Best settings for motorsport? (Bikes)

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Bill
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I've been reading up on this and I'm getting conflicting advice.

I'll be shooting with a D7100 and 70-200 VRII (first time using both, but I have done motorsport on my old D5100.)

First one said use the 51-point tracking, but then the other said use far fewer. Which is correct? They both make sense in some ways asyou know roughly where the car will be next, so 51 seems a tad pointless and I was told it slows the AF down?

I'll obviously be using AF-C, I've heard that VR is great for panning so I'll leave that on Normal.

I'll also be using a Hoya HD Cir-PL (for the first time).

Needless to say my first attempt at bikes should be an interesting one! :LOL:

Any other advice will be greatly appreciated!
 
I shoot motorsport infrequently - once or twice a year typically - and went to Brands Hatch today to shoot bikes. With a 5D3 and 7D I used a single AF point almost exclusively and only briefly switched to AF point expansion with the 7D when I thought I was having focusing problems. The shots were actually fine once I got home and put my glasses on - I really should have had them with me.

My personal approach to all photography is to use the fewest points necessary to get the job done. The more points you bring into play the more data the camera has to process, the more decisions it has to make and the more potential for it to make the wrong one. With cars and bikes the trajectory should usually be easily anticipated and they will usually feature as significant targets within the frame, offering high contrast and sharply defined marking for the AF to latch onto so IMHO one point should usually be enough. However, you may want to move the selected point about in the frame to meet your compositional needs.

Examples from today using a single AF point....

20130719_095916_1174_LR.jpg


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20130719_114825_1581_LR.jpg


20130719_125256_1882_LR.jpg



As for settings, I used actual focal lengths from 171-600mm equal in 35mm terms to 171-960mm. Shutter speeds ranged from 1/40 to 1/3200, apertures ranged from f/2.8 to f/16 and ISO ranged from 100-200-400 plus a handful at 800. Focus was set to AI Servo (Continuous) and configured to ignore or respond only slowly (i.e. not respond) to obstructions like fencing or trees. Exposures were set manually throughout, so all decisions on exposure were consciously considered and not left to float about at the camera's whim. i.e. I chose shutter speed to control camera shake, subject motion and background blur. I chose aperture to suit shutter speed demands, lens IQ (with 1.4X and 2X TCs in play quite often) and to minimise fence intrusion. ISO ended up wherever it needed to be for the selected shutter speed and aperture. I also used back button AF, which is my usual approach for most things.

No doubt the motorsports pros can advise you better, but that's my system. There's nothing quite like practice and experience to improve results though. My motorsports outings are too infrequent to deliver great results.
 
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Thank you for that.

I was reading on one article on a photography website that the faster the subject the more points required. Since bikes are one of the fastest it automatically made me assume it'd be 51, but I guess not then?!

Some websites are useless!
 
I think the truth is that there are many ways to skin this cat and you need to choose what works for you and your gear.

I'm not saying that adding more points would have lowered my success rate, but it hardly seemed necessary to do so. My experience with BIF has led me to select the fewest points I can in order to maintain track on the bird. Sometimes one point is not enough - swifts for example - and other times one point is plenty. I've applied the same logic to motorsport. If I can keep my point on the vehicle what is to be gained by adding more points to the mix?

The best thing to do is to experiment. That's what I do and that's the way I find out what works best for me and my gear.
 
I agree with Tim. Fewer points is "faster." The only question is "can you keep those fewer points on the subject?" The less the camera has to decide between/calculate, the quicker it is.

I almost never use 51pt, I never use 3D, generally it's 9/21 pt. And that's for birds in flight. Not relatively slow motorcycles.

Keep in mind that panning has minimal benefit in the corners...it does nothing for the approaching/departing (expanding/contracting) blur. You'll need higher SS's there.
 
Very useful responses guys, thank you very much.

I'll definitely take it on board along with a little trial and error and see how I go!

Any further advice is greatly appreciated, I've read up and most other stuff makes sense but I'd like to know I haven't missed anything! :)
 
Single focus point, ai servo, high speed continuous shooting.

The rest, is down to practice practice, but as said, different people prefer different ways so have some trail and error time and see what makes most sense to you. :)
 
In nikon specific terms:
AF-C, d-9 (dynamic 9 point), CH release, and probably CW metering. Back Button focus w/ focus removed from the shutter release.
Also, consider setting focus delay. The longer the delay, the longer the camera will wait to refocus should the tracking point loose the subject or if something moves in between (i.e. another bike). With a long delay you might have to release/restart focus if you change your mind/misfocus initially.
And consider setting the release priority for continuous to focus. By default it triggers initially even if the subject is not in focus.
 
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AF-C, d-9 (dynamic 9 point), CL release, and usually CW metering. Back Button focus w/ focus removed from the shutter release.

Focus tracking set to off.

VR off.

Don't use auto iso.
 
desantnik said:
Focus tracking set to off.

VR off.

Don't use auto iso.
Click to expand...

I'll generally set delay higher for easier subjects. I assume that's what you mean by "tracking" since d9 *is* tracking.

VR *on* for panning shots. Off for shots above ~ 1/800

I use auto ISO...and usually a little EC...to each their own.
 
**drags out copy of D300 manual and blows dust off of it***

d9? Never messed with that ever!

I meant "a4: Focus Tracking with Lock-On" set to off.

Auto ISO and VR both slow down the whole processing cycle. More things it has to think about, higher the lag in the system.

I've been told that on something as slick as a D3S or a D4 it has the CPU firepower to cope better.... could be BS.

My settings are for a D300 and based on hundreds of thousands of motorsport images....
 
Yeah VR is an interesting one, there's lots written about it and lovers and haters.

I don't know anyone who seriously shoots motorsport for a job who uses VR (or IS) which probably tells you all you need to know about that.
 
Andy, thank you very much indeed, definitely given me some more things to try and nice to see it from a Nikon perspective too. I certainly don't doubt your work in the slightest so I'll be sure to check back on this next time.

Would you normally keep these settings for slower motorsports too? For instance the truck racing. I had to shoot some slow-paced drifting the other night so I'd like to know what I should be on for that.

I did manage to get a couple of shots I'm pleased with on the day, I went in a little clueless and definitely came out with more of an idea.

Here's what I did/didn't do:
AF-C Did, d-9 (dynamic 9 point) Did, CL release Didn't, need to read up!, and usually CW metering Didn't, used matrix. Back Button focus w/ focus removed from the shutter release Did, first time using it and really liked it..

Focus tracking set to off. Didn't.

VR off. Didn't, had heard good things about VRII panning, will try myself next time

Don't use auto iso. Did.

My favourite from the day:

British Superbikes 2013 (BSB) - Brands Hatch by fresheyedea, on Flickr
 
desantnik said:
**drags out copy of D300 manual and blows dust off of it***

d9? Never messed with that ever!

I meant "a4: Focus Tracking with Lock-On" set to off.

Auto ISO and VR both slow down the whole processing cycle. More things it has to think about, higher the lag in the system.

I've been told that on something as slick as a D3S or a D4 it has the CPU firepower to cope better.... could be BS.

My settings are for a D300 and based on hundreds of thousands of motorsport images....
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Kim, Do you ever shoot through fences with these settings. I did a track day at Brands the week before BSB, it was a very hot sunny day, my settings were very similar to yours apart from I was using centre single point AF, I found that I got about 1 in focus out of about a 5 shot burst shooting through fences.

I'm think I should of had the AF-C Priority set to Focus and Focus Tracking set to normal, In theory the focus should lock on the bike then ignore the fence for the subsequence shots?

I don't know if this will work in practice until I try?

I've just switched from Sony and previously Canon and never had Release Priority set I always had Focus priority, but both the Canon 1D MKIII and Sony SLT-A77 AF was far superior to my D300s so I might have been expecting to much from the D300s AF system

Cheers
 
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Hey Nick,

I don't shoot through fences 8)

However, of the two settings:

1) AFC priority - this is to do with how long before it gives up with focus and goes for release - its basically a timeout value. "Release" is the shortest time, Focus-Release is the middle and Focus the longest. I use "focus-release" - speed of action is important but still need to get a focused image....

2) Focus tracking - again this is a timing value, its to do with how long it holds before radically restarting the AF process. The usual use case is when say for example you follow one football player across the pitch but he then runs behind another player and comes out the otherside - by setting this slower it won't try to focus on the nearer subject that has briefly got in the way, but stay roughly where the subject was and quickly pick it up the other side. It *could* work for fences maybe... I say maybe because what can also happen is that it slows down the initial focus aquisition and maybe is too slow for a rapidly approaching subject too. The only time I use this feature is when shooting victory champagne shots - you can keep focus on the face when the champage pops... play with it I suggest, see what you think.
 
desantnik said:
Hey Nick,

I don't shoot through fences 8)

However, of the two settings:

1) AFC priority - this is to do with how long before it gives up with focus and goes for release - its basically a timeout value. "Release" is the shortest time, Focus-Release is the middle and Focus the longest. I use "focus-release" - speed of action is important but still need to get a focused image....

2) Focus tracking - again this is a timing value, its to do with how long it holds before radically restarting the AF process. The usual use case is when say for example you follow one football player across the pitch but he then runs behind another player and comes out the otherside - by setting this slower it won't try to focus on the nearer subject that has briefly got in the way, but stay roughly where the subject was and quickly pick it up the other side. It *could* work for fences maybe... I say maybe because what can also happen is that it slows down the initial focus aquisition and maybe is too slow for a rapidly approaching subject too. The only time I use this feature is when shooting victory champagne shots - you can keep focus on the face when the champage pops... play with it I suggest, see what you think.
Click to expand...

Good explanation thanks Kim. There's a good vid which explanes how to setup af on button on the Nikons, trouble is you have to use release priority. This method gives you both AF-C and AF-S all in one.

http://youtu.be/WyPv1bLkwqA

No good if you shooting through fences though :-(

Cheers
 
Nick Ive done a little bit of shooting through fences:)

IMHO the main factor in getting good results is firstly the sun, bright sunlight reduces the quality/hit rate a lot, if possible have the sun behind/side ways to you.
I do use a CPL filter in bright sunlight I do think it helps a bit.

Other settings that I believe gives me the best rights are single point, have tried 9 point but never got quite so good results when shooting through fences.

I use back button focus, AF-C with release priority. Focus tracking is always set to off, Ive found for fences changing this seems to make no difference at least for me. The only time I increase this is when I have to pan past a post, tree, marshall or something similar, then its a matter of increasing this setting the obstacle is ignored.
 
yamahatdm900 said:
Nick Ive done a little bit of shooting through fences:)

IMHO the main factor in getting good results is firstly the sun, bright sunlight reduces the quality/hit rate a lot, if possible have the sun behind/side ways to you.
I do use a CPL filter in bright sunlight I do think it helps a bit.

Other settings that I believe gives me the best rights are single point, have tried 9 point but never got quite so good results when shooting through fences.

I use back button focus, AF-C with release priority. Focus tracking is always set to off, Ive found for fences changing this seems to make no difference at least for me. The only time I increase this is when I have to pan past a post, tree, marshall or something similar, then its a matter of increasing this setting the obstacle is ignored.
Click to expand...

Graham, I clearly need to do some more experimenting. That said how often do we shoot in those conditions, hardly ever.

Cheers
 
NickR said:
Graham, I clearly need to do some more experimenting. That said how often do we shoot in those conditions, hardly ever.

Cheers
Click to expand...

That's true, now we said that its going to baking hot for every meeting the rest of the season. Another trick I have seen used its to use a umbrella to shade the fence where you are shooting though (not always possible though).
I do hardly shoot more than a couple of shots in one go. Gives us a bell when you are next at a BSB round Nick and have a go with the D800, I reckon the AF is a lot better, still suffers with the glare of the fences though.
 
yamahatdm900 said:
That's true, now we said that its going to baking hot for every meeting the rest of the season. Another trick I have seen used its to use a umbrella to shade the fence where you are shooting though (not always possible though).
I do hardly shoot more than a couple of shots in one go. Gives us a bell when you are next at a BSB round Nick and have a go with the D800, I reckon the AF is a lot better, still suffers with the glare of the fences though.
Click to expand...

I will thanks Graham, I'm really tempted to buy a used D800 but I have been put of by Nikon's atrocious non transferable Warranty policy! Don't fancy buying a near new D800, something's go's wrong with it and end up paying a small fortune for the repair. :thumbsdown:
 
Buy a new one? I don't think any camera manufacturer does transferable warranty
 
Thanks for the useful thread, always learning.

I often shoot through fences, provides some unusual, close-up views, particularly at street tracks or heavily fenced circuits like Silverstone. The main thing is to be as close as possible to the fence and hope it is a nice dull grey colour so it does not show up on the image. Usually a tracking focus should find the car and ignore the fence, but if you only have a short pan available, I usually just manually focus, gives more reliable results.
 
Tim R-T-C said:
Thanks for the useful thread, always learning.

I often shoot through fences, provides some unusual, close-up views, particularly at street tracks or heavily fenced circuits like Silverstone. The main thing is to be as close as possible to the fence and hope it is a nice dull grey colour so it does not show up on the image. Usually a tracking focus should find the car and ignore the fence, but if you only have a short pan available, I usually just manually focus, gives more reliable results.
Click to expand...

Tim, One of the most import things as far as shooting through fences is to shoot wide open and longest focal length, this will take the fence completely out of focus.
 
NickR said:
I will thanks Graham, I'm really tempted to buy a used D800 but I have been put of by Nikon's atrocious non transferable Warranty policy! Don't fancy buying a near new D800, something's go's wrong with it and end up paying a small fortune for the repair. :thumbsdown:
Click to expand...

If I was after a body for motorsport (read bikes in that) and I could hold fire for a while I would wait to see what Nikon offers in the D400 (IMHO announcment this Aug/sept) and then depending on price etc get one of those or the D7100 - in the latter the small buffer wuldn't worry me (shoot jpeg for bikes) and the only time I would miss a frame rate faster than 6fps would be a crash squence.
Saying that i do like my D800 :D
 
yamahatdm900 said:
If I was after a body for motorsport (read bikes in that) and I could hold fire for a while I would wait to see what Nikon offers in the D400 (IMHO announcment this Aug/sept) and then depending on price etc get one of those or the D7100 - in the latter the small buffer wuldn't worry me (shoot jpeg for bikes) and the only time I would miss a frame rate faster than 6fps would be a crash squence.
Saying that i do like my D800 :D
Click to expand...

I think you are right, I'll hang on till September/October if no D400 I'll have another think about D800 (y) when I get to the shops next Ill have a look at a d7100 to see how it feels.
 
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Two things to know about the D400:

1) Its been rumoured since about 2009, always coming in August/September

2) Its likely to be best part of 2k

Whatever ever happens with camera bodies, you still need the glass. Spend your money and efforts getting the good glass, worry about a body later but also be aware of what the total cost of a decent setup will be before you chase it.... something like a 2-4k body and upwards of 4k for a long prime and another 2k on short gear.... basically 10k before you will be happy :-/
 
desantnik said:
Two things to know about the D400:

1) Its been rumoured since about 2009, always coming in August/September

2) Its likely to be best part of 2k

Whatever ever happens with camera bodies, you still need the glass. Spend your money and efforts getting the good glass, worry about a body later but also be aware of what the total cost of a decent setup will be before you chase it.... something like a 2-4k body and upwards of 4k for a long prime and another 2k on short gear.... basically 10k before you will be happy :-/
Click to expand...

And still not happy then there is always something else:D
 
desantnik said:
Two things to know about the D400:

1) Its been rumoured since about 2009, always coming in August/September

2) Its likely to be best part of 2k

Whatever ever happens with camera bodies, you still need the glass. Spend your money and efforts getting the good glass, worry about a body later but also be aware of what the total cost of a decent setup will be before you chase it.... something like a 2-4k body and upwards of 4k for a long prime and another 2k on short gear.... basically 10k before you will be happy :-/
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you Kim, that's why when switching back to Nikon I bought good glass and a used D300s, the D300s is great but is now dated a D800 or D7100 would be a good choice but think I'd rather wait till October.
 
desantnik said:
Don't use auto iso.
Click to expand...

What's wrong with auto ISO? I use it all the time - better than the time I accidentally shot an entire race event at ISO6400, not the end of the world on my D600, but can't use any crop shots...
 
Tim R-T-C said:
What's wrong with auto ISO? I use it all the time - better than the time I accidentally shot an entire race event at ISO6400, not the end of the world on my D600, but can't use any crop shots...
Click to expand...

I agree, auto-ISO and manual exposure was one of the features I missed when I switched from Nikon to Canon>Sony, glad to have it back now, works great when you want to control both shutter speed and aperture and let the ISO set the exposure. Helps when shooting through the cage as well lol
 
Auto ISO slows things down when you use shutter or aperture priority, plus also means that you have lost control over yet another piece of the puzzle.

The only time I use it is when using TC's - then it is valuable - use manual mode to get the shutter speed you want (most important for motorsport!) and an aperture that is not too wide (with TC's most important!) and not too small for difraction.... then let auto-ISO do the rest. Perfect!

Don't use auto-ISO with flash!
 
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Teleconverter...Canon call them an "extender"
 
I do a lot of Birds/BIF work, I've even done some insects in flight using my settings/techniques... IMO, motor sports is a lot easier.

By turning Focus delay off you are basically setting the camera to single point AF even if it's in a "dynamic mode." It refocuses on the selected (usually center) point as soon as the distance changes reducing the benefit of being in a dynamic tracking mode. (*by d9 I meant dynamic 9point, not menu setting).

I don't believe auto ISO slows down anything, nor is it necessarily "giving up control." But it does mean your exposures may vary and metering mode/point becomes much more critical. In reality, manual mode is "easier" if the light is relatively constant. But personally, I prefer that whites be a little underexposed and blacks a little overexposed...both are easy to fix in post while recovering from pure black/white is not. While it is constantly recalculating proper exposure, it does not cause any delay in shutter release.

AF modes...Back when I used a D200/300 my methods were a bit different, and my success rates a bit lower. The way I work now has worked well with the D3/D4/D800/D7000....a lot of it has to do with the AF system and processor.... Things have changed.... With all Nikons I find that going above d9 (21/51) it does slow down the AF performance some and can reduce accuracy due to using non-cross type AF points. And for (slower) motor sports I don't see any need/benefit to using more. (The larger settings *can* help when working with very fast subjects against an uncluttered BG (i.e. jets/sky))

VR.... The only time I will use it is w/ SS under ~1/800. Above that I have seen it cause lower sharpness; but the effect/results are intermittent/sporadic. In motor sports your SS is usually above that. Additionally, many manufacturers recommend it be turned off when on a tripod regardless of SS.
But I think a lot of it comes down to "old dog, new trick" kind of thing. VR wasn't required before, and it isn't required now (w/ good technique). When you change to "something new" it's easy to "question it" and blame a miss on the new change. Additionally, there was nothing wrong with a 500mm f/4 w/o VR....I certainly wouldn't replace the lens just to get VR; not for motor sports.
 
Shutter speed above eight hundred in motorsport? You must shoot very differently to me!
 
desantnik said:
Shutter speed above eight hundred in motorsport? You must shoot very differently to me!
Click to expand...

I should have said "unless panning"...
I use 2-3x FL as my "minimum SS" when I can get it for subject sharpness. If I want/need lower for wheel/BG blur etc., then it generally involves panning and VR helps; even w/ a gimbal head. ("on a tripod" means on a tripod locked down)

If you are using SS's like 1/60-1/125 to get wheel blur w/ a monopod/unlocked tripod and not panning, then VR can REALLY help. If you have VR capabilities, I think you should give it a "fair try" before discounting it.

VR does seem to slow down initial AF lock but I don't know for a fact. I'm not sure if the shutter release will trigger and the image be sharp before the viewfinder stabilizes or not, I've never really tried. But if you're not picking up the subject until the moment of shutter release you're probably not doing things "right." (**there may be times where you have no choice, but not many)

With the newer Nikons (and most Canons I believe) BBF also activates VR....might be a minor issue w/ older Nikons where it does not.
 
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