Bounce Flash - what's the limit?

[dod]

Just wondering, went to see the place where I'm doing the wedding on friday and the ceiling is a good 20 foot high, maybe slightly more. I'm guessing I'll need to dial in at least an extra stop to the flash?

Should I forget about using the stofen in a situation like that? Beautiful old hotel though, should be some decent opportunities

 

[fingerz]

Put the flash in manual, test in the room first to get it right and then leave it set. For the golfing thing I just did (see thread in general forum) the room the client had their kit in also had a very high ceiling. In order to bounce I had to have the flash at 1/1 (full power) and I still needed ISO 400 to make the interior bright enough.

 

[RobertP]

The flash does have to work hard to get through the stoffen. So if it can do the job make sure you have spare batteries for it

Ummm if you went to see the place - why didn't you take the camera and flash ?

 

[dod]

Put the flash in manual, test in the room first to get it right and then leave it set. For the golfing thing I just did (see thread in general forum) the room the client had their kit in also had a very high ceiling. In order to bounce I had to have the flash at 1/1 (full power) and I still needed ISO 400 to make the interior bright enough.

Jees, it's years since I set a flash manually. Better have a quick read up. Did you just guess it to start with or did you take a few shots?

Robert, long story, wife had my car with all my kit.

 

[CT]

The theory is simple enough Doddy. You calculate the distance from the camera to the subject, which in the case of bounced flash, means the combination of the camera to ceiling distance and the ceiling to subject distance. You divide that distance into the guide no of your flash unit which gives you the aperture for correct exposure. Unfortunately, you also have to allow for light loss due to the disappation of the flash being bounced, and light loss due the colour/ reflective nature of the ceiling.

However, flash technology has come a long way, and modern units are capable of continually outputting light to make up for these losses. The 580EX has surprised me a few times. My advice is take some test shots before you start and be guided by those. If they look OK on the LCD screen and you're shooting RAW you shouldn't have much to worry about.

 

[neos]

Doddy, consider strapping a white card to the top of the the flash and point it straight up. This will give a burst of fill, but won't light the whole scene. You can buy them from sto-fen but they're easy to make yourself. I you do decide to bounce i would keep the sto-fen ON, as it help throw a little light forward with such a high ceiling.

But nothing beats a test. If you can''t go back, finsd a similar room to try it out.

 

[SDK^]

Neos - Dod has a Canon 580 which comes with a pullout white catchlight anyway

 

[neos]

does it indeed, then i must buy one.

 

[RobertP]

Neos - Dod has a Canon 580 which comes with a pullout white catchlight anyway

Which you can't use if you have the stoffen fitted as it covers the pullouts.


Edit: not completely true - you could extend it half an inch and then fit the stoffen.

 

[SDK^]

I've ditched the Stofen - to be honest you don't really need to use it.

 

[Mr THX]

I've ditched the Stofen - to be honest you don't really need to use it.

At all ?? or just for the particular job Dod's talking about....

 

[SDK^]

At all ?? or just for the particular job Dod's talking about....

I don't use it full stop
I prefer to bounce the flash vertically or from a corner behind me

 

[dod]

Thanks guys, I'll wing it, it'll all be fine Too late if it's not anyway

 

[Mr THX]

I don't use it full stop
I prefer to bounce the flash vertically or from a corner behind me

TBH I find vertically bounced flash on portraits can give an awfull sunken eye socket look but each to our own I suppose.

Good luck with the Wedding tomorrow Dod, I have one on Sunday, trouble is its looking like rain oh well plan B is there to be used !!!

 

[fingerz]

If you've got time to do the calculations involving the guide number, you've got time to take a test shot (probably three or four if your maths is as bad as mine).

I always start out with the flash at 1/1 (full power) and the camera at max aperture then work back. If you can get a scene that's too bright (use the histogram if you can't tell from the picture) at ISO 100 then you know you're onto a winner. Narrow the aperture as your first option, then once you get to f/8 (or whatever you deem to be good depth of field and sharpness), if your scene's still too bright, start reducing the flash power.

If there are windows in your scene and you want outside to look reasonably similar (ie not totally blown) control it with the shutter spped. This should make no difference to the indoor brightness if you're doing flash stuff.

 

[dod]

Thnx Thx I'm brickin' it, spent the whole night looking at wedding photo sites, I know the brides better than their husbands

 

[CT]

TBH I find vertically bounced flash on portraits can give an awfull sunken eye socket look

It can indeed. I took this shot in the kitchen this morning using the Fong Lightsphere. It's an absolute 'worst case' scenario, with Jan standing a couple of feet from the wall, the camera in portrait orientation, and using the 50mm 1.4 working close, but it's the sort of situation which isn't uncommon at wedding venues, and on rainy days you may well be forced to take all the shots indoors in the most unsuitable situations.

I've used Stofens in these situations and tbh they're not much use - they do soften the flash glare somewhat, but as the light is still coming from the same small intense source, they do little or nothing to soften harsh shadows.

You'll be fine Doddy - keep well away from walls as much as you can, but if you're going to do a lot of this... get a Lightsphere.

Edit.. sorry I should have made it clearer - the shot was taken with the flash pointing straight up at the ceiling.

 

[SDK^]

Edit.. sorry I should have made it clearer - the shot was taken with the flash pointing straight up at the ceiling.

CT - That looks quite good.
I find the catch light card on the 580 does direct enough light to reduce shadows in the eye area and it also produces a nice white catch light in the eye as well

I've also experimented using my MR14 ring flash as a master for fill in flash, or with the ratio reduced in manual mode and the 580EX as a wireless slave bounced off a ceiling or a wall behind the subject to reduce shadows.

There are so many different combinations with subject, position and light that it’s difficult to create a set of rules for a particular situation.

 

[CT]

CT - That looks quite good.
I find the catch light card on the 580 does direct enough light to reduce shadows in the eye area and it also produces a nice white catch light in the eye as well

I've also experimented using my MR14 ring flash as a master for fill in flash, or with the ratio reduced in manual mode and the 580EX as a wireless slave bounced off a ceiling or a wall behind the subject to reduce shadows.

There are so many different combinations with subject, position and light that it’s difficult to create a set of rules for a particular situation.

I couldn't agree more, particularly with the last bit, I've tried everything with weddings including flash umbrellas and multi flash set ups. Guys doing this for the first time are likely to be caught out with the harsh shadows and or sunken eye thing though when relying on a single flash unit, which is what I'm trying to help them avoid.

This Fong diffuser is the most portable and convenient answer to the problem I've yet come across, I can think of situations where it would have been a boon to me ... cramped and crowded tiny little vestries spring to mind straight away.

 

[dod]

which is what I'm trying to help them avoid.

Appreciate all the suggestions in here At least by being aware of the pitfalls hopefully I'll be able to minimise them if not completely get rid of them.

 

[CT]

You'll be fine Doddy. Just have a look at some of the shadows in the 'Way We Were' thread. Truthfully (and thankfully) most people don't even notice them, but as photographers we're horrified when we see them, and we know they could have been avoided!

 

[dod]

Finito Registrar didn't allow any photography during the ceremony itself so that sorted that out. Mostly went fine otherwise, hiccup when we came in again from outside as I forgot to change the ISO up again and took two shots before I remembered, thank goodness for chimping

Had a quick look through but on my lappy monitor I'll reserve judgement till later. Bright sun looks like it's caused highlights to burn out a bit here but still think it works not too bad. Second needed a bit more DOF

 

[CT]

Not too bad at all! The DOF in the 2nd shot is 'artistic' it's only the rings you wanted n focus.

 

[dod]

Not too bad at all! The DOF in the 2nd shot is 'artistic' it's only the rings you wanted n focus.

Ta CT, had a look through them properly now and overall fairly happy, quite liking this one of one of the bridesmaids, shouldn't have cut the flowers off though but was with the 85mm and didn't have time to recompose

And this was inside

Edit: and an outside croup to finish

 

[Mr THX]

Great trio there Dod did you end up using the flash for a little fill in and if so how did you set it up ??

 

[dod]

did you end up using the flash for a little fill in and if so how did you set it up ??

I resorted to what I know works for motocross Either upping exposure with no flash to cope with backlighting or setting shutter speed and using flash at about -1 FEC

 

[CT]

Well done Doddy!

Shame about the bouquet in the bridesmaid shot, and a shame about getting that bit of sky in the shot too. Background is everything really, so never be afraid to look around and move your subjects to a more suitable area - it looks like that place had plenty of choices? I'd definitely clone that sky out of the bridesmaid pic, it's easy to do, and the shot will be better for it.

Good job though.