Beginner Help Choosing Please

[StewartR]

Here's another view. It can be hard at the best of times to work out whether you would be better off buying this body or that body, this lens or that lens. But it's a lot easier if you are using a camera/lens and finding that you are coming up against its limitations, because that gives you a direct pointer to the benefit of upgrading.

So... get a camera and a lens, and start using it. Something like a D3x00 and an 18-140, or a 70-300, perhaps. Don't blow your whole budget. Buy used, look after the equipment, and if you decide to upgrade you should be able to sell it for virtually the same amount that you paid for it. Then get out there and learn how to use it, and how to push hard against its limitations. When you find you really can't take the shots you want to, come back here and ask for advice. Then, if you do need to spend extra £££ on a better lens or a better camera, it will be relatively obvious which options are best.

 

[snerkler]

I actually agree with Teflon Mike as the op wasn't able to use the d3100 out of auto mode with any confidence. If he couldn't do that before he's not going to do that with a body higher up the range.

But putting that aside and for what it's worth, my first DSLR was the d3000. After nearly 3 years of using it entirely out of auto mode, I upgraded to the d7000 and the jump in image quality for shots taken at higher ISO was with it to me. But it might not be to you. I was able to try out a friend d7000 before buying my own so I was able to make an informed decision on whether it was worth it to me.

I hear the d5500 is a great camera and not to be fooled by the price being lower than that of the d7xxx range.

Depends on the user, I grew out of basic functions rapidly and it soon became clear that I need a better AF system. The trouble is we don't have a crystal ball, the OP can't be sure at this stage let alone anyone else how quickly he will advance, whether it'll be a passing fad, what functions are going to prove to be most important. I listened to folks advice to start basic and upgrade as and when and in hind sight wish I hadn't, wasted a lot of money that way. But this is my specific experience and at the time of starting out did not know how involved I would get, exactly what I would be shooting and the functions I'd need.

 

[snerkler]

Here's another view. It can be hard at the best of times to work out whether you would be better off buying this body or that body, this lens or that lens. But it's a lot easier if you are using a camera/lens and finding that you are coming up against its limitations, because that gives you a direct pointer to the benefit of upgrading.

.

^^^^^^ this.

 

[wezza13]

Can't blame the OP for thinking, as a beginner, that the more money you throw at photographic equipment, the better the image quality = better pictures.

Unfortunately, a lot of people think in this way and are disappointed when the pictures still turn out bad.

Do yourself a favour buddy and really try and learn the exposure triangle for starters. Also learn about composition, lighting, shutter speed, depth of field, etc.

You will be able to take much, much better pictures than you will with throwing a load of money at a camera body with loads of features that you don't/won't use!

And, yes, it is an expensive hobby if you allow it to be. But it really doesn't need to be

I buy a lot of my stuff second-hand from mpb and wex, etc.

I also usually hire lenses from @StewartR at lensesforhire, if possible, before making a purchase!

The more expensive body isn't a solution to your problem.

I sincerely hope that you make the right decision

Good luck!

 

[kevinp]

Sorry I have not been on for a couple of days, been busy.
Anyway just to update, of the three id chosen I did go to get the D3300 Wednesday night, but it was not in stock and was 3 to 4 days delivery, was told there was one D5500 left in stock so went through the process of buying this as I really wanted it yesterday for Manchester Champ Show, when the lad went out to get it, came back very apologetic as it had been sold that morning, so still have to wait the 3 to 4 days, hoping it will be here tomorrow. so choice finally made D5500.
Thanks Everyone for help and guidance on this, really appreciated and probably more questions to come when I get down o using it.

 

[snerkler]

Sorry I have not been on for a couple of days, been busy.
Anyway just to update, of the three id chosen I did go to get the D3300 Wednesday night, but it was not in stock and was 3 to 4 days delivery, was told there was one D5500 left in stock so went through the process of buying this as I really wanted it yesterday for Manchester Champ Show, when the lad went out to get it, came back very apologetic as it had been sold that morning, so still have to wait the 3 to 4 days, hoping it will be here tomorrow. so choice finally made D5500.
Thanks Everyone for help and guidance on this, really appreciated and probably more questions to come when I get down o using it.

Cool, sure you will be happy with it My advice would be to learn the exposure triangle and get out of using auto ASAP.

 

[Teflon-Mike]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting on Auto, Kevin, so long as you know WHY you are shooting on Auto! - Knowing how to shoot on manual is not the same as knowing WHEN to shoot on manual!

Gave the O/H a lesson on that yesterday! Under quickly changing cloud, chasing ducks about the park, she stuck to 'Manual' for a good twenty duff frames before she gave in and switched to the green box and started catching stuff before it ran off or flew off or the light changed! Lesson learned, me thinks!

Daughter actually caused some consternation on this matter her A-Level photography class a few weeks ago offering the opinion (she's acquired from me!) about being 'precious' about settings; The class were told that for submissions they had to 'demonstrate understanding of the camera controls', and the teacher 'encouraged' them to use manual.... Daughter offered suggestion, that NOT using 'auto' or any of the semi-auto modes, when appropriate, and using 'manual' exclusively, was actually failing to 'demonstrate understanding of the camera controls'; 'Auto' is one setting of the controls, Program, is another, Aperture-Priority yet another, and so is Shutter-Priority. They are ALL controls, and to 'demonstrate understanding of the camera controls' you need to use them all, when appropriate, not ignore them for some misguided belief that 'manual' is 'best', or makes you a 'expert' who always knows better than the cameras programmers!

Key of course is knowing when and where is 'appropriate' though....But right here, right now, as said in last post; YOU NEED TO GO TAKE PHOTOS! AND, because, right here, right now, the cameras brain probably has more expert 'programming' in its 'auto' mode, than your's does, USE IT! Use 'Auto'! It IS very appropriate in your siltation!

And DON'T worry about 'Settings'! Worry about your subject, worry about your scene, worry about your composition. LOOK around you, NOT at the camera, not even through the camera. Pay attention to the light, the direction its coming from, whether its bright or dim. Look into the shadows; look at the highlights and reflections. Take it all in. DON'T fixate on your 'subject' look at the setting around them; watch out for by-standers in distracting luminous bibs or fence posts or railings that you might 'track' into frame following your subject. Look at what you don normally look at... our 'vision' is very sophisticated and our brain blanks-out an awful lot of detail to concentrate on what is 'eye-catching' or 'interesting'.. cameras don't... they see all, and give it equal attention! So look around, pay attention to everything else and look at the scene as the camera does, paying attention equally to everything in the frame. "North-South-East-West! Check the corners, then the rest!" This is what the camera cannot do for you, so trust the camera to do the things it can, while you learn to do the things only you can.

WHEN it starts going wrong, and you don't get the pictures you hoped or expected.... THEN its time to ask why and whether it was because the camera's brain did, in fact get it wrong for you, or whether you did. But, even if the camera's 'full-auto' didn't do the 'best', you need to know why, and what might have bee 'better', and in that, STILL, full-manual, may not be the best answer. Using Exposure compensation, may be all that's needed, or semi-auto Shutter or Aperture priority, BUT likelihood is, it will be your technique, holding the camera properly, looking at and evaluating the scene properly, planning your shot, and paying attention to the 'detail' that will make most difference, not 'settings' and not whether those settings are made for you by the camera micro-processor or dialled in, by hand, by you. Trying to do that in 'manual' is more likely to give you more duffers, and no idea even WHY they are duffers. So don't be in a rush to make life difficult for yourself! Just go get some photo's.. and start learning from your mistakes. Remember better photographers take better photo' not better cameras, dont expect stunig shots straight out the box, expect duffers, and expect to try and learn fro them.

 

[snerkler]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting on Auto, Kevin, so long as you know WHY you are shooting on Auto! - Knowing how to shoot on manual is not the same as knowing WHEN to shoot on manual!

Gave the O/H a lesson on that yesterday! Under quickly changing cloud, chasing ducks about the park, she stuck to 'Manual' for a good twenty duff frames before she gave in and switched to the green box and started catching stuff before it ran off or flew off or the light changed! Lesson learned, me thinks!

Daughter actually caused some consternation on this matter her A-Level photography class a few weeks ago offering the opinion (she's acquired from me!) about being 'precious' about settings; The class were told that for submissions they had to 'demonstrate understanding of the camera controls', and the teacher 'encouraged' them to use manual.... Daughter offered suggestion, that NOT using 'auto' or any of the semi-auto modes, when appropriate, and using 'manual' exclusively, was actually failing to 'demonstrate understanding of the camera controls'; 'Auto' is one setting of the controls, Program, is another, Aperture-Priority yet another, and so is Shutter-Priority. They are ALL controls, and to 'demonstrate understanding of the camera controls' you need to use them all, when appropriate, not ignore them for some misguided belief that 'manual' is 'best', or makes you a 'expert' who always knows better than the cameras programmers!

Key of course is knowing when and where is 'appropriate' though....But right here, right now, as said in last post; YOU NEED TO GO TAKE PHOTOS! AND, because, right here, right now, the cameras brain probably has more expert 'programming' in its 'auto' mode, than your's does, USE IT! Use 'Auto'! It IS very appropriate in your siltation!

And DON'T worry about 'Settings'! Worry about your subject, worry about your scene, worry about your composition. LOOK around you, NOT at the camera, not even through the camera. Pay attention to the light, the direction its coming from, whether its bright or dim. Look into the shadows; look at the highlights and reflections. Take it all in. DON'T fixate on your 'subject' look at the setting around them; watch out for by-standers in distracting luminous bibs or fence posts or railings that you might 'track' into frame following your subject. Look at what you don normally look at... our 'vision' is very sophisticated and our brain blanks-out an awful lot of detail to concentrate on what is 'eye-catching' or 'interesting'.. cameras don't... they see all, and give it equal attention! So look around, pay attention to everything else and look at the scene as the camera does, paying attention equally to everything in the frame. "North-South-East-West! Check the corners, then the rest!" This is what the camera cannot do for you, so trust the camera to do the things it can, while you learn to do the things only you can.

WHEN it starts going wrong, and you don't get the pictures you hoped or expected.... THEN its time to ask why and whether it was because the camera's brain did, in fact get it wrong for you, or whether you did. But, even if the camera's 'full-auto' didn't do the 'best', you need to know why, and what might have bee 'better', and in that, STILL, full-manual, may not be the best answer. Using Exposure compensation, may be all that's needed, or semi-auto Shutter or Aperture priority, BUT likelihood is, it will be your technique, holding the camera properly, looking at and evaluating the scene properly, planning your shot, and paying attention to the 'detail' that will make most difference, not 'settings' and not whether those settings are made for you by the camera micro-processor or dialled in, by hand, by you. Trying to do that in 'manual' is more likely to give you more duffers, and no idea even WHY they are duffers. So don't be in a rush to make life difficult for yourself! Just go get some photo's.. and start learning from your mistakes. Remember better photographers take better photo' not better cameras, dont expect stunig shots straight out the box, expect duffers, and expect to try and learn fro them.

I understand and agree with your sentiment but IMO Auto gives you little to no control of the look of your final image. Assuming no exp comp is needed exposure 'should' be correct but does it look how you wanted it to? Shooting in priority modes at least gives you some control of the final look of your image. But you should at least understand the exposure triangle as I said IMO, even if you still choose to shoot auto for some reason at least you have a chance of understanding why the image turned out as it did and why the camera chose the settings it did.

So whilst everything you said is true, 'focus' on your subject, composition, surroundings and of course light I personally don't think that you should ignore camera settings and the benefit of learning exposure. I agree at first shooting in manual will give you more duffers, but if you understand the exposure triangle you should know why.

Tbh I don't shoot in manual a lot these days, the majority of my shots are aperture priority, but by knowing the camera, knowing exposure I still have control of the final image and understand what is happening.

 

[Teflon-Mike]

I understand and agree with your sentiment but IMO Auto gives you little to no control of the look of your final image. .

Little or on control over the look? Do me a pistachio & cherry!
Sorry, its seasoning. You don't 'make' a photo 'in' the camera, twiddling knobs and buttons. You make a photo in what's outside the camera, what you put there deliberately, or what's there incidentally, and how you arrange that in your frame ... playing with the settings? adding seasoning, may enhance what you got and make a better dish, if you know what the seasoning does and how much to use, but you need more ingredients than just salt and pepper!

I agree at first shooting in manual will give you more duffers, but if you understand the exposure triangle you should know why. .

That's like saying adding salt makes things saltier, and adding pepper makes them more peppery, & that's all you need to know to be a gourmet chef!

The exposure triangle, doesn't explain why or when or how to use the ISO, Aperture and Shutter-speed controls.. just that if you do, all effect exposure value, if you change one, you have to change one or both the others to keep the same exposure value... there.. that's the exposure triangle explained... does't really help any-one much, and any-one who didn't know what it was before is probably now scratching their head wondering what an 'exposure' is! And why they might want to change aperture or shutter or ISO! And THAT is what they REALLY need to know to be able to 'season' their shots with either of these controls... and that's when it starts to get slightly more complicated!

Drilling down that bit further, and answering those queries; Exposure or Exposure Value, is essentially the 'brightness' of a photo. How light or dark it is. ISO is the sensitivity of the film or electronic 'sensor', and says how much light you need to make an exposure of a certain brightness. The Shutter-Speed, controls how long you let light to the film or sensor. longer the shutter speed, more light you get, the more 'exposure'; your picture gets brighter. Aperture is a 'tap' in the lens, a hole that can be made bigger or smaller to let in more or less light, again, making picture brighter or darker... and STILL this doesn't explain to any-one how these will change the 'look' of their pictures, other than changing the exposure, or brightness, that, NOW they are confused, because you have said they need to keep that the same!

So, they can change anything they like, but if they do they have to change something else to keep it the same.. so why change anything....AND we have more and more questions, and have to drill-down even further, explaining how ISO setting effects noise, and Shutter-Speed controls motion freezing or blurr, and the aperture effects the Depth of Field, and what? sorry? WHAT does that do to my photo? HOW does that change the 'look'?

And we have to drill down even further, in ever more detail, to each in turn! And each in turn, begs more questions begging more explanations to go round and round in circles, getting ever 'deeper' into infinitesimally more irrelevant questions of 'style' and loosing sight of the bloomin picture we wanted to take in the fist place, chasing all the questions raised rather than answered by mention of 'the exposure triangle' that doesn't tell you how to take a better photo, or explain why you might want to make different ''manual' settings to what the camera would offer on 'auto' or even tell you how to choose settings to make on manual!

Pictures ent made by 'style', pictures are made by 'subjects'.. go take photo's of subjects... when you think they could be improved with a bit of seasoning, THEN you might want to consider whether a little salt, or perhaps a bit of pepper might make them 'better', and how.. but you HAVE to have the ingredients first, and only the photographer can go find the 'ingredients' and put them in the camera, it wont do that for you; BUT it can cook them, and it CAN season them, how it thinks you probably will want them seasoned..and do a pretty damn good job of it... so LET IT! Do the bit the camera cant.. and get good ingredients!

Jeez, Our Kev here was having a tough enough time trying to make his mind up between three camera bodies. When he realised he had to choose a lens as well, and was presented with five to select from he near had apoplexy! And latest seems to suggest that he abdicated even that, and took the only choice he was offered in the shop on the day! Give him two dozen possible aperture settings, a three dozen dozen possible shutter speed settings in 1/3 stop increments, the ten ISO settings to make a choice between?!? He's likely to go into melt down! And its completely unnecessary. Keep It Simple. Don't make matters more complicated than they need be, sooner than they need be!

 

[snerkler]

Little or on control over the look? Do me a pistachio & cherry!
Sorry, its seasoning. You don't 'make' a photo 'in' the camera, twiddling knobs and buttons. You make a photo in what's outside the camera, what you put there deliberately, or what's there incidentally, and how you arrange that in your frame ... playing with the settings? adding seasoning, may enhance what you got and make a better dish, if you know what the seasoning does and how much to use, but you need more ingredients than just salt and pepper!

That's like saying adding salt makes things saltier, and adding pepper makes them more peppery, & that's all you need to know to be a gourmet chef!

The exposure triangle, doesn't explain why or when or how to use the ISO, Aperture and Shutter-speed controls.. just that if you do, all effect exposure value, if you change one, you have to change one or both the others to keep the same exposure value... there.. that's the exposure triangle explained... does't really help any-one much, and any-one who didn't know what it was before is probably now scratching their head wondering what an 'exposure' is! And why they might want to change aperture or shutter or ISO! And THAT is what they REALLY need to know to be able to 'season' their shots with either of these controls... and that's when it starts to get slightly more complicated!

Drilling down that bit further, and answering those queries; Exposure or Exposure Value, is essentially the 'brightness' of a photo. How light or dark it is. ISO is the sensitivity of the film or electronic 'sensor', and says how much light you need to make an exposure of a certain brightness. The Shutter-Speed, controls how long you let light to the film or sensor. longer the shutter speed, more light you get, the more 'exposure'; your picture gets brighter. Aperture is a 'tap' in the lens, a hole that can be made bigger or smaller to let in more or less light, again, making picture brighter or darker... and STILL this doesn't explain to any-one how these will change the 'look' of their pictures, other than changing the exposure, or brightness, that, NOW they are confused, because you have said they need to keep that the same!

So, they can change anything they like, but if they do they have to change something else to keep it the same.. so why change anything....AND we have more and more questions, and have to drill-down even further, explaining how ISO setting effects noise, and Shutter-Speed controls motion freezing or blurr, and the aperture effects the Depth of Field, and what? sorry? WHAT does that do to my photo? HOW does that change the 'look'?

And we have to drill down even further, in ever more detail, to each in turn! And each in turn, begs more questions begging more explanations to go round and round in circles, getting ever 'deeper' into infinitesimally more irrelevant questions of 'style' and loosing sight of the bloomin picture we wanted to take in the fist place, chasing all the questions raised rather than answered by mention of 'the exposure triangle' that doesn't tell you how to take a better photo, or explain why you might want to make different ''manual' settings to what the camera would offer on 'auto' or even tell you how to choose settings to make on manual!

Pictures ent made by 'style', pictures are made by 'subjects'.. go take photo's of subjects... when you think they could be improved with a bit of seasoning, THEN you might want to consider whether a little salt, or perhaps a bit of pepper might make them 'better', and how.. but you HAVE to have the ingredients first, and only the photographer can go find the 'ingredients' and put them in the camera, it wont do that for you; BUT it can cook them, and it CAN season them, how it thinks you probably will want them seasoned..and do a pretty damn good job of it... so LET IT! Do the bit the camera cant.. and get good ingredients!

Jeez, Our Kev here was having a tough enough time trying to make his mind up between three camera bodies. When he realised he had to choose a lens as well, and was presented with five to select from he near had apoplexy! And latest seems to suggest that he abdicated even that, and took the only choice he was offered in the shop on the day! Give him two dozen possible aperture settings, a three dozen dozen possible shutter speed settings in 1/3 stop increments, the ten ISO settings to make a choice between?!? He's likely to go into melt down! And its completely unnecessary. Keep It Simple. Don't make matters more complicated than they need be, sooner than they need be!

TBH I'm not going to bother dissecting this, folk can make their own minds up. If you don't think learning exposure and the exposure triangle (and yes it's a given this means learning what each aspect does, I thought this was a given tbh) is important then great, for me it's very important. And no, I don't think it's overwhelming either.

Just for the record, I'm not nor ever said it's THE most important thing, but still extremely important imo. For example, a friend of mine using auto couldn't understand why pics of their kids were blurry. I looked at the EXIF, shutter speed was 1/30. Had they known the exposure triangle, understood what each component did they would have been able to work out that the camera was choosing a shutter speed that was too slow. Is this salt/pepper or a garnish? No it's the difference between getting a useable shot and one that isn't.

 

[Phil V]

TBH I'm not going to bother dissecting this, folk can make their own minds up. If you don't think learning exposure and the exposure triangle (and yes it's a given this means learning what each aspect does, I thought this was a given tbh) is important then great, for me it's very important. And no, I don't think it's overwhelming either.

Just for the record, I'm not nor ever said it's THE most important thing, but still extremely important imo. For example, a friend of mine using auto couldn't understand why pics of their kids were blurry. I looked at the EXIF, shutter speed was 1/30. Had they known the exposure triangle, understood what each component did they would have been able to work out that the camera was choosing a shutter speed that was too slow. Is this salt/pepper or a garnish? No it's the difference between getting a useable shot and one that isn't.

Just because 'learn manual' presses my buttons...

As far as exposure is concerned:
1. Learn what your meter is reading
2. Learn what the different settings affect
3. Learn how they interact with each other - actually trivial if you've grasped 1 and 2.

People jump straight to the exposure triangle as if it's the principal that everything hangs off, it's not, correct exposure is the key that the triangle hangs off.

And only the green box mode is to be avoided, any of the intelligent auto modes PAS are worth using.

 

[snerkler]

Just because 'learn manual' presses my buttons...

As far as exposure is concerned:
1. Learn what your meter is reading
2. Learn what the different settings affect
3. Learn how they interact with each other - actually trivial if you've grasped 1 and 2.

People jump straight to the exposure triangle as if it's the principal that everything hangs off, it's not, correct exposure is the key that the triangle hangs off.

And only the green box mode is to be avoided, any of the intelligent auto modes PAS are worth using.

Agreed

 

[StewartR]

For example, a friend of mine using auto couldn't understand why pics of their kids were blurry. I looked at the EXIF, shutter speed was 1/30. Had they known the exposure triangle, understood what each component did they would have been able to work out that the camera was choosing a shutter speed that was too slow.

That's debatable, at least, surely. If you don't know that blurry pictures are caused by having a shutter speed that's too slow, I don't see how understanding the exposure triangle will help you.

 

[snerkler]

That's debatable, at least, surely. If you don't know that blurry pictures are caused by having a shutter speed that's too slow, I don't see how understanding the exposure triangle will help you.

Err, that's what learning the exposure triangle does, teaches you what each element does and therefore tells you that faster shutters freeze motion.