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Because you don't like my opinion? Some forum this is. As long as you agree with Gary, if not your a troll.[emoji107]
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Local Paper...
- Thread starter djaphoto
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Any mods out there monitoring this. Feel free to delete any opinion that goes against Mr Coyle's thinking. That way we would have a great forum.
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There seems to be two schools of thought here..
Those who will donate photos for nothing
Those who will offer photos for payment
It strikes me the whole 'debate' has gone around in circles and caused a lot of anguish
My view, depending upon who you are representing, is do what you are comfortable with
My son has just informed me that a certain Indian gentleman who used to play for us is now the captain of India....!!!!
Do I have a picture of him? NO! Damm
Those who will donate photos for nothing
Those who will offer photos for payment
It strikes me the whole 'debate' has gone around in circles and caused a lot of anguish
My view, depending upon who you are representing, is do what you are comfortable with
My son has just informed me that a certain Indian gentleman who used to play for us is now the captain of India....!!!!
Do I have a picture of him? NO! Damm
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Nope, because you've got past form for trolling in here and in the Business Forum.
Not the first time and I suspect it won't be the last.
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Not agreeing is not trolling.
kelack
TPer Emerita - But she's back!
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Not sure why the request for moderators has been asked for. Seems to be plenty in here 
Stop accusing people of being trolls. If we decide there is an instance of trolling, the staff will deal with it ourselves.
Get back on track with the topic, please. Ta muchly
Stop accusing people of being trolls. If we decide there is an instance of trolling, the staff will deal with it ourselves.
Get back on track with the topic, please. Ta muchly
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What was the topic??Not sure why the request for moderators has been asked for. Seems to be plenty in here
Stop accusing people of being trolls. If we decide there is an instance of trolling, the staff will deal with it ourselves.
Get back on track with the topic, please. Ta muchly
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I freelanced for a local paper for years. They also employed a staff photographer. I covered local football - and was paid for it - almost every week. Not now. The staff photographer was made redundant and no more freelance - why? Because muppets were sending in pictures to be used for free. Mostly rubbish too but they don't care about that as long as they are free. That's what's so wrong about what you're doing! How would you like if I did you're job and didn't charge for it as it was my hobby and you were put on the dole?
Adapt and move on.
Of course it's crap if you can't, but that's just the way it is. A great many people make a living from photography still, they apply their knowledge and skills to change their business model, look for new niches, or are just so bloody great or hard working that they make it work. If you can't make money today doing exactly what you did 20 years ago then change yourself, don't expect others to stop doing stuff just so you don't have to.
Stuff changes. My old neighbour was a TV & Video repair man, he's had to find something else to do as technology has outpaced him. I used to get paid for writing software, now I spend a lot of time pushing the free stuff that's out there. Photography is no different, it's not special or protected or under any more threat than other professions out there. Car production, largely automated, fewer jobs; Cloth weaving? Well the industrial revolution put pay to that. It's been happening for years and it will continue to do so.
I've never sent anything in to the local paper. Not because I want to protect the jobs of staffers, but because I can't be arsed to, but I will defend the rights of 'muppets' to do so it they want.
Gary Coyle
In Memoriam
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I seriously love that last line David, quality post of the week
I seriously love that last line David, quality post of the week
Perhaps it's because you remind me of the archaic closed and exclusionary approach of yesteryear. Let's protect the special snowflakes who don't want to move with the times, and stop others hurting their feelings because what they do is sooo very special.
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You should be in front of a lectern not posting on here. You're wasting your talents David
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Furtim has this spot on. The market has been disrupted just as Blockbuster has been disrupted by Netflix, just as London Cabbies have been disrupted by Uber. You can complain about it and debate the fairness of it all but I believe it is not going to go away therefore you need to differentiate in some way to show the value of your shots.
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Agree. Things move on.
Gary Coyle
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Last time I looked Netflix and Uber both charged for their services.
You can't compare people giving work away for free with no possibility of payment now or in the future from that same source with two companies who charge, albeit in a different way to the previous established business models.
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Great - lots of *insight* into market disruption.
Now pray tell how you differentiate against a competitor who does want, need, or know how to charge, and a client who would happily take poorer quality work, on longer timescales than actually pay.
Professionals have innovated with higher quality (overall image and the technical quality), faster workflow, improved captioning, speed of delivery, and so given all of those adaptions and then the further differentiation of professional conduct, journalistic integrity, and reliability what is *your* suggestion as to their next step to service that market ?
Because charging zero obviously isn't the answer.
Of course one answer is you walk away from it, and service a client who will pay (Nationals, Magazines, Corporate clients, Social photography) or indeed hang up your camera ..... but I'd love to hear a suggestion from you or indeed anybody how you compete in that marketplace against people who don't charge and stop laying the blame on lazy or stuck-in-their-ways established professionals.
Because it's really easy to walk into a thread and lay down that accusation or challenge and a heck of a lot harder to solve the problem.
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If a client is prepared to take lower quality work over an extended timescale, then that's what you supply. If they want that for nothing, and you're not willing to do it for free, then don't.
Professionals have innovated, and thats to be both commended and expected. Local papers have too. Most are now free. There isn't really any competition locally so there's no real benefit to doing anything other than keeping costs to a minimum while maximising advertising revenue.
They will post as many papers through the letter boxes of locals as they care to print regardless of whether the photo of the local derby on the back page is taken with an iPhone by little Johnny's dad or David Bailey.
Of course there are exceptions to this, some local rags still charge and they do need to do something to differentiate themselves from the free papers. I would have thought there would be some market here for paid shots, although perhaps speed of workflow are not so important on Weekly circulations.
If free images are meeting the needs of the client, and the client is meeting the needs of the customer, be it an advertiser or a consumer, then all you can really do is walk away.
If you have the opportunity to influence the customers, that's an option. If a pay service can get customers while competing with a free service, it must be for a reason. Perhaps that's higher quality content or perhaps is a lack of adverts. Perhaps it's because of comprehensive coverage of the more obscure matches.
What can you do to influence the consumer?
Speaking as a consumer, I don't rely on papers for coverage of any sport I'm interested in. When my kid used to play locally, I'd go myself. Everyone there had a camera of sorts, even if it's a phone, so where's the value to a consumer in those cases?
If there's no value to a consumer, then it's not going to be of value to the publisher.
I'm presuming that as you go higher up the leagues there is a degree of restriction in terms of access / accreditation which changes this dynamic and therefore I presume there is more of a market?
If true, the differentiator is getting yourself in a position to take the photos in the first place. Another would be the simplicity by which others can buy them. The number of events you routinely cover (so perhaps picture editors will reach for you first etc).
At the end of the day some markets have gone. There realistically isn't anything you can do to put that genie back in the bottle and if that's the case, move on.
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I certainly did not mean to lay down any accusations or challenges, I was just trying to point out facts in the sense that some markets have gone and there may not be next steps or further iterations, but a paradigm shift that is required to make money from photography.
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Yawn! It seems the same old topic comes up again and again with all the same arguments. There's a lot of professional sports photographers that are helping to destroy the profession as it stands today. It's a race to the bottom with everyone undercutting each other. I've heard some real horror stories of people being paid pounds and pence for pretty decent publications by big established companies. Clearly they're gambling on the numbers game but it's a sign of how the industry is. I'm not prepared to sell my soul quite yet as I value my own images.
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Things change and you have to accept it. How many newspapers have staff photographers now that cover professional sport - not too many I suspect.
A lot of people on here have benefited from that & get to photograph and make 'some' money from pro sport when they wouldn't have previously.
As Dave above says, with all the undercutting it is getting harder and harder to make 'some' money unless you are with one of the agencies doing the deals - e.g. Getty/Rex/BPI etc.
The coverage has also changed a lot in the last 2 to 3 years. Look at the Daily Star, they hardly do any Championship/Leagues 1 &2 anymore. Look at The Mail Online - I used to get loads published on there and now nothing, as they have their deals, with the agencies above. They have pressure to make savings and that is how they have done it.
I got sodden wet at Barnsley last sat - the only 2 pics used were both from REX. Tough titty for me I am afraid.
A mate of mine from the same agency as mine had back page of The Express today from the Arsenal game last night and a couple of back pages 2 weeks ago - again from Arsenal, so it's not all bad news.
In relation to the local rags - opportunities for payment is continuing to whither and will do so, as they lose circulation.
A lot of people on here have benefited from that & get to photograph and make 'some' money from pro sport when they wouldn't have previously.
As Dave above says, with all the undercutting it is getting harder and harder to make 'some' money unless you are with one of the agencies doing the deals - e.g. Getty/Rex/BPI etc.
The coverage has also changed a lot in the last 2 to 3 years. Look at the Daily Star, they hardly do any Championship/Leagues 1 &2 anymore. Look at The Mail Online - I used to get loads published on there and now nothing, as they have their deals, with the agencies above. They have pressure to make savings and that is how they have done it.
I got sodden wet at Barnsley last sat - the only 2 pics used were both from REX. Tough titty for me I am afraid.
A mate of mine from the same agency as mine had back page of The Express today from the Arsenal game last night and a couple of back pages 2 weeks ago - again from Arsenal, so it's not all bad news.
In relation to the local rags - opportunities for payment is continuing to whither and will do so, as they lose circulation.