DSLR's and video

desantnik

desantnik

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Thought I'd start another thread with some questions I have rather than clutter some poor TP'ers specific thread with my rather more general questions...

Ok, so I am after some proper "actual use" based opinions on the following questions:

1) Do any of the DSLR's have a proper high speed video mode? By "high speed" I mean significantly faster than something like 30fps?

2) How do you focus in video mode? Has to be via live view yes?

3) If the answer to #2 is yes, then how on earth do you hold a D3S/MkIV with an external mic and a decent piece of glass at arms length and get anything like a steady image for any length of time? I mean thats a bit like the car battery lift even in "Worlds Strongest Man" isnt it? Basically, do you need a video type tripod/head for this to work?

People talk about high-quality video from DSLR's but it seems to me that you are basically just tipping in on the slippery slope of all that expensive video stuff even if your camera and lenses are reusable? Am I right on that?
 
My take is that the Vid capability is either for amateurs who want something better than iPhone video, or journalists who need to provide better-quality vid-clips for websites...
I know the quality can be amazingly good, but in most cases, without proper video training it won't be... Not talking about IQ, I'm talking about the finished product - how many AVID users out there?

For the IQ to be any good the camera has to be tripod-mounted...if the lens/camera is too light, you'll get wobble and shake; if it's too heavy, you'll get tired arms very quickly - and more wobble and shake...

I also think anyone buying a DSLR just for its video capability is a fool...if you need video, buy a video camera...
 
Yes Rob, I'd not disagree that the actual final video product is a lot more artistically and technically complex than most would imagine - far more so than stills!
 
Agree, not just on capture but also editing... This is what probably the best wildlife photographer in the world at the moment (in my opinion) can do with pro editing afterwards.

[YOUTUBE]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/R46ca9zBP4A&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/R46ca9zBP4A&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

It was part of the promo for the D3S launch and looked stunning on the big screen at the Royal Geographical Society!
 
I've seen bracketry on the operator's neck and chest to hold camera, lights, action mic.

Most of the videos are assembled from clips lasting a few seconds at most. Watch TV and that's how it's done. Pretty sure I wouldn't enjoy that editing process, but to some extent it can cover up having fixed focus for each segment (but in reality leaves me annoyed with most of the vids I've seen).
 
Quite impressive video Paul, but had to notice that the stuff around the 2 min mark is actually stills panned into video :D
 
photon said:
I've seen bracketry on the operator's neck and chest to hold camera, lights, action mic.
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And I thought it was all about being able to seemlessly move between video and stills ;-)

In al seriousness, I think thats the thing that people are failing to understand- they are different disciplines even if the recording platform is the same.

Most of the videos are assembled from clips lasting a few seconds at most. Watch TV and that's how it's done. Pretty sure I wouldn't enjoy that editing process, but to some extent it can cover up having fixed focus for each segment (but in reality leaves me annoyed with most of the vids I've seen).
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Yes, once you start to think about it you see this in TV footage. How annoying must that be to make! I guess the tendency there will be to make a fast cutting, jumpy, "edgy", video out of everything you shoot - which might not be the right decision!

I suppose the only other way is to use multiple cameras for multiple camera angles.

A different mindset here!
 
desantnik said:
Quite impressive video Paul, but had to notice that the stuff around the 2 min mark is actually stills panned into video :D
Click to expand...

Indeed it is but for me there is where the worlds collide in an interesting way. I, along with many other people, do slideshows of images set to music. My hope is to become good enough at editing that I can add small sections of movies to the sequence where appropriate - but I'm not there yet.

One of the most powerful sequences I've seen this year is a stills slide show which moves to an eagle in profile. Suddenly, the eagle turns and looks in the camera - which isn't what you are expecting!

There are serious video people using expensive rigs to make proper films (I believe the last episode of "House" was shot on 5DII) but I don't see that as being the key interest to me as a photographer. The ability to add a little movement could be interesting.

It is worth noting that Munier shoots video like a stills photographer. They tend to be scenes with some movement within them, which is different to how someone like Martyn Collbeck would shoot the same scene as a film cameraman...
 
desantnik said:
Ok, so I am after some proper "actual use" based opinions on the following questions:

1) Do any of the DSLR's have a proper high speed video mode? By "high speed" I mean significantly faster than something like 30fps?
Click to expand...

the 7d can record at 50 fps in 720p mode

desantnik said:
2) How do you focus in video mode? Has to be via live view yes?

3) If the answer to #2 is yes, then how on earth do you hold a D3S/MkIV with an external mic and a decent piece of glass at arms length and get anything like a steady image for any length of time? I mean thats a bit like the car battery lift even in "Worlds Strongest Man" isnt it? Basically, do you need a video type tripod/head for this to work?
Click to expand...

The answer is yes. If you wanted to do what you described, with a long lens and a heavy mkIV and an external mic then yes either on a tripod or a rig. You can set them up with shoulder rigs and eyepieces etc - all still much cheaper than buying a camcroder equivalent

desantnik said:
People talk about high-quality video from DSLR's but it seems to me that you are basically just tipping in on the slippery slope of all that expensive video stuff even if your camera and lenses are reusable? Am I right on that?
Click to expand...

I don't think so. Firstly if you are professional then you can easily get amazing results by adding the equipment mentioned above, just google philip bloom to see some examples of this. There are lots more examples on vimeo or go to cinema5d.com to see some amazing footage.

As an amateur I've used a camcorder for about 5 years, after getting my 7d I ditched my camcorder and exclusively film video with my 7d. The results are much better in my own video.

Now, any mistakes I make in my videoing are the same whether I'm using my 7d or a dedicated camcorder - thats to say if I'm rubbish at filming stuff and framing shots etc then it's all the same. What is much better is the quality of the video, particularly in low light and the variety of shots I can now get. So for example this was the latest video I shot from my holiday to wales. Now like i said all my experience is total amateur so anything in this video that is poor, like my shooting technique, shaky cam etc etc would be the same whether I shot it on my dslr or my camcorder -but the overall finished product is much better than when I used a camcorder

[YOUTUBE]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6EYiKZjS2Gk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6EYiKZjS2Gk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

Arkady said:
My take is that the Vid capability is either for amateurs who want something better than iPhone video, or journalists who need to provide better-quality vid-clips for websites...
I know the quality can be amazingly good, but in most cases, without proper video training it won't be... Not talking about IQ, I'm talking about the finished product - how many AVID users out there?
Click to expand...

As said above, this is going to be the same if you are using a camcorder or a dSLR, but in my impression the finished products from my own video is better than when I used a dedicated camcorder

Arkady said:
For the IQ to be any good the camera has to be tripod-mounted...if the lens/camera is too light, you'll get wobble and shake; if it's too heavy, you'll get tired arms very quickly - and more wobble and shake...
Click to expand...

I disagree. Dublins people from phillip bloom was a Zacuto Tactical rig, Z-Finder V2 and one lone lens, a Canon 35mm f1.4. Not a tripod in site.

Also, take a look at this handheld I shot of a bee with a 100mm macro lens without the IS on. Totally handheld, no tripod, and at that magnification any movement is hugely magnified

[YOUTUBE]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/w2C4VdOY5fU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/w2C4VdOY5fU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

Arkady said:
I also think anyone buying a DSLR just for its video capability is a fool...if you need video, buy a video camera...
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perhaps, depends on the person. If they are buying it for film making and want to add the rigs etc then they aren't being foolish at all, probably saving themselves a good few thousand pounds.

If an amateur is just for video and not photos then I agree, poor decision. But if like me you want both and don't want to have to carry two devices around and want to get better results then it is a good idea
 
On a 7D, you have 60 or 50fps mode as well as 30/24, but only in smaller image sizes - 1280x720 and 640x480 rather than 1920x1080

I've tried a few bits of motorsport, but needs decent support otherwise camera shake spoils your footage - it becomes tripod territory and probably a fluid head.

It will focus via liveview but slow and noisy - best is to use manual mode and you can probably get used to this with practise.

I was impressed with the output quality, just not impressed with the operator or his technique.
 
Ok, I think I am hearing

#1 so "home video" can be better than you would get from buying a 300 quid camcorder, but just because an episode of House was made with a 5D Mk2 don't imagine you just press the button and become Speilberg.

#2 Stabilisation is more important than with stills as you need steady for at least a few seconds - which is much longer than even nutty motorsport togs track subjects for. IS probably isn't the answer as that whirring sound gets picked up on the mic (unless you are planning on a total soundtrack replacement afterwards or seperately recording)

#3 To go at it seriously you need a decent mic, maybe video lighting and a couple of extra pairs of hands and a gym membership.

#4 Manual focus is what video is all about, so those narrow DOF shots are a lot of hassle.

#5 Editing is everything.

Did I miss anything?

What about the "jello effect" - I don't think any of the DSLR's have got over that one yet have they? I guess you just have to move the camera slowly - thats why they made House and not The Unit or something ;-)
 
desantnik said:
Ok, I think I am hearing

#1 so "home video" can be better than you would get from buying a 300 quid camcorder, but just because an episode of House was made with a 5D Mk2 don't imagine you just press the button and become Speilberg.
Click to expand...

I mean I have to just add that "home video" can be better even than an £800 camcorder. Mine was the Panasonic HS300 and the 7d just beats it hands down. I don't think I've ever really seen HD footage that I considered was really HD quality from any prosumer camcorder unless it is in perfect light outdoors, my panny was very dissapointing
 
Oh ok, actually I have no idea what a "consumer" camcorder costs - I've never even looked at one!! I think all of my friends "home videos" put me off ever thinking about it!
 
desantnik said:
Oh ok, actually I have no idea what a "consumer" camcorder costs - I've never even looked at one!! I think all of my friends "home videos" put me off ever thinking about it!
Click to expand...

£300 isn;t a bad punt. Most people will have camcorders in that bracket but they go easily up to £1000 plus for a prosumer one, even those don't even touch the quality of video from a dSLR
 
I think what people misunderstand with video SLRs is that they are not a camcorder replacement. If you want to just point and shoot video then get a camcorder, you will most likely be disappointed with what a video SLR can give you. But if you are willing to set up each shot like a professional would, tripod mounted and manually focused then you will get a lot more satisfaction from a video SLR.

Watch any tv commercial, soap opera, hollywood film and you will find that each shot normally doesn't exceed 3 seconds in length (of course there are exceptions) and most are around 2 seconds each. This is how professional videos are put together and this is where a video SLR is so great, its miles cheaper than an equivalent professional video camera and although it has its drawbacks they are mostly easy to work around.

Gear yourself up with a proper video head, sound recording device and mic. Then decide what you want to record, plan your shots, draw up a brief storyboard and shot list. With a little thought and planning you will find that your finished video will be 100 times better than a point and shoot attempt, which is what a lot of people seem to be doing.
 
Interesting stuff Sam - like I keep saying, I don't really know very much at all about this.

Are scenes really 3 seconds long? I'm going off to pay attention to TV and films now :)

I guess as I said earlier they manage to keep things moving by shooting with multiple cameras simultaneously whilst refocusing the other(s)??
 
desantnik said:
Interesting stuff Sam - like I keep saying, I don't really know very much at all about this.

Are scenes really 3 seconds long? I'm going off to pay attention to TV and films now :)

I guess as I said earlier they manage to keep things moving by shooting with multiple cameras simultaneously whilst refocusing the other(s)??
Click to expand...

Pick a tv commercial you like, find it on youtube and then pause it each time there is a cut and make a note. I think you will be surprised by the time the 30 second commerical is over.
 
CSB said:
I think what people misunderstand with video SLRs is that they are not a camcorder replacement. If you want to just point and shoot video then get a camcorder, you will most likely be disappointed with what a video SLR can give you. But if you are willing to set up each shot like a professional would, tripod mounted and manually focused then you will get a lot more satisfaction from a video SLR.
Click to expand...

I don't think this is entirely true, like in my case I rarely use a tripod and I am happier with my results over a camcorder. As I said before, any camera shakiness when using a dSLR is going to be the same from using a camcorder - thats just the operator (OK if they have a 1200mm lens on it its going to be more, but you get what I mean).

You don't have to go all out professional, with rigs, tripods and external mics to get a better experience from video on a dslr over a camcorder. All you need is a bit of practice in manual focussing.
 
desantnik said:
Ok, I think I am hearing

#1 so "home video" can be better than you would get from buying a 300 quid camcorder, but just because an episode of House was made with a 5D Mk2 don't imagine you just press the button and become Speilberg.
Click to expand...

Speilberg and Lucas films are using 7d's and 1d mk4's for three films currently in production. Size & weight are the main factors.
[youtube]H4xqrXcuTU0[/youtube]

There's plenty of rigs around to take dslr's. Focussing is often done with external screens running from the hdmi output.

Some interesting stuff here: http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=219989&highlight=video
 
This topic was covered a while back in this thread - http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=199781&highlight=hs300. Maybe you will find some of the discussion useful, maybe not.

As for the improved IQ over a camcorder, in my opinion content trumps IQ any day of the week. I'd far rather watch a well made and interesting programme in standard def than a piece of sh!t made in high def. I suppose if I'm going to be forced to watch sh!t anyway then it might as well be in HD, but I'm not going to want to watch it even so. I haven't used the video mode on my 7D or 5D2 since a one off experiment in December and I don't expect ever to use it again. I'm bad enough as a photographer. As a videographer I am infinitely worse. A man's got to know his limitations.
 
desantnik said:
2) How do you focus in video mode? Has to be via live view yes?

3) If the answer to #2 is yes, then how on earth do you hold a D3S/MkIV with an external mic and a decent piece of glass at arms length and get anything like a steady image for any length of time? I mean thats a bit like the car battery lift even in "Worlds Strongest Man" isnt it? Basically, do you need a video type tripod/head for this to work?

People talk about high-quality video from DSLR's but it seems to me that you are basically just tipping in on the slippery slope of all that expensive video stuff even if your camera and lenses are reusable? Am I right on that?
Click to expand...
My wife is focus pulling on some pop video shoot over the weekend - they are using 7D. Her job is the same as any other - measure the distance between the camera and artists and plan the shot and pull focus as the shot is made. Dunno what the DoP is using as a monitor - probably something external as the guy below is.

[YOUTUBE]Fl40AUoUOAE[/YOUTUBE]
 
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