Beginner LED Studio Lights Vs Flash - Which Is Really Better?

I think this is excellent, thanks for posting.

I found it quite by accident and was pleasantly surprised when I watched it as YouTube has so many 'experts' that either talk out of their backside or talk a lot, but say nothing at all. :rolleyes:
 
I've always found Karl's videos informative and I like his presenting style

I watched a lot of his videos a couple of years ago and learned a lot from them - worth a watch for anyone interested in studio work that's for sure. :)
 
I think this is excellent, thanks for posting.
So much so, that I've now edited my own tutorial on the subject and included the video https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/tutorials/led-lights-or-flash.152/

One of the many things that I like about Karl Taylor is his correct use of the SI term joules, which hardly anyone else does.

Yep - I mean, yes, one Watt-Second is one Joule, but "Watt-Seconds" is a bit like measuring distance in "miles per hour-hours". I like Karl. His live shoots, Q&A and critique shows are a bit like a photography version of Kitchen Nightmares.
 
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Very good.

His video on parabolic softboxes is great too. I think it's his deadpan delivery. He has a style and he's sticking to it
 
Very good.

His video on parabolic softboxes is great too. I think it's his deadpan delivery. He has a style and he's sticking to it
Its funny - he only does that "reading a prepared statement in court" voice on those short YouTube videos. On his ~2 hour live shoots he's much more natural. In fact sometimes it's downright hilarious. I have my popcorn ready for when someone invariably asks (for the 100th time) when there's a diffusion panel and projected gradients: "can I do it with a softbox". You can almost hear the collective "Oohhh" from the crowd, as we wait for the inevitable Kitchen Nightmares style response :)
 
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Yes, Karl Taylor is a competent photographer and presenter. He's become a celebrity because of his own abilities, unlike most "celebrity" photographers whose only claim to fame is that theyr'e good at conning people.

There is of course a backstory - there always is - and he has his commercial interests (Bron and his training courses) but I don't think that this detracts from the value of his videos.

Its funny - he only does that "reading a prepared statement in court" voice on those short YouTube videos. On his ~2 hour live shoots he's much more natural. In fact sometimes it's downright hilarious. I have my popcorn ready for when someone invariably asks (for the 100th time) when there's a diffusion panel and projected gradients: "can I do it with a softbox". You can almost hear the collective "Oohhh" from the crowd, as we wait for the inevitable Kitchen Nightmares style response :)
One of the single biggest problems with photography today is that people tend to have too much equipment and not enough knowledge, and tend to see equipment as an alternative to knowledge, and they're always buying gadgets that they don't need instead of learning how to manage without them. Softboxes are one of my pet hates, in the sense that although they're extremely useful, they can never replace a basic understanding of physics and they can never replicate the effect of a graduated diffuser - basically a silk that's been partially lit to create a specific effect, for example when creating specific graduated highlights on highly reflective complex shapes such as the front element of a lens.

People of my generation didn't have softboxes at all until about the 70's because the didn't exist, so we had to learn the physics and manage with silks, scrims and other home-made tools. And when softboxes did come about they were made from sheet steel and ground glass, with a number of flash heads permanently fitted inside, and were adjusted by means of pulley blocks.

Chimera created what we would now recognise as softboxes in the early 80's, and they did a great job, this link may be of interest https://chimeralighting.com/the-history-of-chimera/ but since then their products have been copied innumerable times and the cheap ones that most people buy are just copies of copies of copies and they're total junk, because not only have the manufacturers cheapened them as much as possible, they've also made them without actually understanding why they need to be designed well. So, a false market was then created for oddities such as "parabolic" softboxes. They do nothing, but give people something to spend their money on:)
 
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Thanks for posting. Useful for those who have neither, and looking for a balanced viewpoint for starting out with artificial lighting.
 
I have three LED panels with 480 LEDs each that I frequently use for small product shooting, or set up to make videos in my small studio. For product photography constant light helps you to see faster how well your lighting it to get the shadows, etc. just right. For videos in my studio, they are barely adequate for video work and I need to buy more, but the demand for studio videos has ended with my daughter-in-law's closing of her business because of COVID. This may change if she re-opens the business, and if it does, I might be buying more LED panels. The panels provide nice soft light, but just not nearly enough of it with just the three that I have in the 18 X 26' shooting room of my studio. TV broadcast stations have many lights, usually placed in a U shape and almost side by side around the shooting area.

Charley
 
I have three LED panels with 480 LEDs each that I frequently use for small product shooting, or set up to make videos in my small studio. For product photography constant light helps you to see faster how well your lighting it to get the shadows, etc. just right. For videos in my studio, they are barely adequate for video work and I need to buy more, but the demand for studio videos has ended with my daughter-in-law's closing of her business because of COVID. This may change if she re-opens the business, and if it does, I might be buying more LED panels. The panels provide nice soft light, but just not nearly enough of it with just the three that I have in the 18 X 26' shooting room of my studio. TV broadcast stations have many lights, usually placed in a U shape and almost side by side around the shooting area.

Charley
LED lights are perfect for video, that's what they're for. There's a vast range available for video, from the cheap and nasty to the horrifically expensive and incredibly good pro ranges.

They are now marketed heavily for still photography but they are nearly always the worst possible choice for this, see https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/tutorials/led-lights-or-flash.152/
There's a backstory here - Godox now dominates the flash lighting world and of course makes LED products too, and accessories such as (poor) softboxes, but back in the days when their brilliant marketing strategy began to work in China, they concentrated on flash and most of their competitors found themselves with nowhere to go and virtually no customers so, naturally enough, they diversified - into LED light panels and similar, mainly of pretty awful quality - of course employed (mainly YouTube) "influencers" to lie about their qualities. And, if people repeat a lie often enough then people start to believe them, but the truth remains true.

When soft light is needed in the studio, LED light panels are severely restricted by their size and most of them, placed so close that they're almost touching the subject, cannot produce soft light on any subject bigger than about 2" x 3". And when harder light is needed, the lack of modifiers again severely restricts their usefulness because the only way of making the light really hard is to move them so far away that they don't have enough power to do the job.

As for the WYSIWYG benefit, this is real but unimportant - just either exclude nearly all ambient light, to get a good indication of the shadows, or allow for the weakening visual effect of the ambient light and check with test shots - not any kind of a problem when we shoot on digital..
 
Garry, I agree with you. The continuous LEDs and light panels really aren't ready for still photography, at least not yet. About the only time that I use mine for still photography is when lighting a 24" cube product shooting translucent box from the outside. Even then, it takes almost all of the available power of the three 480 LED panels located almost touching the box to light the box evenly. For lighting to make videos in my small studio I can barely get by with three of these panels, and will likely need at least two, possibly 4 more to get the lighting adequate for video work. The three that I have certainly isn't enough, but they are what I started with. If I get back into video in the studio I'll likely need to invest in more, or a different kind of constant light source.

Charley
 
Notwithstanding the comments above, LED panels are actually used relatively commonly in headshot photography. Have a look at the Westcott Flex Kit, which is the one favoured by many.
 
Notwithstanding the comments above, LED panels are actually used relatively commonly in headshot photography. Have a look at the Westcott Flex Kit, which is the one favoured by many.

It is and I think this is purely down to Peter Hurley tbh. Peter, by his own admission is not a technical person - he shot headshots purely using the north facing window light he just happened to have in his first studio for years, and then wanted something to replicate this "look" with, on location. He started to use Kinoflo tubes - ie lighting gear used on movie sets, and these worked for him. His skillset was not primarily in lighting, but in the rapport he builds with his clients. He's an exceptional headshot photographer, and became well known. He got hired by education and training outfits like Kelby One and went on to write a book on headshots, and found his own Headshot Academy - the "Headshot Crew". It's a bit cult-like tbh and his followers will do whatever he does. I listened in on eof his "free" sessions once, and he spent most of them time selling kit he had his name on, and his education programme. Westcott who were already marketing the Flex Panels to the movie industry, approached Hurley and persuaded him to try their panels. Of course they worked just as well as the tubes and were a whole lot more portable. He put his name on a four panel kit. https://www.fotodeals.co.uk/westcott-peter-hurley-4-light-flex-kit-7537-ag

Yes you read that right: 4 panels (and some tat) for £6200 actual Earth pounds.

Take a look at this review from fstoppers where they claim it is "the best light kit we have ever used":-
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dso5xilIdY


"I am standing in front of these 4 panels at full power right now and I have a headache. They are so bright" - a big downside for continuous lights - it's very uncomfortable for the client.
Meanwhile, the screen shows the exposure for the camera: 1/30th of a second, f/8 at Iso 100. So - not very much light at all then really. You could shoot at 1/120th. and f/4 I suppose, but that's still a bit slow to guarantee sharp shots of human subjects. Or just make the room darker and crank the gain up on the sensor - which also amplifies the noise.

Now these are genuinely useful in the movie industry - and you can see some of that utility on the FotoDeals webpage above, sticking them to the sunblinds in cars for example. But for headshots? Unless you're shooting in a wardrobe, you can bring something bigger into play. Westcott of course, have previous for this sort of thing "from the company that brought you the Ice Light" - an underpowered, over-priced light stick.

However, neither the outrageous price or the technical reasons why they're not that suitable for headshots matters, and to your point Tony: they are used extensively by headshot photographers. Because Peter Hurley uses them. His influence is remarkable.

I use Peter Hurley's triangular light setup for corp headshots - but mine consist of 2 30x120 strip softboxes with 600J lights in them, and a white reflector at the bottom. Same lighting result, just loads more of it, giving very high quality files. Plus my subjects are not blinded at the end of the session :)
 
My main photography is events, where people are doing their thing and I am snapping, no posing, no flash etc. Capturing the essence of an evening or event is within my comfort zone! So added lighting is not something that sits easy with me.

Occasionally a client wants some more structured shots, my instincts tell me that to add light I should use continuous, because of my lack of experience I can see what effect my placement of that light is having. But I can see pics using led panels are almost always sub par compared to flash. There have been occasions whereI have added flash to a scene and made it a lot worse!

I did have a day in a studio with an excellent photographer and he put a few strobes in position and it was nigh on perfect first hit. It was very impressive and I guess that knowledge only comes with regular use, something I don't have as I split my time between design, photos and video.

When I do product photography (5-6 times a year) I now always shoot with the strobes, and usually take my time playing and setting up. It is not time efficient but important lessons are learnt each time. I will get there (eventually!).

It is funny how sometimes instincts are the opposite of what should be done, I guess it is the easy and comfortable option, but not the best option!
 
It is funny how sometimes instincts are the opposite of what should be done, I guess it is the easy and comfortable option, but not the best option!
It's strange, but instincts based on experience are usually right - for example the instinct to run away from danger, the instinct to cover the brake pedal for no apparent reason when something doesn't quite feel right - but the instinct to use totally inadequate continuous lighting is normally based on lack of experience, and it just doesn't make sense.

I'm probably one of the few on here who was shooting professionally before electronic flash was available, and the continuous lighting that was available at that time was terrible. It was also virtually impossible to modify the light effectively, partly because we had to make all of the modifiers ourselves, partly because they caught fire . . . So, when horrifically expensive and potentially dangerous flash became available I was one of the very early adopters. There was always the drawback that the modelling lamps were never bright enough to give a true indication of the depth of shadows, but a mixture of blacking out the studio, using polaroids and using experience took care of that, and of course once we started using digital the problem went away completely.

But, (studio) flash is now wonderful, cheap and easy, and yet there are so many people who still think that continuous lighting is a good thing. My personal view is that most of the continuous lighting sold for photography is seriously overpriced and the sellers are able to spend a fortune on deceptive marketing, which many of us fall for.
 
It is and I think this is purely down to Peter Hurley tbh. Peter, by his own admission is not a technical person - he shot headshots purely using the north facing window light he just happened to have in his first studio for years, and then wanted something to replicate this "look" with, on location. He started to use Kinoflo tubes - ie lighting gear used on movie sets, and these worked for him. His skillset was not primarily in lighting, but in the rapport he builds with his clients. He's an exceptional headshot photographer, and became well known. He got hired by education and training outfits like Kelby One and went on to write a book on headshots, and found his own Headshot Academy - the "Headshot Crew". It's a bit cult-like tbh and his followers will do whatever he does. I listened in on eof his "free" sessions once, and he spent most of them time selling kit he had his name on, and his education programme. Westcott who were already marketing the Flex Panels to the movie industry, approached Hurley and persuaded him to try their panels. Of course they worked just as well as the tubes and were a whole lot more portable. He put his name on a four panel kit. https://www.fotodeals.co.uk/westcott-peter-hurley-4-light-flex-kit-7537-ag

Yes you read that right: 4 panels (and some tat) for £6200 actual Earth pounds.

Take a look at this review from fstoppers where they claim it is "the best light kit we have ever used":-
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dso5xilIdY


"I am standing in front of these 4 panels at full power right now and I have a headache. They are so bright" - a big downside for continuous lights - it's very uncomfortable for the client.
Meanwhile, the screen shows the exposure for the camera: 1/30th of a second, f/8 at Iso 100. So - not very much light at all then really. You could shoot at 1/120th. and f/4 I suppose, but that's still a bit slow to guarantee sharp shots of human subjects. Or just make the room darker and crank the gain up on the sensor - which also amplifies the noise.

Now these are genuinely useful in the movie industry - and you can see some of that utility on the FotoDeals webpage above, sticking them to the sunblinds in cars for example. But for headshots? Unless you're shooting in a wardrobe, you can bring something bigger into play. Westcott of course, have previous for this sort of thing "from the company that brought you the Ice Light" - an underpowered, over-priced light stick.

However, neither the outrageous price or the technical reasons why they're not that suitable for headshots matters, and to your point Tony: they are used extensively by headshot photographers. Because Peter Hurley uses them. His influence is remarkable.

I use Peter Hurley's triangular light setup for corp headshots - but mine consist of 2 30x120 strip softboxes with 600J lights in them, and a white reflector at the bottom. Same lighting result, just loads more of it, giving very high quality files. Plus my subjects are not blinded at the end of the session :)
I use Peter’s lighting setups too, but stick Elinchrom heads into strip boxes, as do many Crew members (well, not all Elinchrom, obviously). I’m Crew member myself, in fact, and personally think it’s an amazing community with a commitment to providing support and mentoring that I’ve not encountered anywhere else. Perhaps not for everyone, though, and I understand that.

I totally take your point regarding the lights, by the way, Owen. My intention was simply to offer a little balance, but from a personal perspective I’ll be sticking with flash.
 
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One thing that continuous lights do for portraits is to close down the pupils of the eyes so you can see their natural colour (eg Peter Hurley). This is a major advantage IMHO, but apart from that everything else with continuous lights is downsides, mostly serious.

However, if you have a studio flash head with a good modelling bulb (eg 150W-plus halogen or 30W-plus LED) that will also be bright enough to do the pupils trick, with no downsides. Best of both worlds. LEDs also have daylight-ish colour balance (usually) and low heat, so more bonuses there.
 
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I use Peter’s lighting setups too, but stick Elinchrom heads in the strip boxes, as do many HSC members (well, not all Elinchrom, obviously). I’m one myself, in fact, and personally think it’s an amazing community with a commitment to providing support and mentoring that I’ve not encountered anywhere else. Perhaps not for everyone, though, and I understand that.

I totally take your point regarding the lights, by the way, Owen. My intention was simply to offer a little balance, but from a personal perspective I’ll be sticking with flash.

Yep the Headshot Crew definitely works for a lot of people Tony, and so do those panels, but they cost far too much for what they are, and there are better solutions out there. I'm sure many of the Crew will, like you, work this out, however I do feel for the inexperienced who sign up and maybe fall into laying out £6200 on 4 LED panels thinking they really need those and nothing else will do. I'm not a headshot specialist by any means, however I learnt a great deal from Peter's book, and he is a very good photographer. Best to just skip the gear recommendations though I think - where sponsorship is detected :p
 
Yep the Headshot Crew definitely works for a lot of people Tony, and so do those panels, but they cost far too much for what they are, and there are better solutions out there. I'm sure many of the Crew will, like you, work this out, however I do feel for the inexperienced who sign up and maybe fall into laying out £6200 on 4 LED panels thinking they really need those and nothing else will do. I'm not a headshot specialist by any means, however I learnt a great deal from Peter's book, and he is a very good photographer. Best to just skip the gear recommendations though I think - where sponsorship is detected :p
I think that it all comes down to the sponsorship thing. Some people have b******t antennae but many don't, that's why it works so well. There was a time, long long ago, when photographers who were sponsored by manufacturers simply used the equipment in their videos, tutorials and demos and didn't even mention the brand, leaving it to the audience to work out that if a successful photographer chose to use that particular brand then it was likely to be a good one. However, things have changed for the worse and sadly a lot of people now make a very good living selling merchandise, training courses and basically conning people. Obviously I'm not saying that all of these salespeople are bad photographers - many are extremely talented - but I think we all know of some who are far better at presenting themselves and selling products than photography.
 
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