so a 2 flash kt cost me I think under £15, that doesn't include the actual flash guns obviously but for one flash you'd be under a £100 even with a flash, off camera flash trigger, cheap lighting stand and a diffuser.
 
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Normal house lights look orange because light has lots of different colours. As far as cameras are concerned it's called white ballance. This is a something you'll need to learn as a photographer, even outdoor light varies a LOT at different times of day. It's not really complicated but you'll need to check out a few youtube videos or read up on it to get the best out of your camera.
White balance isn't the problem (when shooting digital) because it can be corrected very easily in post production, or at least it can when all of the light is from the same source - problems arise when the subject is lit with different types of light.

The real problem with non-flash continuous lighting sources is CRI and this matters because it's virtually impossible to correct in post processing.
The perfect Colour Rendition Index is 100, and this is naturally present in all flash, daylight and filament lamp lighting. But non=filament continuous lighting such as LED and fluorescent lamps are discontinuous spectrum lights, which means that not all of the colours in the spectrum are included. Specifically, they don't include magenta. It is possible to buy specialised LED lights that are fine for photography, they're used in the movie industry where budgets are massive, but they are incredibly expensive.

The LED lights that are specifically designed for photography typically claim to have a CRI rating of about 90. Some time ago I set out to test all of the LED and fluorescent lights I could and found that each one had a false CRI rating, e.g. most that claimed to be 90 were in fact much lower.
Just to clarify do you want to do macro i.e. really close up, or larger like whole flowers and bouquets? If its larger subjects then there's a bit more to it than just getting a flash. In a lot of circumstances you need to have the flash off the camera as in Dominic's example above and you probably need some sort of stand for it because positioning the light is quite critical. So you need a cable or some sort of remote trigger for the flash. You also need to make the light source large, the easiest way of doing this is to bounce the flash off a wall or ceiling.

Alternatively you can buy daylight bulbs and use those for continuous lighting (just don't tell the lighting guys on here :) ). This might be easer for indoors flowers which aren't moving. I have some of these - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Philips-12...i+bulb+daylight+philips&qid=1569851307&sr=8-1

BTW @Garry Edwards has written a brilliant book on lighting, might be worth getting a copy.
The problem gets even worse with ordinary domestic LED lights, which are produced down to a price instead of up to a high CRI standard. The lights linked to claim to have a CRI rating of 80, which may or may not be true but even if it is true, that figure is far too low for photography. Some of the domestic lights that I've tested are in the 60's, and some security lights are even lower than that. The LED working lights on my offroad car measured at just 37, which is perfectly OK for driving my car in fields but some people use them for photography - I can see why, because they're dirt cheap, bright and battery powered, but the colours are awful.

Why does it matter?
Any light source with a CRI of less than 100 cannot reproduce (render) all of the colours accurately. In particular, greens and blues are stronger, reds become orange and yellows become almost or completely white. And that's the main reason why it's better to use flash or daylight.

Moving on to flash, the very cheapest solution is simply to get a flash that fits on to the camera hotshoe but, as I mentioned earlier, lighting is all about what you light, not how much light there is, so nearly all shots are far better if the flash is placed somewhere different to the camera position. Because of this, it's much, much better to have the flash off camera, triggered by a simple and inexpensive radio trigger.
 
It's still better to get the colours right in camera, and it's something the OP still needs to understand and learn about Garry. Yes you can "fix" it in Photoshop or whatever but it makes sense to start with a good image in the first place.
 
It's still better to get the colours right in camera, and it's something the OP still needs to understand and learn about Garry. Yes you can "fix" it in Photoshop or whatever but it makes sense to start with a good image in the first place.

Garry's talking about setting the white balance when you process the raw data. This isn't a "fix" as there is no white balance at all until you render a bitmap (tiff, jpeg, psd etc) from the raw data (ie the view you see in Lightroom or Capture one etc is a preview bitmap). The white balance you "set" on the camera is just a value embedded in the metadata of the raw file (just like the date) that a raw processor like Lightroom will use for the white balance values when it renders the bitmap, if you don't specify one yourself: it's no more valid than one you choose yourself in the software. If you have multiple different light sources, there is no "right" value for the white-balance, that works for all sources - whether detected by the camera or chosen in post. (Although you can make all of these problems go away instantly in Lightroom by pressing V :p )
 
Garry's talking about setting the white balance when you process the raw data. This isn't a "fix" as there is no white balance at all until you render a bitmap (tiff, jpeg, psd etc) from the raw data (ie the view you see in Lightroom or Capture one etc is a preview bitmap). The white balance you "set" on the camera is just a value embedded in the metadata of the raw file (just like the date) that a raw processor like Lightroom will use for the white balance values when it renders the bitmap, if you don't specify one yourself: it's no more valid than one you choose yourself in the software. If you have multiple different light sources, there is no "right" value for the white-balance, that works for all sources - whether detected by the camera or chosen in post. (Although you can make all of these problems go away instantly in Lightroom by pressing V :p )
The OP is a beginner, they may not have sofyware for raw and may not want to use it.
 
The OP is a beginner, they may not have sofyware for raw and may not want to use it.
Yes and no.
Personally, I take the view that this forum is for everyone, not just beginners, not just for experts, and nobody is a true expert anyway, we all tend to specialise in one type of photography or another and someone who produces fantastic landscape shots (for example) may not understand even the bare essentials of artificial light photography and, moving closer to home, someone who is great at portrait lighting may not know where to start with product photography, and vice versa.

So, many of us try to give "correct" answers that may or may not directly help the OP at his or her current stage in the journey. If the OP in this case doesn't have either the technical understanding or the software to benefit from Owen's contribution
Garry's talking about setting the white balance when you process the raw data. This isn't a "fix" as there is no white balance at all until you render a bitmap (tiff, jpeg, psd etc) from the raw data (ie the view you see in Lightroom or Capture one etc is a preview bitmap). The white balance you "set" on the camera is just a value embedded in the metadata of the raw file (just like the date) that a raw processor like Lightroom will use for the white balance values when it renders the bitmap, if you don't specify one yourself: it's no more valid than one you choose yourself in the software. If you have multiple different light sources, there is no "right" value for the white-balance, that works for all sources - whether detected by the camera or chosen in post. (Although you can make all of these problems go away instantly in Lightroom by pressing V :p )
then he may find it very useful later, and even if he doesn't then at least he will understand the point that you can only correct the overall colour balance in software (at a realistic expenditure of time) and that because of this it's vital to avoid mixing light sources of different colours.

Personally, I tend to bang on about Colour Rendition Index because it's at least as important as colour balance. My views have been informed by years of testing the various and almost always false claims of manufacturers using specialised equipment that not everyone has available, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index
I feel that photographers need to know and appreciate that no lighting equipment other than daylight, flash or the now obsolete filament bulbs have the potential to reproduce all colours accurately. It's always up to the photographer to decide whether "near enough is good enough" and we did have one guy on here, whose dad owns a high volume product photography business, who believed that his LED lighting is wonderful, but when I was producing high end product shots none of my clients would have accepted that premise - which doesn't make me either right or wrong, it just demonstrates what a broad church photography actually is.

I also bang on sometimes about The Scheimpflug Principle, even though today very few photographers use monorail cameras, because it's relevant. As it happens I'll be training someone tomorrow in product photography lighting. Everything there is shot on digital but Scheimpflug is still highly relevant because of the need to shoot some products at angles that are beyond the range of "acceptable" DOF, so a cut-down version of Scheimpflug has to be adopted using a tilt / shift lens to adjust the plane of sharp focus. For people who don't have the right equipment there's always the software option, which includes both image distortion and focus stacking but the reality is that a tilt / shift lens costs far less (when there is volume need for it) than computer time.

And of course we have SK66. Steven clearly has a good understanding of physics and he often gives highly technical explanations that will go way above the heads of many people, but I almost invariably find them to be very helpful. Again, I feel that it's important to give the correct answers, although it may also be helpful to give more succinct answers that everyone can understand too.

For example,
Normal house lights look orange because light has lots of different colours. As far as cameras are concerned it's called white ballance. This is a something you'll need to learn as a photographer, even outdoor light varies a LOT at different times of day. It's not really complicated but you'll need to check out a few youtube videos or read up on it to get the best out of your camera.
You don't have to use flash. But it is popular with macro (close up) shooters. I have a friend who used to use a bright LED torch with great effect.
As Dominic says flash doesn't need to cost a fortune. The yonguo flash he mentions are amaringly good. I have several mates using them, two prefere them to the much more expensive makeras own flash, I have a similar MCoplus? version that I tend to use more than my big name flash. Last time I looked these were around the £50 mark.
Off camera flash can be bought cheaply these days too, I bought a kit for a friend last week, the transmitter (goes on the camera) and two receivers (they go onto the bottom of the flash) so a 2 flash kt cost me I think under £15, that doesn't include the actual flash guns obviously but for one flash you'd be under a £100 even with a flash, off camera flash trigger, cheap lighting stand and a diffuser.
It's true that even outdoor light varies a lot at different times of day. If the OP (or anyone else reading this) really gets into this then there's loads of info available on the web, but there's no need to learn too much about the Kelvin scale or to buy a colour temperature meter, it's probably good enough to say that the colour temperature of flash and daylight pretty well coincide at around 12 noon, so shots taken at that time will match well enough in colour.
 
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